SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I agree, Naked Empire was terrible, i haven't read a book by Goodkind after that one.

Kevin wrote:I guess you are not pro-war? That was what Naked Empire was all about. Terry was trying to let everyone know how he felt about the current war situation, that is one thing I agree with him. The way he let it out through Richard's speech gives me a way to express to others why war is needed.

[..."

Depends on the war. I just just don't like proseletizing of any kind. I agree with Mark. If an author wants to write about a specific theme or ideology this should be part of the plot, and not take the form of speeches by the characters.

Deedee wrote: "Interesting topic!


In [book:Gardens of the Moo..."In Gardens of the Moon, every single female is cowardly, deceitful, untrustworthy, sneaky, and (oftentimes) evil. It's the sort of book I'd imagine a guy to write who had just been dumped by his girlfriend.

Wow this so surprises me, as one of the things that impresses me about Erikson is that females are so EQUAL in his world. I actually went and looked thru my book trying to figure out to whom you might be refering. The EMpress fits that bill, and Simtal was a courtesan, but otherwise I thought they were all quite well rounded.
It's so funny how different people can have such different reads on things!

I've rather enjoyed the two Goodkind books that I've read. But honestly, I think that my hesitation to finish up the series comes a great part from all that I'm hearing about how he turns preachy. For me, along the lines of what Marc said, I don't particularly enjoy books with an agenda. I prefer that the author keeps their political and religious views out of the story.

So, if Heinlein, Koontz, & Moorcock Goodkind does do that, I'm afraid it will ruin the enjoyment of the Sword of Truth series for me.

Chris wrote: "I prefer that the author keeps their political and religious views out of the story."

I don't mind that an author has an agenda, I mind that he presents it clumsily. In fantasy, at least, religious and political views are hard to put in since none of those things exist in the worlds my stories are in. It's kind of interesting as a writer, to have to understand the viewpoint of a character in order to be able to write it properly. Otherwise you have a straw man/paper tiger character and who cares about those. It's something of a giveaway as to the author's own views and I've always felt that the author should be invisible in his book.

Oh, I'm fine with that, Marc. It's the invisible author I'm looking for too. I actually enjoy books with politics and religion, I just don't want to read one where the author is pushing one onto me.

Even in life, I've always enjoyed the study of religion, to better understand the different ones out there. Politics too, just not as much. But I've never liked being preached to. I like to study at my own pace, from an objective view.

So I probably worded my first post badly. The views and ideas are fine, as long as I'm not told what I should believe.

Chris wrote: "Oh, I'm fine with that, Marc. It's the invisible author I'm looking for too. I actually enjoy books with politics and religion, I just don't want to read one where the author is pushing one onto me..."

Then you should be reading my books!
The Flame in the Bowl: Unbinding the Stone
A Warrior Made (Flame in the Bowl Book Two)

Funny topic. There definitely ARE some surprises here. Personally I was surprised to see Tigana thrown out... haven't read it, but it has come so highly recommend by so many and it's near the top of my to-read list.

I love that we all have different tastes. =)

I rarely even make it halfway into a book that I don't like, so the only on I feel I can fairly include of the top of my head is, The Celestine Prophecy.

Why? Unnecessary dribble to me... might have been interesting to others. I marked it as two stars in my review which was pretty nice of me, but I personally hate the book because of all the college students who find themselves ridiculously-enlightened-and-ready-to-force-their-easily-obtained truths-onto-you after reading it. Oh, and the writing style sux.

Yeah, I'll have to do that, Marc....

As far as Tigana goes, I loved that book. To me, not liking a character or set of characters doesn't mean that the book is poorly written. I do find that I usually need to like some characters to get the most enjoyment out of it, though.

Another one for the list is I Am Number Four. If you are older than 16 stay FAR away. It's cliche upon cliche and feels like a paint by numbers book mixed with color coordination courtesy of "Power Rangers".

My review here

I found The Road not so much bad as too depressing to finish. Which may be a little odd, as I found reading No Country For Old Men to be a fine experience.

I remember disliking Tigana, but that was ages ago, so I don't really remember why I disliked it.

As for disliking characters not meaning that a book is bad ... I guess it depends. If I dislike characters in the sense that if I met them in real life I would loathe them, then no. If I dislike the characters because I think they are two-dimensional or basically unrealistic or something, then that's certainly a strike against the book for me.

Touching on something that was discussed in the thread earlier ... I don't generally regret the time I spent on bad books. Usually it was obvious that they were bad and I didn't stop for some reason, though I could have. I do kind of regret the time I spent on books that proved to be "meh" or mediocre in the hopes that they would start to really grab my interest. Sometimes I think that books are like frogs - you've got to read/kiss a lot of 'em to find the good ones. ;)

Machavelli wrote: "I agree, Naked Empire was terrible, i haven't read a book by Goodkind after that one."

Don't, it kind of goes down hill in the same direction!

Ala wrote: "Anything in particular you didn't like about it?"

Story line. Just not my cup of Oolong. Bunch of POW's rotting in a Japanese prison camp and fighting among themselves. Nothing inspiring came of it.

Some people like that sort of thing, and if I recall it even got made into a movie (but I avoided it).

Marc wrote: "Deedee wrote: "I also greatly dislike Robert Heinlein's books -- Friday starts off with a female character who enjoys being gang-raped. Not sure what happens afterwards because I tossed the book th..."

A few people love to attack Heinlein, possibly because he's the giant of the genre and attacking someone who is that popular makes the attacker think s/he's too refined to wallow in the pool with the "regular" fans. And some just don't like his work.

But the fact is, that he's probably one of the most successful SF authors on the planet since Jules Verne published his first book. And the reason is that he wrote a good yarn and told it well. The opening paragraph of Friday got you going with an immediate killing (by the title character) and she was kept hopping the entire book.

The only major problem Heinlein had (besides being a conservative and an apparent agnostic) was towards the end of his life when he appeared to forget how to end a story. All his characters ended up in the same place, run by Jubal Harshaw (from "Stranger"), who I believe was his alter ego at that time.

I grew up reading his work and he was always writing to my age group (happy coincidence). If I ever write half as well as he, I'll consider myself a success.

Did he write some stinkers? Maybe one or two, but I can't think of any at this time. Again, matter of personal taste. I don't like vampire books either, yet many others do and the entertaining ones sell well.

Finished reading Children of the Thunderby John Brunner. I picked up the book because of the interesting premise of the story. The first two-thirds of the book were great. The last third, seems like Brunner ran out of steam and just wrapped up the story as quickly as he could.

Al wrote: "Story line. Just not my cup of Oolong. Bunch of POW's rotting in a Japanese prison camp and fighting among themselves. Nothing inspiri..."

I read it back in high school, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy. (view spoiler)[I do remember that there was a character who was a nobody in the war, thrust to the top of the food chain in the prison, then smacked back down to a nobody upon freeing. (hide spoiler)] That was something that I suppose spoke to me at the time. Big fish, little pond. Little fish, big pond. Impermanence of power/status/standing. Etc.

I enjoyed it, and the other Clavell novels I read then. A lot. Though, to be fair I haven't revisited them since, so my enjoyment of them may change when I do.

The Da Vinci Code
The Pillars of the Earth
What Dreams May Come

Just a few, all have boredom in common.

The Twilight Series - Too much silliness and angst. A co-worker loaned them to me and gushed about how romantic they were. I know I threw at least one book down but like a train wreck I just had to see the ending.
The Pillars of the Earth I tried to be be interested but none of the characters were remotely appealing and the author seemed bent on torturing them throughout the 7 chapters that I could get through. I finally threw the book down in disgust and walked away.
Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West I was completely bored with it.

I hated Twilight. I didn't see it as harmless fluff, it was actually presenting an incredibly unhealthy relationship as something GOOD. Your boyfriend leaves you? Well try to commit suicide and he'll come back. Oh and it's perfectly okay for him to tell you what to do all the time and set all the parameters in your relationship, and to stalk you. The writing was also just atrocious. I had better grammar skills and a larger vocabulary in 8th grade then Stephanie Meyer has as an adult "author".

I HATED THE WATCHMEN. HATED HATED HATED IT.

For non sci-fi/fantasy, I couldn't finish The Heart of Darkness. It was rambling, offensive, and horribly written. "The earth seemed unearthly." SERIOUSLY???

The two worst books I have ever read, one made me bery upset and the later I could not finish

Sandworms of Dune
Anderson and Herbet basically threw out all the Frank's previously build plots and threw them out the window in favor of their own.
Hated the ending. Absolutly hated it.
I actually took any Anderson book I had on my shelf and off to the used book store. Never reading another Dune book written by those two jokers again.

The Lost Symbol
I could not even finish it. Made The DaVinci Code read like a literary tome. While I wasnt expecting much it didn't even come close to the bar.

Lara Amber wrote: "I hated Twilight. I didn't see it as harmless fluff, it was actually presenting an incredibly unhealthy relationship as something GOOD. Your boyfriend leaves you? Well try to commit suicide and ..."

Wow, this is YA? i saw the movie and thought it was one of the most boring and ridiculous vampire movies i've ever seen. It made me not try the book. And if what you say is true than i'm glad i ignored all the recommendations. Makes me wonder why the books are so popular.

I HATED THE WATCHMEN. HATED HATED HATED IT. ..."

I have not read the book, but the movie Watchmen was really good, would give it 4 of 5 stars. You should try it.

Lara Amber wrote: "I hated Twilight. I didn't see it as harmless fluff, it was actually presenting an incredibly unhealthy relationship as something GOOD. Your boyfriend leaves you? Well try to commit suicide and ..."

I so agree! The one 'good' thing about Twilight is that it's getting people reading who otherwise wouldn't...but the message they are getting is so bad! One of my kids wanted to read them so I read through it...The Fourth is the worst...barely even makes sense,I really wanted to just throw it.

Machavelli wrote: "I HATED THE WATCHMEN. HATED HATED HATED IT. ..."

I have not read the book, but the movie Watchmen was really good, would give it 4 of 5 stars. You should try it."

Nah, the movie is pretty true to the book. If she hated the book (for reasons I can't fathom..... great book) she won't like the movie.

Ken wrote: "The two worst books I have ever read, one made me bery upset and the later I could not finish

Sandworms of Dune
Anderson and Herbet basically threw out all the Frank's previously buil..."

Could not have agreed me with you on both. They are just quick money makers to keep the fans happy.

Kevin wrote: "Could not have agreed me with you on both. They are just quick money makers to keep the fans happy. ."

Though from all I've seen, they've failed to do that.

Lara Amber wrote: "I HATED THE WATCHMEN. HATED HATED HATED IT."

I loved it, read it in the 80s, but perhaps the story is a product of it's time? Comic books weren't usually that intricate, see, and the story was significantly darker and grimmer than most comics of the time. It actually changed comics from that point forward, putting publishers, authors, and readers on notice that sharp visual storytelling was not confined to cinema.

Chris wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Could not have agreed me with you on both. They are just quick money makers to keep the fans happy. ."

Though from all I've seen, they've failed to do that."

The whole point is in Winds of Dune, writing a whole book on one event that could have taken at most as a subplot of a book was not well done at all. It should have been left the way it was.

Lara Amber has put her finger on what I don't like about Twilight. As YA literature, it has a hideous subtext. For grown women (and most of the fans are women female, though I've encountered a few male fans), I hypothesize that it pushes some of the same buttons as bodice rippers and maybe what (likely NSFW) SBTB call old-school romance.

I read Watchmen and thought it was all right. I'm not a huge comics fan so ... I don't know, but it may be that I just paid attention to what the characters and story were doing and thought the pictures were just window dressing. Looked at in that way, it perhaps didn't seem very ground-breaking.

Suzanne wrote: "stranger in a strange land- was stupid when I read it in college, and is ridiculous now, a long time later. Sex was what made this strained plot run????? Boy,how boring."

Ala wrote: "Damn. So much suckitude listed so far. So many books to avoid :P

Guess I should add one: The Once and Future King. This book just dragged so much for so long it felt as though time ha..."

Different strokes, I guess (or gadflying), but these are 2 of my favorite books of all time.

Sunshine was the worst book I have read in a long time.

Eragon was probably the most predictable book i have read and the vocabulary was terrible. You can really tell it's written by a teenager. It's incredible that someone read that book and actually made a movie out of it.

Titus Groan i never read past the first 100 pages because the authors writing style was so annoying, i had to really struggle my way trough every page, and finally i just gave up.

Machavelli wrote: "Eragon was probably the most predictable book i have read and the vocabulary was terrible. You can really tell it's written by a teenager. It's incredible that someone read that book ..."

Well, you know it is kind of like Twilight for young adults. It was written by a teenagers for teenagers. I am not trying to bash YA, but since YA begin about 10 years ago, some kids just don't go and read other section, but YA for a while, so they end up thinking Eragon is pretty cool, but not really finding out it was trying to be like others works.

Er ... YA seems to go back to the '50s and '60s. And you can make an argument for it being older, albeit not as a formalized marketing classification. (Yes, I am basing that statement on the Wikipedia entry, but it seems to be reasonably well sourced.

There are some gems in the kids and YA sections, but as with other kinds of books, ya gotta kiss a lot of frogs to find them. ;)

Ala wrote: ""Death is a place where the sun shines a different colour every day and where people travel to the length of their dreams. Rejecting the violence and hate of the old gang at the Forgotten Works, th..."

I have to admit, I'm one of the ones who loved this book!

Marc wrote: "Deedee wrote: "I also greatly dislike Robert Heinlein's books -- Friday starts off with a female character who enjoys being gang-raped. Not sure what happens afterwards because I tossed the book th..."

I'm a sci-fi lover who strongly dislikes Heinlein's writing. Almost all of it is sexual inuendo to the max. Boring!

My last book that I had to stop reading and throw out: Wild Animus by Rich Shapero. Has to have been my worst ever!

But I loved Tigana...

Judy wrote: "I have to admit, I'm one of the ones who loved this book! "

Can you explain it? That description I posted was from it's page here at GR, and I've no idea at all what it means.

Judging from the appearance in this thread of so many otherwise highly acclaimed (and sometimes award-winning) authors and books, I wonder if the thread title would be more accurate as "Books I Couldn't Stand." Everybody has things they legitimately like and dislike, for perfectly good reasons, but that's not necessarily the same thing as labeling a book "really bad."

I'd say The Witching Hour by Anne Rice was among the worst. The last scene is putrid. Also I recently read some John Ringo sci fi novels that were horrifying to me, in the sense that something that bad actually got published.

I love Good Omens, pretty much any Heinlein, and I like Twilight too. Did not care for The Lovely Bones.

Plenty of others books I hate, but they are mostly "literary" fiction mistakes like Fall on Your Knees and The Secret Life of Bees.

Oh, another truly terrible publishing mistake in the genre is the "Silver" trilogy by Anne Kelleher. Really, really bad writing.

It really depends on how you define "really bad". Some may say it's a lack of originality, a stumbling prose, stilted dialog, one dimensional characters or any other number of things.

Some definitions we'd agree on, some we wouldn't.

Sure, there are probably tons of books that we'd all agree are horrible. Like maybe this one for instance(I haven't read it, to be fair). There are undoubtedly books that are just universally considered to be "really bad".

But this thread is about what you considered a "really bad" book. Regardless of what others think, even if they consist of the majority. Regardless of awards and or acclaim. Regardless of the veracity of your dislike or the earnestness of other peoples enjoyment of the same book.

It's about what books irked, annoyed, frustrated and pained you to read. Books that made you want to tear your hair out, set fire to it, or throw it some random distance in any direction.

It's just about books that you, personally, felt was "really bad".

So I think the title fits. ;)

But, honestly, I've been wrong before and wouldn't be surprised if this was another instance of it. So if everyone would rather I change the title, say so.

I was given a Paolini as a Christmas present and I put it down after a few pages, it was really not my cha at all.

I think the most often mentioned YA books that get up most noses gets up mine as well.

I actually really liked Gardens of the Moon. I might have to reread it to see if I was just overlooking things...

I hated Twilight because it COULD have been a great book but she turned into a bad schmaltzy emo teen love yuck. And really, when did the creepy stalker stuff become "oh so romantic *sigh*" instead of the reason for a restraining order? It scares me that a lot of people think that this kind of possessiveness is love.
Also, I wanted to smack the winy little wuss silly at the beginning of the second book. He dumped me, boohoo, my life is over, boohoo, so I drop in the forest and just lay there until someone finds me. *blergh* Way to foster a healthy independence.

Eragon was so bad, it was my toilet book for 4 months until I finished it. The blatant and clumsy copying and mashing of other books was nothing I could stomach. My husband loved it however...

A non SF/ Fantasy book I could never stomach was The Catcher in the Rye. I already hated reading that piece of garbage in school...

I still plan on giving Gardens of the Moon a try at some point, though probably not soon.

As for the whole Twilight thing, I have only ever read an excerpt. And there was someone sparkling in it. Never read any of the rest of it after that...

Ala wrote: "I still plan on giving Gardens of the Moon a try at some point, though probably not soon.

As for the whole Twilight thing, I have only ever read an excerpt. And there was someone sparkling in it. ..."

omg, how could I forget the sparkling thing? Like someone imagined that vampires get rolled in crushed Christmas ornaments :)

Ala wrote: "I still plan on giving Gardens of the Moon a try at some point, though probably not soon.

As for the whole Twilight thing, I have only ever read an excerpt. And there was someone sparkling in it. ..."

Definitely do. Even though I didn't like it, I could see why most others do. It just didn't work for me, for whatever reason. But despite my extreme dislike of it, I still wouldn't call in bad necessarily.. It was very well written.. Just bad for me :P

Machavelli wrote: "Eragon was probably the most predictable book i have read and the vocabulary was terrible. You can really tell it's written by a teenager. It's incredible that someone read that book ..."

I agree. Totally derivative. I also didn't like The Golden Compass. Much better written, but too childish for my tastes.

Bit I thought Titus Groan brilliant.

Personally, I thought Sunshine was an enjoyable book. Not without flaws, sure, but still fun. That was the first book I was actually surprised to see in this thread. :)