SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

OK, I know that this is used in probably 2/3 of all fantasy novels, but I find books that tell the story of the protagonist as a child or young teen simply tedious. I am reminded of this again reading Name of the Wind. I am plowing through this part because so many speak highly of the book, but if I could find a way to skip it and not lose the story I would.

I think there are two reasons why this turns me off. First, it is SOOOO predictable. Kid comes from humble surroundings, discovers he has some ability, is mentored in some way, suffers some great tragedy, heads off on adventure (all in no particular order) . . . ugh.

Second, children as protagonists are utterly uninteresting to me. Get back to me when you grow up. :0)

Now, telling the backstory through short and efficient flashbacks or storytelling, fine, but a narrative walk-through is, for me, like having to wait around for the real story to get started.

Maybe I am just getting old!

No, you're not alone. . . I really hesitated over picking The Name of the Wind up last year because I have zero interest in that standard plot line too. Pretty much all of my favorite fantasy novels have middle aged protagonists. ;)

But I found The Name of the Wind worth it despite that. . . so hopefully it picks up for you!

Hi Vance, and no, you arent alone..a lot of people have said the same thing. I actually think I would have liked it fine if it wasn't for everyone telling me how wonderful it is...lol
I agree that it's too predictable when told in the linear fashion that it is...if it came out more in pieces, it would have been much better. I would never downgrade the writing itself, it was beautiful, but the structure of how the plot came out annoyed the crap out of me, and I didn't really care about Kvothe, because he just seems like a young brat.

Yes, I am making an exception for this book. Normally, I would have given up by now! I also prefer my characters a bit more mature, or at least fully adult with some experience under their belt. I am so grateful that Leiber didn't introduce the Grey Mouser as a kitchen scullion, age 10!

Maggie, I missed your post! I am so glad you found the young Kvothe unappealing, because that is right where I am! I will stick it out, though!

You're preaching to the choir. I had the same problem. I'm not into YA novels, so having to go through a section of a book where it feels like a YA novel is tedious to me, especially in a fantasy, where a part of a book can be as long as an average length novel.

I don't mind the story of the protagonist as a child - it can be used to flesh out the character some so you have some idea of where he came from. For instance, there's a few chapters in Sanderson's 'Way of Kings' where one of the protagonists is depicted as a child. You get insight into why he turned out the way he did and the way his mind works as a result of those formative experiences.

I think such passages have to serve that function, to provide insight on the adult, to be effective; otherwise they don't add much to a story.

Huh. I don't have this pet peeve; but then, I like well-written YA novels. I figure that if the story of someone being a child is uninteresting, then later parts of the book are not likely to be any better.

My pet peeve is stupid names. (Don't want to derail with a big long list, but I can't get past the main character of In the Name of the Wind being named Kvothe. My brain always tries to parse that as "Quoth" which just seems incredibly precious and twee.)

Very true, Samantha, often there truly is a use for the background and it can be done without being tedious. But the whole "hero's journey" trope, which insists on telling it "from the beginning" just bores me to tears most of the time.

Aloha, you are right, those parts do sound too much like a YA novel, I had not thought of that!

I actually prefer books that start out with a young protagonist that we get to know as they grow up. But you're definitely not alone.. Everyone has their own preferences. There's more than one way to mash a potato! I have no idea where that came from, I think it must be lunch time.

hmmm, mashed potatoes . . .

Yes, there must be loads of folks who enjoy it since books that use it still sell like hotcakes! I am glad I am not the only humbug, though!

One great thing about Goodreads is the vast range of opinions!

Mashed potatoes and pancakes??? Talk about different tastes!

Mmmm, mashed potato pancakes. Yummy :)

why is it as 2 separate dishes it didn't sound good, but combined it does? yes it definitely is lunchtime :)

Mashed potato...pancakes?!

Heathens! The lot of you!

I don't care for YA fiction, but if the story is well-written, regardless of protagnoist's age, I will gladly peruse it. I thoroughly enjoyed The Name of the Wind and look forward to receiving the sequel next week.

The Latke Who Couldn't Stop Screaming: A Christmas Story

Latkes are delicious. Just sayin'.

Also, I've heard so many good things about Name of the Wind and read an amusing snippet of an excerpt from Wise Man's Fear that I want to try to read the former ... maybe I will just mentally replace every instance of "Kvothe" with something else. >.>

Oh my god, I am laughing so hard right now Nikki!

I like the youth/child protagonist, because then i can see the character grow up. Kvothe is pronounced "Quothe" according to Rothfuss's website. It is a special name but compared to Oot which he has named his son, it's not that bad.

You know, in putting some more thought into my "pet peeve", I think that part of it is that as I get older, I have less patience and just want the story to move. I want the actions and events that are the core of the story to be engaged immediately.

So often, the early part of a fantasy book is about the development of the character, his or her growth, education, discovery, etc, and all of this is foundational to the "real" events of the story. They are personal to the character, and sort of prologue to the "Events", and often involve an entirely different set of characters and settings that don't even come into play during those "Events". I prefer the story skip all of that and just get to the events! :0)

Also, I like my adult characters with a bit of mystery, an ambiguous past we may get glimpses of as we go along.

I feel the same way, Vance. I don't mind a story that includes the events from childhood, but it has to be fundamental to the overall adult theme. There are plenty of children's point of view that are told in a way that doesn't feel like a YA. I didn't finish The Name of the Wind precisely because the first half of the book feels like a YA, a mediocre Harry Potter. The Harry Potter series was more interesting as a YA than the first half of Wind. For YA, I'd rather read the Harry Potter series or His Dark Materials series, both better written, IMO.

You know, Aloha, that is interesting about Harry Potter. There is something about it being a book ABOUT kids, set in a kid's world, and not as preparation for something else, that makes it entirely different.

I am going to stick with the Name of the Wind since it is the beginning of a larger story and would hate to have read ONLY the part that rubs me the wrong way!

Kind of funny that you posted in both groups, get kind of late on here.

I like to find out about the backstory to a perosn, but the problems too many books espeically in fantay does not now a days, plus they also have to no family of any kind to speak of.

Machavelli wrote: "I like the youth/child protagonist, because then i can see the character grow up. Kvothe is pronounced "Quothe" according to Rothfuss's website. It is a special name but compared to Oot which he ha..."

I'm guessing you already know this, but just in case you don't... His son's name isn't really "Oot", that's just the nickname he uses in public forums to protect giving out his actual name.

Dawn, that is not nearly as interesting!!! :0)

Vance, I'm not as forgiving of a book, especially when I'm about half way through and I still find it mediocre. It makes me mad when I've made so much time investment and still could not get into it.

Kevin, I checked your profile and I think you're in every fantasy groups there are. They're infested with mice!

Kevin wrote: "Kind of funny that you posted in both groups, get kind of late on here."

Aloha, I know how you feel and have tossed many a book away when it did not grab me, or particularly annoyed me. But so many people keep telling me how good this book is that I am more patient here. But, still, there will come a point . . .!

Wait, maybe I could just jump to the "grown up" part and have somebody give me the executive summary! :0)

I'm a horror and dark fiction aficionado, so I like it when an author pushes the boundaries. If there is to be fear, I want the extreme fear that we would feel if we were to be faced with the situation. If there is to be sex, I'd like it to be lusty and graphic. Same for violence, complex situations, sadness, etc. For a YA, I expect it to be whimsical and totally magical, the way I appreciated it as a child. When a book like The Lovely Bones deals with such an adult matter but watered down for a YA audience, it irritates me.

Aloha, I am similar (although I don't lean toward horror), which is why I liked Abercrombie's First Law books (starting with The Blade Itself). It is a bit longer than I like, but very "realistic" and with no kids! :0)

It's Fantasy Aficionado's March read. I'll read it after I finish reading and reviewing a book for a friend, and a classic book on haunting for my Horror Aficionados group. Looks like it'd be a great March! So many books, so little time.

Aloha wrote: "It's Fantasy Aficionado's March read. I'll read it after I finish reading and reviewing a book for a friend, and a classic book on haunting for my Horror Aficionados group. Looks like it'd be a g..."

To correct you Aloha, its actually the group Beyond Reality, not Fantasy Aficionado.

What? You don't think we have our feet firmly planted on the ground? At least I'm not cooking you up along with my chubby Italian man.

Aloha wrote: "Kevin, I checked your profile and I think you're in every fantasy groups there are. They're infested with mice!

Kevin wrote: "Kind of funny that you posted in both groups, get kind of late on here.""

All, but one, that is a story for another time.

I'm all ears when time has lessened the trauma.

I have a strange urge to go feed periogies to gerbils.

That is one cute little mouse, though, sword and all.

Aloha wrote: "That is one cute little mouse, though, sword and all."

Don't miss with the mouse, if you do then see the result in Mossflower and Martin the Warrior.

Ender's Game and Dune are great examples of books that have kid protagonists, but the books do not feel like part YA.

I'm scared, very scared...*shaking*

Kevin wrote: "
Don't miss with Martin the Warrior, if you do then see the result in Mossflower and [book:Martin the Warrior|20..."

Aloha wrote: "I'm scared, very scared...*shaking*

Kevin wrote: "
Don't miss with Martin the Warrior, if you do then see the result in Mossflower and [book:Martin the Warrior|20...""

Just kidding, actually the mouse is actually quiet peaceful, only if provoked.

If you've read Joseph Campbell's "Hero With a Thousand Faces", he goes over the formula for hero stories and hero characters. In summary:

"A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man."

Star Wars is an example of a story that was taken (intentionally) straight from the formula, and after studying Joesph Campbell in English Class it's hard for me to read a book, especially a fantasy novel, and not fit it to his guide.

As to young kids being the protagonists, maybe it has gotten more prolific lately. I think authors like to write about characters that have the capacity to undergo development and change- easier to show with younger characters?

Or is it because it might be profitable to write fantasy books that feels like YA after the huge success of the Harry Potter series?

Ami wrote: "If you've read Joseph Campbell's "Hero With a Thousand Faces", he goes over the formula for hero stories and hero characters. In summary:

"A hero ventures forth from the world of common day i..."

I had to read the book for a class, hate it. Then I had to apply it on Assassin's Apprentice to write a essay, not fun at all. My teacher loved it, appiled to all of our coursework. P.S. R.A. Salvatore hates using the Hero's Jounery in his work, he even hates to talk about it at all, had it too much in College, I agree with him. His first book The Crystal Shard did not have it, the original main character was shifted after it was published, even if it was not the book I think turns 180 degrees on the Hero's Journey.

I think Ender's Game is different because the protagonist was a child from beginning to end, rather than the childhood "section" being the background, development and build-up to the "big events". While I do not prefer children as protagonists at all, what really annoys me is the wallowing in their developmental stage and "growth" periods, which primarily describe how they went from stage 1 to being able to "handle" the real events. And, even in Dune, this early part was my least favorite.

Ami wrote: "If you've read Joseph Campbell's "Hero With a Thousand Faces", he goes over the formula for hero stories and hero characters. In summary:

"A hero ventures forth from the world of common day i..."

I would recommand you read the Crystal Shard if you want to read fantasy story without the Hero's Jounry even the remote possibility of being in the book, because Drizzt was not suppose to be the main character.

One theme I've generally liked is where kids get put in roles that require more responsibility of them than most adults' or transform into half-adults in some way. I'm talking about both books that do that in a dark, grim kind of way like Ender's Game or Lord of the Flies, and the happier sort like the Chronicles of Narnia. Harry Potter is an example of what I'm talking about too. Since I'm still a "young adult" myself that could be part of why I like them so much, but I think it's also just a really effective example of "oft help shall come from the hands of the weak when the wise falter."

Vance wrote: "I think Ender's Game is different because the protagonist was a child from beginning to end, rather than the childhood "section" being the background, development and build-up to the "big events". ..."

In Ender's Game, those children stop being children when they left earth becoming really soldiers, these having to mature really fast. Most other books as child, it is the time when the character develops and matures.

There's a long list in different media at tvtropes. Saying that readers must like these stories because there are so many of them overlooks the detail that many of those readers probably are not of an age to have read upteen other stories with the same arc already.

Richard, I agree and it is hard to tell where "tried and true formula" becomes "lazy borrowing of something that worked pretty well before". I suppose in fantasy you can say it is all variations on a few themes, going back to Campbell's examples of early storytelling, but this is one theme that has come to bother me!

And there are plenty who avoid this scullion-to-hero trope nicely, Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories, Moorcock's Elric for the most part, and more recently Guy Gavriel Kay's books, the Black Company books and Abercrombie.

Kevin, that is true about Ender's Game, they matured quickly! But I think it fits in with the Harry Potter and related "kid's taking on adult roles" mentioned above by Silvio. This does not bother me nearly as much for some reason.