Rothfussians discussion

So, we are just a few days away from the release of The Wise Man's Fear. Does anybody have any predictions or theories they want to share? Any questions from book 1 you are hoping or expecting will be answered? Please share.

More about Denna's ring.
How Ambrose gets Kvothe kicked out of University (again)
Who gives Kvothe the name "Dulator"...

And everything else! I want it all!

I think that Lorren knows more about the Chandrain and the Amyr than he let on and that's why he tried to stop Kvothe from looking up information about them. I even have a wild theory that he might be an Amyr. It's a long shot but it's still fun to think about.

I think both Lorren and Elodin are members of the Amyr.

I think we have already met Denna's patron, Mister Ash, and I think the Kingkiller bit involves the King of Vint.

WADO wrote: "I think we have already met Denna's patron, Mister Ash, and I think the Kingkiller bit involves the King of Vint."

Really, who do you think "Master Ash" is?

Cinder. I'll elaborate on why next week.

Interesting! I look forward to hearing your reasons.

I would think that somehow Ambrose becomes King, does something horrible to Denna, then gets done-in by an enraged Kvothe.

Dallas wrote: "I would think that somehow Ambrose becomes King, does something horrible to Denna, then gets done-in by an enraged Kvothe."

I agree, I've been thinking for a long time that Ambrose would likely end up being the king that earns Kvothe the nickname "Kingkiller."

i've got one word. Valaritas.

I agree that ash=Cinder. Also, old cob's taborlin the great story at the beginning says that they had taken his tools "key, coin, and candle were all gone"... so far Auri has given Kvothe a key, and a coin. The key she says is for a door in the moon. The coin is like none Kvothe has ever seen before. I think she has delivered to him 2 of Taborlin's tools

Rosscarter5 wrote: "I agree that ash=Cinder. Also, old cob's taborlin the great story at the beginning says that they had taken his tools "key, coin, and candle were all gone"... so far Auri has given Kvothe a key, an..."

I like it!

ooo. i didn't notice that. interesting. i don't think ask is cinder, though.

Also, from my previous post. I believe that the candle from the story is the ever-burning candle that kilvin is trying to create as that would certainly be of great use to a sympathist.

that's a lamp though.

True. Any speculations on what's behind the four plate door?

Rosscarter5 wrote: "True. Any speculations on what's behind the four plate door?"

No idea but I hope someone else does.

Rosscarter5 wrote: "I agree that ash=Cinder. Also, old cob's taborlin the great story at the beginning says that they had taken his tools "key, coin, and candle were all gone"... so far Auri has given Kvothe a key, an..."

OK, so when Auri brings Kvothe down into the Underthing he uses his sympathy lamp and she "had a light of her own, something she held in her cupped hands that gave of a soft, blue-green glow." Kvothe continues, "I was curious about what she held but didn't want to press her for too many secrets at once." (pg. 621)

Taborlin's candle?

The way Old Cob warps stories it may have been an ever burning lamp that Taborlin used.

I think Loren might be one of the Amyr. I need to re-read the descriptions but I think one of them fit...

did anyone see the picture of the Amyr on Pat's blog? I don't think Loren would be one of those.
@Crazy Uncle Ryan I LIKE IT.

Also, I would love to hear comments on the role of silence. It seems to be the polar opposite of naming (obvious) and also it has a sort of enchantment/magic breaking effect.

i just thought he was being creative.

Rosscarter5 wrote: "Also, I would love to hear comments on the role of silence. It seems to be the polar opposite of naming (obvious) and also it has a sort of enchantment/magic breaking effect."

That's a good point. I will ponder . . . in silence.

Crazy Uncle Ryan wrote: "Interesting! I look forward to hearing your reasons."

Ok, here goes, and while this will be and long and nearly spoiler-free:

WHY MASTER ASH IS CINDER

Master Ash = too blatantly obvious to be Cinder, which is exactly why it has to be. It is classic Red Red Herring (see the film Clue with Tim Curry), and Pat laughs his deep, maniacal laugh ever time he considers how cunning this plan is :)

But really, Cinder and the Chandrian have made several appearances at times when Denna has been close by.

1st - in Tarbeam. A hooded figure appears just after Kvothe hears the tale of Lanre from Skarpi, and Kvothe sees only shadows around his face and remembers the name, Haliax, which prods him out of Tarbeam toward the University, wherein he meets Denna for the first time on the ride toward Imre a couple days later.

Later, after Kvothe and Denna have reunited, we hear from (I think) Deoch that Denna's patron is white-haired, same as Cinder's.

Then of course there is the massacre in Trebon by the Chandrian. More proximity than you could shake a stick of denner wood at.

There is a good amount of time between sightings then, but eventually Kvothe again sees Cinder out in the woods, and relative to their distance from Imre, not far at all from Denna. (Since its been a couple days and you read this thread at your risk of spoilerage) Cinder, we learn, is the leader of the Bandits the Maer sends Kvothe to deal with. It takes Kvothe and his crew some weeks to find the bandits, which puts quite some time between Kvothe and Denna after their argument over Denna's song, but Cinder and Denna being a thousand miles from Trebon within a few weeks of one another is quite a bit more than coincidence to me.

The continued proximity of Denna to Cinder's appearances COULD only be circumstantial, but the real bit for me is (cue Pat's evil laugh) - Kvothe's naming of the patron Master Ash (I know, I confuse myself too). The key I think here is Auri. Auri is not her name, we do not know her name. Auri is the name Kvothe had given her, and there is strong evidence in WMF that this factor is intensely important and of interest. I purport that Kvothe's abilities as a namer extend beyond wielding awesome powers on par with Taborlin, that naming itself manifests in more subtle ways, which are simply harder to see. I think Kvothe's connection between the incidence of the ash leaf and the discussion of Denna's patron was a manifestation of his "naming". Kind of a tenuous theory, but there you have it.

Wow. Just finished WMF. Amazing (understatement). However, by the end all I could think was "Kvothe the Powerless" won't go into detail on the book but I was very surprised about the state of things in the present day.

Crazy Uncle Ryan wrote: "I think that Lorren knows more about the Chandrain and the Amyr than he let on and that's why he tried to stop Kvothe from looking up information about them. I even have a wild theory that he migh..."

I was thinking about the scriv that Kvothe met in the archives the day he went to see Lorren (NoTW, ch 61). That guy seems like he could be one of the Amyr, too. Being in book acquisisiton would be a good reason for him to travel all over the Commonwealth and further afield, and also a good reason for him to keep in touch with Lorren (if Lorren is Amyr, too), thereby giving him a good cover story, backed up by the University itself.

I think Brendon is Master Ashe. With his love of "games", the mention of Denna's Patron thinking it was a game to beat her, her mentioning to Kvothe he had likely already met him, and the lack of detail provided about his character. Seems like a prime candidate.

not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but i don't think kvothe actually kills the king. i don't remember the exact part of NOTW, but i got the impression that he was blamed for the kings death, but not actually responsible.

Crazy Uncle Ryan wrote: "I think that Lorren knows more about the Chandrain and the Amyr than he let on and that's why he tried to stop Kvothe from looking up information about them. I even have a wild theory that he migh..."

and he wiped out the info about the amyr

I also wanted to comment on the ending of the book. "There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step."

The one single perfect step portion of the qoute makes me believe he has always been doing the Ketan. Even as the innkeeper. If this is right, then he lost on purpose to the 2 guards. Also through multiple scene at the inn you see mentions of Kvothes physique, which would hint that maybe he was still active in it.

Unless the end of book 2 is signifying the effect Bast so dearly wishes but cannot see himself. And Kvothe begins practicing the Ketan again...

Any thoughts?

Jaytonisme wrote: "I also wanted to comment on the ending of the book. "There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step."


To my mind that is the most significant line in WMF.

There are some theories floating around that Kvothe hurt his hands. That would explain the lack of music- what do we think?

I think no music no magic. but also no denna no music. i think something tragic will happen to her

To back this up:

NOTW pg 49. "Some people says there was a woman-"
"What do they know?"Kote's voice cut like straw through a bone. "What do they know about what happened?"

Chronicler found himself thinking of a story he had heard. One of the many. The story of how Kvothe had gone looking for his heart's desire.

NOTW pg 416 Then I heard a voice, a voice like burning silver,like a kiss against my ears. Looking up, my heart lifted and I knew it was my Aloine. Looking up, I saw her and all I could think was beautiful. Beautiful.

NOTW pg 417 "And then what, Reshi? Did you talk to her?"
"Of course I talked to her. There would be no story if I hadn't"

WMF pg 643 I felt better, not good by any means, but better. Less empty. My music always helped. As long as I had my music, no burden was ever to heavy to bear.

So I think Denna becomes Kvothe's inspiration
and
it's possible Kote is hiding frome Kvothe because he's afraid of something similar to the story of Lanre becoming Hailax after the loss of Lyra(Denna) from himself.

Hi! I'm new to the forum, and i have to say...interesting theories!

I just wanted to point out there is undenyable evidence for Meluan being Kvothe's aunt in the song that Kvothe tells Sim and Will his father wrote about his mother:

Dark Laurian, Arliden's wife,
Has a face like a blade of a knife
Has a voice like a prickledown burr
But can tally a sum like a moneylender.
My sweet Tally cannot cook.
But she keeps a tidy ledger-book
For all her faults I do confess
It's worth my life
To make my wife
Not tally a lot less...

The song implies that he calls his wife Tally because she's good with numbers, but the much more likely reason is because Tally is short for Netalia...(it is mentioned that the stolen away lackless sister's name is netalia)

Furthermore, the last three lines, when spoken aloud sound like "It's worth my life to make my wife Netalia Lockless". It seems likely that the real reason Kvothe's mother made his father sleep under the wagon after he made that song is not because it had a bad meter as Kvothe claims but because it gave away her identity as Netalia Lockless.

Holy crap, that's an interesting bit that Meluan could be Kvothe's aunt. It matches up really frickin' well. it's even mentioned in the first book that Laurian came from a noble background.

Jaytonisme wrote: "I also wanted to comment on the ending of the book. "There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step."

T..."

I think it's true that he lost on purpose. He made a remark to Chronicler that he nearly forgot who he was in the fight - he forgot he was supposed to be a simple innkeeper, not a skilled fighter.

Right, in addition to the bit that meluan's sister ran away with the ruh, and laurian being irritated with kvothe about the lackless riddle in book 1. PLUS, with the emphasis on the word "ravel" in book two, the line about "lackless likes her riddle raveling" is even more telling!

I'm so glad you posted that, thank you. Seeing it together it seems so obvious, but I hadn't picked up on it at all! Took a good eye to pick that part out. =]

That's what I think. I think he lost on purpose, but at the end he does his Ketan.

I'm not so sure Kvothe's mom is the Lackless sister. There's a intresting theory that Denna is.

So... I have a theory about why Kvothe doesn't seem to have any powers anymore. I may be crazy. It could just all be wrapped up in his alar and--since he seems to have lost faith in himself--it could explain why he can't use sympathy. But that wouldn't explain why he'd lost his fighting ability. I don't think he let those guards beat him up; he was trying, but his hands wouldn't obey him.
This got me to thinking: Something must have fundamentally changed in him for him to get like this in just a handful of years.
Then I remembered Elodin's reaction when Kvothe asked him about people changing their names. Elodin actually got scared. SCARED. He demands "What have you done?" (TWMF 978) indicating that it is possible to change one's Name (proper Name, not just calling name).
And I think that's what Kvothe must have done. For whatever reason, he must have needed to change his Name and now he's losing himself to this milder persona. It's killing him. And that's why the third silence, the cut-flower sound of a man waiting to die, belongs to him.

Seeing as how despite having vast amounts of work to do I cannot stop rereading sections of the books pretty much every day, Kvothe has been buying an awful lot of very strange items.

He orders a mounting board made from a very rare type of wood from Carter. He orders brass barrels from Graham, which Graham has never made before.

The more I think about it, I think Kvothe is laying a trap for someone, and Kote is the bait.

WADO wrote: "Seeing as how despite having vast amounts of work to do I cannot stop rereading sections of the books pretty much every day, Kvothe has been buying an awful lot of very strange items.

He orders a ..."
Heh, I can't keep from checking here to see if anyone has had a new revelation. Such as this!

What was this mounting board used for (or is it just chilling somewhere)? I thought he mounted the sword, only cause that's the only item I can remember as mounted.

Perhaps this trap idea is so interesting because we want it to be true. I think the problem with this, is that we have a reliable narrator talking about his present day actions. His stressing with the chest seems to indicate that there is something truly wrong in the present, that he actually doesn't have the control he should have. Unless he was doing it for someone's benefit, that he's being observed, and we haven't been clued in. I also need to go back and reread the line about a figure going into the basement. I think initial impressions are that it was Bast, but later I felt like it wasn't. Confirm/deny?

Ugh, my ex has my copy of NotW, and is now in England. Ordered another, arrives today (with luck.) Then time to reread!

I assumed the brass barrels were for Bast's benefit because the iron (that would normally be used) makes him uncomfortable.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but on re reading WMF i noticed Denna seemed especially interested in magic that was written down. On page 97 when Kvothe talks about Sygaldry she gets quite excited; "so its a magic where you write things down?' she asked, leaning forward in her chair". this, on it's own, might just be mundane but later on (152) she goes into more detail talking about writing that could make you "think a certain thing, or act a certain way"

Don't know what other people thought about this. Maybe her potential patron trapped her using magical writing of some sort or something happened in her childhood similar to Kvothe's, dont know how it could tie in with the story so far but it's quite interesting...

So, I just finished the book. What did I miss?

I like the theory about Kvothe's sleeping mind naming Denna's patron Ash for Cinder. At the same time I think that Bredon is Master Ash and also Stercus the thrall of iron. Bredon is constantly carrying a cane and Denna's patron beats her with a cane... I can't wait for everything to tie in and reveal itself.

I'm also concerned about the present day Kvothe. I like the theory of his name being locked in the box like the moons. It also makes sense. I don't wanna wait for the next book to come out...