The Sword and Laser discussion

I wonder if what bothers Lepton about the alleged violence and misogyny in Shadow & Claw isn't so much their presence but that there aren't any ramifications for the characters partaking in them.

Speaking of partaking. I don't mind a little violence in my fantasy. Amorality, go for it. Misogyny? Well, what do you really expect from a narrative that provides us with just as many updates on Severian's sword as on the man himself? It rolls off my back.

So how do we feel about the consumption of human flesh? I have to admit that I protested out loud when I got to that section. And you know, maybe I would have minded less if there seemed to be consequences. If Vodalus had seemed more evil. If Severian had tried harder not to eat his dead girlfriend. Sure, he "suffers" by always having Thecla in his head, but is it torment or a bit of a way to never be apart from his lover? Doesn't it bother him that he isn't the only person carrying Thecla with him forever?

I moved to skimming mode after that moment. And I probably won't read the other books. But is this something that has negative ramifications later on, or are we as readers supposed to just accept this as a part of the culture? I found myself wanting to write Vodalus and his people off as nonhuman, as if that would justify it or explain it. I do find myself viewing them differently. How about you?

I won't spoil, but yes there are ramifications for what is done.

Jenny wrote: "Speaking of partaking. I don't mind a little violence in my fantasy. Amorality, go for it. Misogyny? Well, what do you really expect from a narrative that provides us with just as many updates on Severian's sword as on the man himself? It rolls off my back..."

I have a bigger problem with fantasy books set in worlds that are clearly Medieval Europe with the serial numbers filed off, except that everyone treats women as equals. How is that any different than setting a fantasy in a world based upon the Antebellum South but ignoring slavery? Or all those steampunk novels that ignore the massive regime of global exploitation necessary for the setting to work. I prefer fantasy authors to be honest about the sort of societies they're portraying than to create an idealized world.

So how do we feel about the consumption of human flesh?

I find it completely disgusting, but I don't consider that a basis for morality. As long as the cannibals aren't killing the people they eat, I don't see an ethical problem.

I found myself wanting to write Vodalus and his people off as nonhuman, as if that would justify it or explain it.

There have been cultures that engage in such practices for exactly the same reasons as Vodalus and his people.

And of course, ritualistic cannibalism is a major part of Catholic ceremony -- you have to eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood in order to ... well, I never understood that part.

The dead-eaters/cannibals are not looked on kindly in Severian's society. I think it means death if someone finds out? In the very least it means the death of their social life in normal and polite circles.

I can't go back and check as i returned the book to the library the other day.

I found it very disturbing, and I don't think you're supposed to "just accept it." Again, my theory is that there's many things Severian accepts that we are not meant to.

As Sean mentions, it's not exactly "non-human" as some of the past cultures that practiced it did it for the same reason these corpse-eaters do -- to take on the knowledge and power of the consumed person. And, as Sean also mentions, for some Christian denominations the ritual of communion is literally consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus.

So it could be seen as another way Urth culture has regressed -- however, it's notable that it seems to be illegal in Severian society's, or at least makes one a pariah, as Colin suggests. Certainly it's not a standard part of the culture, or Vodalus' followers wouldn't have to resort to illegal grave-robbing to achieve it. It's a further reason Voldalus' followers are underground, and part of why I think Hildergrin was unwilling to expose his identity to Severian when Severian called him out at the Botanical Gardens.

Severian does consider himself no longer completely loyal to Vodalus after finding out that what the ritual entailed, if you remember. He agrees to go on House Absolute but internally decides he will not deliver the message (though he does end up doing it anyway, in a daze when he meets his contact).

As for why he didn't refuse entirely - well, the wisest would have been to try to escape before the ritual, though it would have been dangerous - he was basically Vodalus' prisoner, even though he was treated kindly (as long as he was going along with Vodalus' wishes). During the ritual, he didn't know it was Thecla until it is well underway and he is heavily drugged on the alzabo, and it is the temptation of regaining some part of her consciousness that finally tips him into full consent.

All to say that this was the only truly cringe-worthy moment in the entire book for me. :)

It's definitely a memorable scene, and the ramifications of the experience combined with Severian's "perfect" memory are fascinating.

It makes me wonder if the disparity we were feeling between what we thought happened between Severian and Thecla and what he would remember is because he's remembering her memories, which might be wishful thinking.... Ack, it gets more complicated the more I think of it.

It does make me wonder though, at HOW the memory transfer occurred. Granted I haven't actually sampled Long Pig, nor do i know anyone who has, but that part of it puzzled me.

I forget who said it to Sev, about how the "wine" or whatever it was, allowed them to eat the flesh and get the 'benefits'? Was that the wording of it? When i read it, i recall being left with the impression that it only allowed them to eat Her without puking it back up?

If that was the case, then that would mean humans had evolved or created some kind of gland or whathaveyou, that extracts a genetic memory from human flesh...which is kind of a strange thing to evolve. HOWEVER, as a fabricated thingie, it could be useful (creepy/ICKKKK factor aside) to attempt to 'learn' from people long dead...science and whatnot. Though i am glad to see the whole Bag-sh*t-crazy result is still there to put down the big Foot of "this is what you get for snacking on grandma."

But then if it was all in the drink, i guess that just makes it super creepy and gross, and not some overarching cannibal conspiracy perpetrated in the millennia long past.

Jenny wrote: "It makes me wonder if the disparity we were feeling between what we thought happened between Severian and Thecla and what he would remember is because he's remembering her memories, which might be ..."

Yes! That's a whole angle I'm considering this time that I didn't at all on my first read. It gets pretty tangled, because along with those memories (wishes?) of them being much, much closer than he initially suggested, there's also when he describes his hands, apparently under Thecla's control, trying to pluck out his eyes (echoing the earlier passage mentioned in the Unreliable Narrator thread.)

Back in the '70s and '80s, memory RNA was a popular theory as to how long-term memories were stored. The theory has since been discredited, but there was a famous experiment with flatworms who were taught to navigate a maze. These flatworms were then ground up and fed to other flatworms who hadn't yet been introduced to the maze, and, on average, these flatworms were able to navigate the maze faster than the control group of flatworms. The theory being that the memories were transferred from the original group of flatworms to the second group. This was reproducible. The current explanation for that result, however, is that no such memory transfer took place. The flatworms simply achieved better due to elevated hormones.

Colin wrote: "It does make me wonder though, at HOW the memory transfer occurred. Granted I haven't actually sampled Long Pig, nor do i know anyone who has, but that part of it puzzled me.

I forget who said it to Sev, about how the "wine" or whatever it was, allowed them to eat the flesh and get the 'benefits'? Was that the wording of it? When i read it, i recall being left with the impression that it only allowed them to eat Her without puking it back up? "

Ultan mentions how it works when Severian first asks him about it early in Shadow -- as well as eating the flesh you must also take "a certain pharmacon" -- this is the alzabo extract that's in the wine. The alzabo is a creature that takes on the personality of that it devours. So it has an in-world explanation, as well as the already-discussed echoes of ancient reasons/rituals surrounding cannibalism.

Jenny wrote: "It makes me wonder if the disparity we were feeling between what we thought happened between Severian and Thecla and what he would remember is because he's remembering her memories, which might be wishful thinking.... Ack, it gets more complicated the more I think of it."

I think that having Thecla's memories and personality definitely color his own memories, so she's undoubtedly described in a more favorite light in Severian's memoir that an impartial observer might report.

Ed wrote: "I think that having Thecla's memories and personality definitely color his own memories, so she's undoubtedly described in a more favorite light in Severian's memoir that an impartial observer might report..."

Yes, but I also like this: while Severian early on told us he wonders if some of his memories are created by his mind instead of recalled from experience, after we learn of this ritual, we now have to wonder not only if any memory involving both him and Thecla (the various ones of them sleeping together for instance) is real, but also, if it's not real, which one of the two consciousnesses within him might have wished it into being...

Truly Wolfeian.

Jlawrence wrote: "Yes, but I also like this: while Severian early on told us he wonders if some of his memories are created by his mind instead of recalled from experience, after we learn of this ritual, we now have to wonder not only if any memory involving both him and Thecla (the various ones of them sleeping together for instance) is real, but also, if it's not real, which one of the two consciousnesses within him might have wished it into being..."

OK, I see what you're saying.... Interesting. I hadn't considered that before.

Yeah, maybe it's reading too much into the two-consciousnesses aspect, but it seems like a possibility...

Jlawrence wrote: "Colin wrote: "It does make me wonder though, at HOW the memory transfer occurred. Granted I haven't actually sampled Long Pig, nor do i know anyone who has, but that part of it puzzled me.

I forge..."

That's right, i forgot about the Ghouls. Thanks!

A bit off topic - if Severian has perfect recall, can he recall the memories he has in those memories? And so on? haha

Adrienne wrote: "I guess I think Severian would be more likely to manufacture a memory of it than Thecla would."

Ah, yes, that's a good point, especially given the sleep-with-everyone impulses he displays throughout (that was something I had forgotten before this re-read!).

Adrienne wrote: "Unrelatedly, I keep trying to put these books on back on my bookshelf, and then I pull them out to look something up. Argh, I've been sucked in!"

Mwhahaha! Welcome to Wolfeland. ;)

Nothing wrong with eating people. I recommend more of it. Please hunt your neighbors for sport. I hear the flesh of the child tastes much like veal.

BTW, I did get through the entire audiobook of Shadow and Claw, if for no other reason that to be able to confirm how messed up and inappropriate the book is.

This guy! *giggles*

Lepton tastes bitter and sarcastic

Lepton wrote: "Nothing wrong with eating people. I recommend more of it. Please hunt your neighbors for sport. I hear the flesh of the child tastes much like veal.

Which of course isn't the situation presented in the book.

Out of curiosity, what moral issue do you have with consuming humans who are already dead? Is it completely wrong, even in situations where the alternative is starvation? Do you believe that your culture is superior to the real-world societies that allow for the practice? Or do you merely find it disgusting, and if so do you believe your revulsion is more justified than, say, being disgusted by escargot, or vegans who freak out about eating any animals flesh?

(Why yes, the Devil does have me on retainer.)

Adrienne wrote: "Jared wrote: "Lepton tastes bitter and sarcastic"

Like arugula?"
More like dandelion.

I'm not sure that I can be clearer on the issue. I fully support the consumption of human flesh, alive or dead, by another human or any other animal for that matter, especially the dreaded Candiru.

A Modest Proposal

Nice try, by the way Lepton. But you can't beat Swift.

I was under the impression that it was a direct biblical reference to the Lord's Supper (or whatever you call it)

Adrienne wrote: "Lepton wrote: "More like dandelion."

Hmm, that's probably less marketable than arugula. "

But not impossible to market: