SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Did anyone else catch this article in USA Today? I saw it tweeted this morning via Publishers Weekly:

Librarians launch boycott in battle over e-books - USATODAY.com http://usat.ly/fR3xeM

I read this immediately prior to commuting to work so had an entire hour to stew over it (and get nauseous) on the ride to work. My gut reaction found here at my blog:

http://mossjon314159.wordpress.com/20...

I read it on your FB feed. Thanks for posting it. I can understand both sides of this - I think. Physical books wear out, but ebooks don't. It's a DRM extension, a logical one. I oppose it the same as I do any DRM.

Where did they come up with 26 uses? That seems like a weird number. Do they think a hardback is replaced after being loaned 26 times? 1.5 years worth of loans? I KNOW I've read a lot of books that have been in service longer than that.

How do they handle downloadable audio books? Do they also expire after they're checked out X number of times?

I think we should all yell at HarperCollins about this. As I said, it is the next logical step in DRM to build in wear & tear. The publishers will never fix their business model if they can pull crap like this.

Jim wrote: "I think we should all yell at HarperCollins about this. As I said, it is the next logical step in DRM to build in wear & tear. The publishers will never fix their business model if they can pull crap like this. "

Oh, I plan to denounce HarperCollins for this latest evolution in the publishing model. I'm just trying to cool off enough to sound coherent.

I have to wonder if the next step is restricting how many times the individual purchasing an e-book can read it. (There are books I own that I've read more than 26 times. Yes, they were/are that good.)

Some ebooks have this built in, in a way - the publisher sells you a license to transfer the book to, say, three devices, but after that, you have to pay again. (I've only heard about this for expensive professional reference works, but it's out there.)

I think it's nonsense.

I get the whole "well ebooks don't disintegrate" but what happens if a real book disintegrates? In a good percentage of cases the library does NOT replace the book. If they do replace it, if it's a book like Oliver Twist there is no guarantee that the library would buy it from the same publisher since there are so many editions available.

I'd have no problem if a publisher said "hey we won't make any ebook releases less then a year old available for libraries". That's their right if they want to make sure their bestsellers rake in the sales. But to arbitrarily build in an expiration to force libraries to rebuy is repugnant. The libraries can't even plan the repurchases in their budget with that stupid "26 times" rule, a 2 or 5 year lease would at least enable budget planning.

Snail in Danger (Nikki) wrote: "I have to wonder if the next step is restricting how many times the individual purchasing an e-book can read it. (There are books I own that I've read more than 26 times. Yes, they were/are that ..."

Another question you raise is what constitutes 'reading' a book. I wanted to look up a character name the other day & opened the book, leafed through a few pages & found it. To me, that's not reading a book. To a computer, it probably is.

The time the book is open wouldn't work, either. The book above sat on my desk until I put it away the next day. It was a short book, I could have read it in a couple of hours. I leave windows & devices on longer than that when I get distracted.

I have paperbacks that are 50 years or more. (I just read some of them last year - the early Matt Helm books.) I have others I've had to replace after 1 or 2 readings (Jordan's WOT tomes tend to fall apart quickly.) I have hardbacks that are twice as old.

does anyone have contact info for marketing/management/the prez of HC? this is absolutely worth an angry letter. budgets of public libraries and other "artsy, non-essential" public works have been stretched to the breaking point for years now. ebooks are a great way to utilize some of those tight resources since the library only has to pay for servers to distribute them, and none of the other standard costs of keeping a bricks & mortar building open. but building in arbitrary "expiration" costs makes ebooks end up costing more than regular books (we've all seen books in circulation at the library for many years!) - when the book expires, i doubt very much that the budget is thick enough to pay for another copy all over again.

HarperCollins Publishers Inc. a subsidiary of News Corporation
10 E 53rd St
New York, NY, 10022-5244
www.harpercollins.com

1.212.207.7000

Here's something even more nefarious-publishers want geographic data on library card holders, so they can verify license agreements re geography are being honored. Can you beleive it? That is one reason librarians are so angry. Overdrive, a major vendor of HarperCollins to libraries has put the HC ebooks in a separate database, so if libraries want to participate in the current boycott, they can do so.

Leigh wrote: "Here's something even more nefarious-publishers want geographic data on library card holders, so they can verify license agreements re geography are being honored. Can you beleive it? That is one reason librarians are so angry."

They just keep chipping away at my privacy. Now I'm even angrier.

How detailed is the info that publishers want? If it's only, say, postal code, without a name or anything more specific (like street address or phone number) attached, that wouldn't bother me. (I understand that librarians may be forbidden to reveal even that much, in some cases - just saying it wouldn't upset me as an end user.)

Even postal codes are not reasonable. Postal codes reveal local incomes, user demographics and who uses the libraries most often. And if a wealthy district downloads a specific kind of book, publishers will cater to that demographic and ignore everyone else. The implications are alarming.

I stumbled across this article & the very last reason made so much sense:

The price of a book — like the price of every created thing — rests upon what the market will bear. As for costs, printing, paper and binding are often the least of it. In a business that relies on the intelligent and highly educated, people are the most expensive input. This explains why big publishers are in a flat-out panic over e-books. If a $9.95 e-book displaces a $29.95 hardcover because that’s what the market will bear, the revenue differential isn’t commensurate with the savings on printing, paper and binding. One solution to this dilemma would be to pay those intelligent, highly educated people smaller salaries and relocate them to Bangalore. A more palatable solution might be to find a really rich guy who’s bored with his sports team.

The full article is here:
http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/je...

Leigh wrote: "And if a wealthy district downloads a specific kind of book, publishers will cater to that demographic and ignore everyone else."

I'm having trouble believing this. Mostly because I don't think there are enough wealthy people to make this a lucrative strategy.

Jim,

I don't believe the publishers. Here's why. The $29.95 hardcover didn't cost $29.95 to produce. Let's say it cost $10 to produce. That's for paying the author, paying his agent, paying the editor, the marketing department, production, shipping, etc. They sell it to the bookstore for $15. They got $5. They didn't get $19.95. The bookstore might sell it for $29.95 or they might sell it for 20% off, or it might languish and get sold for $15.

Now let's switch to ebooks. You don't need your distribution network, you don't need production facilities, you don't need warehouses. So now you're down to office space and a server farm. You sill still need your editors, admin staff, marketing department, legal, etc. But now your new authors and new titles are less of a risk. You aren't having to guess how many copies of the title you will be able to sell before ordering a print run. You don't need to worry about taking on a new author and having them flop and being stuck with 50,000 copies of "How to Build a Treehouse for your Dog" to pulp. Your back catalog can be available forever. So after the upfront cost of editing, formatting, and some marketing, it can just sit there are the server waiting to be bought.

Then when you do sell, you can sell it directly to your market from your own website, or through a third party (Amazon, B&N, Sony). So they can take a cut, or not. Plus with ebooks, there is no second-hand market where the publisher and author never see a dime.

Then there is the final reality: the $9.99 price is only for bestsellers currently in hardback. The fiction books frequently sell at near the same price as their paperback counterparts. It's not unusual to pay more then $9.99 for a non-fiction work or a book that's in hardback but not on the bestsellers list.

The OMG outsourcing! is just silly. Publishing already lends itself to remote work: the authors live where they want, so do many editors. You will still want a headquarters and a good deal of your team there. While the headquarters might move away from expensive portions of the US, it's unlikely to move outside the US (since you would need US lawyers, US payroll, US agents, etc).

@Lara: But how do libraries fit into this publishing model? With no 'print runs' and the publishers holding the keys to the kingdom of licensing, they can pull a book off a library shelf (or your shelf) whenever they feel like it.

I'm almost to the point where libraries needs a 'special exemption' from these licenses; otherwise, knowledge, once again, will be controlled by the wealthy for the wealthy.

Libraries would need to figure out some ground rules and stick to them. In the past, a library would only buy a copy or two, and the distribution was limited to library membership and geographic area.

So the library would probably impose similar limits on itself: if Person A borrows "How to Build a Treehouse for your Dog" Person B and C can't until Person A deletes it. Person A will have to be a library member (and libraries may start refusing to loan ebooks to people who don't pay taxes locally/fund that library).

They can't pull "whenever they feel like it". It resides on my Kindles hard drive. The only time they have access to my hard drive is when I connect to their servers. I can a. manually transfer to my own hard drive for backup or b. never turn on the wireless access and they can't take it. Plus if they took it and customers paid for it (and they didn't refund the money/have a good legal reason like "it was a pirate copy") they would find themselves sued. That's theft.

Lara Amber wrote: "That's theft. "

Or at least fraud, since we don't 'own' an ebook (we lease it).

Well, it's a sticky issue. But I still think ebooks are the way to go. They are cheaper for everybody, and publishers need to stop being so greedy about licensing.

Lara Amber wrote: "Jim, I don't believe the publishers. Here's why. The $29.95 hardcover didn't cost $29.95 to produce. Let's say it cost $10 to produce. That's for paying the author, paying his agent, paying th..."

LOL! I've made the exact same arguments. I think you misunderstood me & it was my fault. I KNEW my opinions, you didn't. I was on the phone with a vendor at work with long hold times, so I started surfing this today when I ran across the piece I posted. It was a "Eureka!" moment for me. My apologies.

What I should have said was now I see one of the big fears of publishers & why they're pushing so hard for high ebook prices. It doesn't mean I agree with them. Just that I understand them better.

You're right about the costs involved, IMO. I've done some more reading & found that industry has changed a lot in more ways than I knew, though. From what I was reading today, there is a lot of conflict between the old business models & the new realities.

Also, & more to the point, the simple explanations we've seen posted as to the cost of books have only a little to do with how they're priced. I don't understand it very well, but from what I was reading, editors are given some very artificial numbers to use to decide if a book is worth publishing. Some of these numbers are marketing & publishing costs (often with 3 publishers involved in each book instead of one) not to mention first print & reprint expectations. Reprint expectations are often ignored. All of these vary greatly between types of books & publishing houses, too.

It's such a mess of weird accounting that I wonder if the publishers really understand how their business works. One of the figures I kept running into was the Fixed OverHead (FOH) charge. It is the same percentage against all books. Sounds OK on the surface until another article revealed that one company grew to carry 300 times as many books with only 18 times as many employees, which pretty much means it has nothing to do with reality. There are other examples, too.

Into this quagmire, technology has now dumped a new kind of 'First Shelf' book, the ebook. I believe it threatens the existing model & conservative executives don't like it. Instead of embracing the new technology, they're scared of it & playing some weird CYA game.

So we get lies, DRM & high prices until they sort things out. Not unexpected with a new technology. We just have to keep telling them what we'll pay for & in a decade or so, the market will settle in.

Lara Amber wrote: "I think it's nonsense.

I get the whole "well ebooks don't disintegrate" but what happens if a real book disintegrates? In a good percentage of cases the library does NOT replace the book. If ..."
Exactly, they may not buy another "library binding" edition, and chances are high that by the time that hardcover needs replacing, the title is now out in mass market paperback.

Michelle wrote: "does anyone have contact info for marketing/management/the prez of HC? this is absolutely worth an angry letter. budgets of public libraries and other "artsy, non-essential" public works have bee..."
The Pioneer Library System made a GREAT video showing books with 26+ checkouts and the state they were in. They also wrote an Open letter to HC and have several methods of contact at the bottom of the letter. http://www.pioneer.lib.ok.us/pls/111-...

"If you would like to contact HarperCollins directly they have set up an email address at [email protected]"

Lara Amber wrote: "Libraries would need to figure out some ground rules and stick to them. In the past, a library would only buy a copy or two, and the distribution was limited to library membership and geographic a..."

I belong to 3 different public libraries, all legally through their own membership policies. The first I joined and still belong to because I "live or work in the borrowing district". (I now only work there.) The second I joined when we moved "over the moutain" and so I live in the district. I have also worked for both of these libraries. Both of these libraries also share the same Overdrive library, its about 20 or so that got together so they could afford it.

The third I joined through the mail just so I could have access to their Overdrive library. But their rules state that I must be a state resident and pay an outside area fee.

The 2 libraries I worked for had similar membership policies. Because all the libraries receive funding from the state library, they cannot deny any state resident a card. But since an outside person doesn't pay taxes there, an outside fee is charged. This happened alot because we would have business folks in the area temporarily but not long enough to qualify for a "free" card. I'm sure HC would have objections to this policy.

Liz wrote: "Michelle wrote: "does anyone have contact info for marketing/management/the prez of HC? this is absolutely worth an angry letter. budgets of public libraries and other "artsy, non-essential" publ..."

Thanks for sharing that open letter. Lots of great information and a greater understanding of the situation. I reblogged about it in a followup this morning: http://mossjon314159.wordpress.com/20...

Now to compose a letter to HarperCollins.

Hi,
I might as well chip in my ten penneth, from an authors point of view. First of all one of Lara Amber's posts on the cost/pricing of the printed work was a little wide of the mark. Don't look at the publishers, who are in my opinion mainly a load of talentless money grabbing unprintables [and that's just the good ones!]
What happens in the real world is a new title comes out, a big retailer thinks oh, we can sell 10,000 of that. So they order 50 even 100,000 to get them cheaper per copy, the catch is they have a sale or return clause. After a few weeks they contact the wholesaler, we don't want any more of 'what ever' book, and the bulk of the copies, which in reality have never left the wholesalers warehouse are now surplus. These are the books you see at £1 for a hard back or two for £1 in the pound shops. Known as 'remainders' it is these that are killing things in the U.K., almost all the paper backs in W.H. Smiths are remainders, bought for about 5p each.
As for the cut a chain such as Waterstones [H.M.V.]
take, they aim at an absolute minimum of 40% of what you pay, usually higher, this is on top of massive discount they demand, usually 30%minimum of normal wholesale price, this in addition to the sale or return clause and extended credit. The only one to lose out is the author, royalties, if paid are a few pennies per copy. O.K if you are J.K. Rowling or Terry Pratchett, who get big 'advances' and I do not begrudge then a single penny.
As for Libraries,a scheme exists where the author gets a 'lenders fee' on books, it is only pennies, but it adds up. Not every one gets it as you have to sign up and mainstream publishers tend to retain ALL rights on any thing the publish so they get the lenders fee, not the author. So, why shouldn't the 'lenders fee' apply to an Ebook?
In case you hadn't guessed, I'm an Indie' author and proud to be 'Indie'
And I'm sorry, but I think my stuff is good enough to be bought, not passed around for free, at least the initial copy. Of course there is a case for swapping books with your mates, lets face it, this has always happened with conventional books. The point being it is still the actual item which was bought in the first instance, One purchase one copy,
I have heard one of them, I believe Amazon's Kindle
is developing a system so if you have a book on your kindle you can 'lend it ' to a friend for a fixed number of days, twenty or so, their copy cannot be 'lent' and while it is on their reader it has gone from yours, to return at the end of the 'loan' and this sounds fair enough to me, as it is 'the one copy one loan system. I may not have got that last bit quite right, but the basics of it are there.
As for H.C. and the other 'big boys', as long as they keep paying people like the Blair's and twenty something celebrities more than banks pay their top brass, then they have to think of 'creative' ways of getting the money to fund the book shops ordering more books than they will ever sell. I feel really sorry for the big publishers and big chains, a collective 'AAAAg poor dears' seems in order as they slip into oblivion!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

Jim wrote: "HarperCollins Publishers Inc. a subsidiary of News Corporation


That tells you all you need to know about this issue. News Corp are leading the charge by rights owners to reinforce the principle of paying for digital content and are fighting the battle on multiple fronts. I suspect they will not win the one about general news because consumers already assume this should be free online but they are going to fight tooth and nail to monetise digital content in as many ways as possible. This battle requires content owners to establish hard lines and many will find those lines unacceptable. That's to be expected, but when they retreat to something more equitable, let's hope that we all have a system in place where consumers value the intellectual property they consume and are prepared to pay for it and not accept the wholesale copyright infringement that is demolishing the music industry right now, will demolish the film industry if it's allowed to and will inevitably demolish the publishing industry unless there is a concerted effort by the rights owners.

This is serious stuff. Songwriters' and musicians' incomes are disappearing and all their support systems are being trashed. This could very easily happen to authors. We're already seeing massive bookshop closures and publishers reducing their deals even with well-established authors.

I don't think forced obsolescence is likely to get many supporters although the principal is not, in my view, without merit - and News Corp. do seem to be rather heavy handed in their methods but you don't win wars by being timid. 26 is probably not an acceptable number - so what is?

S. wrote: "26 is probably not an acceptable number - so what is? "

No number is acceptable if a person has purchased the content legitimately. Even more so for a public library.

I'm not denying the content providers need and should be compensated. I willingly purchase content in a variety of formats for the sole purpose of supporting authors and artists.

But, I admit, when a new author publishes a work or I receive a recommendation for a book outside of my normal comfort zone genre, I prefer to check it out from the library. Reading a sample of said book (often provided by the author and/or publisher) doesn't work for me. I have to know, the first time I read a new author, how the whole package feels clear to the end.

Hi Jon,
interesting points, I suppose it is another symptom of the general 'risk aversion' of modern society, in particular with publishers. It is hard to criticize in the current economic climate and gives credence to the 'trial by ebook' theory. I've got a long way to go getting to grips with all this 'techie' stuff, I can see the merits of using the ebook versions of my books as a sales tool, I just haven't quite worked out how yet!
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

S., I don't think a finite limit on the number of ebook reads is going to sit well with anyone, no matter what the number is. It begs too many questions that, if current software licensing is any indication, we won't like the answers to.

What constitutes a 'read'?
Right now, if you open a trial program, even for a second, that constitutes one use.

Will we see this limitation on personally owned books?
If they get away with it for libraries, I'm sure we will.

What software is in force to oversee this?
Certainly a form of DRM that is already a PITA. It encourages proprietary formats among proprietary readers. Books for the Kindle won't play on my Sony & vice versa, if either have DRM. If they don't, conversion is easy. Proprietary systems suck. Manufacturers like them because they hinder competition. Once you buy in, getting out is murder.

Will this licensing port to other devices?
I doubt it. See above & I've already had experience with this from the library. I downloaded 2 audio books, the first & second of a series, from the library. I burned both to a CD. The first played fine in my car, but the second wouldn't play. Why?

The first was in MP3 format, the second in WMA with digital rights attached. My CD player will play WMA files, but not with digital rights. I checked, but the library had no versions of the second book available in another format.
My options were:
1) Buy a separate player to plug into my car's system that will handle digital rights for somewhere between $100 & $300. That would also mean dealing with the extra wires & hassle.
2) Rip the DRM off the existing files. A good program costs $30. This might be breaking the law, even though it is for a legitimate personal use.

Apple quit putting DRM on their music & I haven't read any horror stories about piracy. I believe their sales are doing just fine. They gained me back as a customer by doing so.

I found this interesting, The 10 Craziest Business Practices of the Book World.

http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/je...

The top one is the returns policy Timothy mentioned earlier.

Timothy, both the Amazon Kindle and Barnes&Noble's Nook offer a "loan". The loan consists of being able to "loan" the ebook to a friend for 14 days. While it is loaned, the book is not available to you. And you may only lend the ebook once. Got several friends who want to borrow a specific book? Too bad, you can choose only one.

I own both, but prefer my Kindle. I got the Nook strictly for library loans since Kindle can't read those files. So, at least on Amazon's side, not all books are available for loan. It is up to the publisher to decide to enable that function, much like 'text-to-speech'. I'd assume that the Nook sees the same thing for their collection.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the link, most interesting. Over here, in the U.K. this is the single most damaging ailment afflicting the industry this side of the pond. Why oh why don't the publishers of J.K. Rowling or Terry Pratchett just say NO, NO WAY, or at least put a 10% cap on returns.
What is happening now is the cause of the demise of our book shops, not ebooks! Of course people buy the cheap copies, these 'remainders' two for a pound etc. but what is giving the reader a cheap copy today is a false economy as the costs of all of these returns must be factored into the costs of the publishers. Which, if carried to it's ultimate conclusion will mean either very expensive books or no books at all from the mainstream. I'm just glad I'm 'Indie' and use P.O.D. and ebooks. I might not sell that many books, but I can sleep at night! content in the knowledge anyone who has bought it have done so because they want it, as opposed to being told they should want it.
I note you also picked up on 'front of house' promotions, this costs thousands, it's probably all that is keeping Waterstones going.
Sad state of affairs.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

Hi Liz,
Thanks for clearing that up, I didn't think I'd got it quite right.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]

Timothy wrote: "Hi Liz,
Thanks for clearing that up, I didn't think I'd got it quite right.
All the best Paul Rix [oldgeezer]"
You had most of it. :) What bothers most owners is the one loan policy. I can lend my paper copy to several friends, why not the e-book? Not being able to access it while its lent makes sense, I can't read my paper copy if I loaned it either. Its the same thing that Overdrive does, only Overdrive titles can be loaned more than once.

On one hand I don't have a problem with HC wanting to put a limit on the number of checkouts. They have a valid concern IMHO. But 26 is way too low of a number. If anything it needs to be in the upper hundreds.

It would be interesting to see what they do about downloadable audio books. I doubt there is a limit there and that I think can be a major agrument. Although it could backfire and get 26 checkouts as well. Libraries do have to replace the discs occasionally.