The Sword and Laser discussion

You may have a different answer if you've read even further than ch. 11 of Sword, but this seems a good place to ask the question, since this chapter is the first time the characters explicitly discuss what the Claw does.

Dorcas reveals she thinks the Claw brought her back from death when Severian fell in the lake (she's just coughed up the metal shots used to weigh the bodies down in the water). Severian thinks she wasn't dead -- perhaps suspended like we've discussed elsewhere.

But Dorcas goes on to say, "this Conciliator of yours who came so long ago was an adventurer from one of the ancient races who outlived the universal death...And I believe he brought with him something that had the same power over time that Father Inire's mirrors are said to have over distance...that gem of yours."

She continues, "Severain, when you brought the uhlan back to life it was because the Claw twisted time for him to the point at which he still lived. When you half healed your friend's wounds, it was because it bent the moment to one when they would be nearly healed."

If the Claw is a time-manipulation device, it would fit in with it also enabling Severian and Agia's time travel to what seems to be our era in the Jungle Hut scene in Shadow, and enhancing the summoning of Apu-Punchau at the end of Claw, among other things.

But if so:

-- Other people, surely Claw-less, were known to also see visions when visiting the Botanical Gardens. Maybe something about the Gardens independently involves seeing into the past, but Severian's possession of the Claw enhanced it?

-- Did the claw alone summon Apu-Punchau? Or rather, since Apu-Punchau is described as a vivimancer who actually calls the living to him, in order to exist again, did Apu-Punchau use the Claw to help himself manifest? And if so, was the witches' ritual of contact the ancient mind on another planet (in order to see Apu-Punchau) a sham?

-- Speaking of Apu-Punchau, what did you think of Severian seeing Hildegrin attack Apu-Punchau, and then suddenly Severian felt as if he himself was Apu-Punchau, struggling with Hildegrin? Could Apu-Punchau be connected to the Conciliator, and that be the reason Hildegrin wanted to kill Apu-Punchau? (Ie, even though it's unclear to me whether Hildegrin really serves the Autarch or Vodalus, it seems both the Autarch and Vodalus would oppose the coming of the New Sun, and thus would fear and be enemies of the Conciliator).

What do you think about the Claw at this point?

definitely a power/control stone of some kind.
I also want to say it has some nano-tech in it as well, or maybe EVERYONE ELSE on Urth has nanotech inside them, and the claw can facilitate their repair functions? It did the whole "reset to default settings" of Jonas, AND was able to influence the muties in the "treasure cave", all the while healing/reviving a random assortment of injuries. Nanos would bridge the gap between all those effects. For me at least. But as for the time travel stuff, i haven't gotten to any parts where that is blatant, nor have i started the final two books.

I have a theory.... I actually don't think the Claw is anything. The power emanates from Severian solely. The Claw is a way for Severian to mentally focus his powers that he doesn't even know he has, but it has no power in and of itself. I'm not sure there's anything obvious in the text that really backs up my theory. I vaguely recall that there might have been a time when Severian thought he had the Claw in his satchel, but he didn't and he was still able to perform some kind of "miracle" without it. I'll see if I can track that down. I hope I haven't spoiled anything.

As far as the Apu-Punchau scene goes, I recall being completely perplexed by that on my first read, but The Urth of the New Sun explains what's going on in that scene fairly clearly. It's worth thinking about and considering the possibilities anyway, of course, but I'll refrain from participating in that discussion.

Adrienne wrote: "There's always Triskele - no Claw there."

Yes, that's one example!

Ah, nice point about Triskele! That'd be very interesting if it does end up being just a placebo object for Severian awakening powers of his own, I'm still not sure yet.

Whether it comes from Severian or the Claw, time-manipulation being the main power in play (as Dorcas theorizes) would seem to pull together various time-travel aspects of the book nicely, and would obviate the need for other technological explanations (the healings are always "bending" time back to before the injury/death, Jonas wasn't rebooted, but just brought to a point before he was wounded, etc).

It's also interesting to contemplate if the times the Claw *doesn't work* have any pattern to them.

I remember hardly anything from The Urth of the New Sun, including the additional details on Apu-Punchau, so I'll look forward to re-reading that, but my idea that he might be linked to the Conciliator is that the Conciliator is also called the "New Sun" and associated with the sun's rebirth -- and Apu-Punchau ("Head of the Day") is another name for Inti, the Inca sun god.

Jlawrence wrote: "Apu-Punchau ("Head of the Day") is another name for Inti, the Inca sun god."

Interesting! I wasn't aware of that.

Adrienne wrote: "I've been thinking about why the Claw glows sometimes, but not others. Maybe it's related to why it sometimes "works" and sometimes doesn't? Urth gave me some ideas about why it might be glowing, but not about why it only glows sometimes. ..."

I have a sketchy idea that the times it fails to heal someone is when that person's death or illness was caused by technology -- for instance it failed on little Severian and Jolenta. Little Severian was killed by some kind of force field around Typhon's statue's ring. With Jolenta, while she was also bitten by some kind of bat, I got the feeling that her death was more due to the gradual failing of the mechanical scaffolding Dr Talos had implanted in her to "goddessify" her. Whereas the times it worked -- Jonas and the uhlan had been attacked by Hethor's creatures, the little boy and girl in Thrax were simply sick, etc.

I don't know if that's consistent with the all the times it works/fails, though.

Yeah, I don't have a good theory as to why it works sometimes and not others, unless it's something in Severian's subconscious that prevents it from working on those occasions that it doesn't.

Well, I was thinking about it, and I think the claw chooses you.

Adrienne wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Well, I was thinking about it, and I think the claw chooses you."

Oh my god, I will never think of the Claw in the same way. The claaaaaawwwww!"

Hahaha!

"Play CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR! Insert 2 aes! (Just 1 aes for Seekers of Truth and Penitence)"

Ed wrote: "I have a theory.... I actually don't think the Claw is anything. The power emanates from Severian solely. The Claw is a way for Severian to mentally focus his powers that he doesn't even know he has, but it has no power in and of itself."

* SPOILERS, Citadel, ch. 8 - 10 *


There's an exchange between Severian and a Pelerine (the first he tries to tell about the Claw) that could support that idea, Ed. She says,

"'I saw the Claw of the Conciliator when it was elevated for our adoration. It was a great sapphire, as big around as an orichalk...As for its working miraculous cures and even restoring life to the dead, do you think our order would have any sick among us if it were so?...If it had been the sort of thing you believe yourself to have, it would have been precious to everyone, and the autarchs would have wrested it from us long ago.'

'It is a claw--' I began.

'That was only a flaw at the heart of the jewel. The Conciliator was a man, Severian the Lictor, and not a cat or a bird.'"

That's a very intriguing idea -- there is no Claw (there is no spoon!), only a jewel called the Claw, and that jewel completely shattered when Baldanders threw it from the castle roof, and what Severian found near the Claw's fragments was *just* an actual animal claw that happened to be in the same area. Not sure I buy that yet, but a very interesting possibility.

The second Pelerine Severain talks to about the Claw, Ava, also thinks him mad, but, having seen Thecla inhabiting him, takes him and the idea of *some* kind of power at play more seriously. When he laments that he didn't try to bring Thecla back with the Claw when he was at Vodalus' feast, Ava argues that he has brought her back -- that Thecla is alive, co-existing with him in a way very different from behavior of the memory-possessed corpse-eaters she's previously seen.

They also discuss the times healing failed, Severian wondering

"Do you think that if something-some arm of the Conciliator, let us say-could cure human beings, it might nevertheless fail with those who are not human?"

That would explain the non-healing of the artificially-enhanced Jolenta, the half-healing of half-mechanical Jonas, but it still doesn't explain why it didn't work on little Severian (there doesn't seem to be anything yet to suggest the boy wasn't human).

Adrienne wrote: "Jlawrence wrote: "...what Severian found near the Claw's fragments was *just* an actual animal claw..."

I'm leaning towards that sort of explanation, but I don't think it's an animal claw. I think..."


The reveal that you're thinking of is actually at the end of Chapter XXXI in Citadel. And it's one of my favorite passages in the Book.

Chris wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "I'm leaning towards that sort of explanation, but I don't think it's an animal claw. I think..."

The reveal that you're thinking of is actually at the end of Chapter XXXI in Citadel. And it's one of my favorite passages in the Book. "


Ah, Adrienne and Chris, I'm looking forward to that, then (I'm nearing the end of Citadel).

In Citadel, ch 18, Severian contemplates some of the same ideas/explanations about the healing power that we've discussed in this thread:

About Triskele, Severian recounts how the dog really did seem dead when he found him, and because of the dog's revival "When I think back on it, it was if I had the Claw already, more than a year before I got it."

On when it doesn't work: "When I had the Claw I found that it would not revive those dead by human acts, though it seemed to heal the man-ape whose hand I had struck off. Dorcas thought it was because I had done it [the striking] myself."

I've always been under the impression that the flaw in the center of gem was in fact the thorn that is the Claw. To be fair, though, I remember almost nothing of Urth of the New Sun, having only read it once (as opposed to three times for the rest of the BotNS.)

I think I've just been assuming that the early Pelerines encased the thorn within the gem...for some reason or another.

Yes, I can buy that too, the gem became known as the Claw once what it encased was forgotten.

Chris wrote: "The reveal that you're thinking of is actually at the end of Chapter XXXI in Citadel. And it's one of my favorite passages in the Book."

I finally read that last night - I agree, it's a great passage!



** FURTHER CITADEL SPOILERS **


And yes, he talks about seeing the same thorn bush in Sand Garden of the Botanical Gardens, which does explain his attraction to that area, which we wondered about in other threads.

In Citadel Chapter 34, Severian also explicitly contemplates Ed's theory which we've discussed here: that the power actually emanates from him, with the Claw just being used for focus. He is frightened by the idea - "I reject and fear it because I desire so fervently that it be true" but continues to contemplate it.

He posits three theories as to where he could have gained such a power. The first is some kind of metaphysical "the-Increate's-symbols effect the real-world" theory that I still don't fully grasp after having read it several times.

The second is that the power is a gift from the beings who will put him through a trial to decide if humanity is worthy of the rebirth of Urth's sun -- that it's actually an award for passing the trial. He muses he's received it *before* taking the trial because perhaps the being's gifts transcend time the way the beings themselves do.

His third theory, the one I find the most interesting but also the most unlikely, is that the gift came from Abaia and the other monstrous enemies of the New Sun. That they saved him from drowning, gave him this power, etc. in order to further debase humanity -- by having a torturer rise to the highest social position on the planet.