Book Nook Cafe discussion

What is this thread? It is the place for our Monthly Group Read for April 2011


Book Lying Awake

Author: Mark Salzman

When: Discussion will begin April 1, 2011. However, you can begin before and continue after that date. The thread will always be open.

Where: The discussion will take place in this thread.

Spoiler etiquette: If you are giving aways a spoiler please write Spoiler at the top of your post or use the GR spoiler tag. The book looks like a super quick read, so if you hate spoilers you might want to read the book before reading this thread.

Book Details:
- paperback
- 181 pages
- copyright 2000

Synopsis:

Mark Salzman's Lying Awake is a finely wrought gem that plumbs the depths of one woman's soul, and in so doing raises salient questions about the power-and price-of faith.

Sister John's cloistered life of peace and prayer has been electrified by ever more frequent visions of God's radiance, leading her toward a deep religious ecstasy. Her life and writings have become examples of devotion. Yet her visions are accompanied by shattering headaches that compel Sister John to seek medical help. When her doctor tells her an illness may be responsible for her gift, Sister John faces a wrenching choice: to risk her intimate glimpses of the divine in favor of a cure, or to continue her visions with the knowledge that they might be false-and might even cost her her life.

About the author:
Born December 3, 1959 (1959-12-03) (age 51)
Born: Greenwich, Connecticut

Mark Salzman (born December 3, 1959 in Greenwich, Connecticut) is an American writer. Salzman is best known for his 1986 memoir Iron & Silk, which describes his experiences living in China as an English teacher in the early 1980s.
Wiki link for full bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Sal...

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Lying-Awake-Mar...

Discussion Questions

* Questions contain SPOILERS


1. How appropriate is the choice of locale of the monastery of Sisters of the Carmel of Saint Joseph in the very heart of Los Angeles rather than in a more pastoral setting?

2. The nuns follow a way of life established for centuries. In what ways, if any, are they allowed to express their individuality?

3. Salzman writes, "The real penance in cloistered life, most Sisters agreed, was not isolation; it was the impossibility of getting away from people one would not normally have chosen as friends" [p. 21]. What incidents in the book support this statement? How does Salzman "humanize" Sister John and the other nuns—for instance, Sister Bernadette, Sister Anne, and Mother Emmanuel—without undermining his portrait of lives dedicated to serving God?

4. What specific roles do these women play in creating the reality of the religious life: the novice Sister Miriam, Mother Mary Joseph, the former prioress, and Sister Teresa, Sister John's novice mistress? What qualities does Sister John share with each of them? What do each of their lives teach her about herself?

5. The story of Sister John's past unfolds gradually throughout the novel. Why are some of her memories [for example, pp. 42–43, pp. 61–62 and pp. 86–90] set in italic type, while other aspects of her background are integrated within the narrative? In what ways did her family situation and her attachment to her teacher, Sister Priscilla, influence her decision to become a nun? Is she drawn to the religious life for spiritual reasons alone, or do other aspects of her life play an equally important part?

6. "For seven years she watched as the cloister got smaller and the silence got bigger . . . and the farther she traveled inward without finding Him, the more aware she became of His absence" [p. 97–98]. How does Sister John's period of spiritual aridity affect the decision she must later make about her medical condition?

7. Is Sister John's interpretation of her mother's visit as "an opportunity to end the relationship once and for all, and to get away with the lie" [p. 105] fair? Is her reaction to the way her mother looks and acts surprising? What does her curiosity about her half siblings tell you about her feelings about her mother's choices and her own? Why does she pull off her wimple and veil after the visit [p. 107]?

8. After years of feeling lost, Sister John finally feels God's presence while making preparations for the Easter service [p. 115–6]. Why are both the setting and the time of year significant? In what way are the circumstances particularly relevant to the teachings of St. Teresa of Avila?

9. Sister John wonders, "How . . . do you talk about infused contemplation with a neurologist?"[p. 47] In reacting to her account of her symptoms, as well as when he recommends surgery
[p. 68], Dr. Sheppard treats her like any other patient. Why doesn't he respond more directly when she says of her pain, "It's a wonderful experience, but it's spiritual, not physical" [p. 47]? Later in the book, Sister John compares the hospital to her monastery and imagines how a doctor might characterize the cloistered life [p. 153]. Is her description an accurate reflection of how most people would regard a celibate life devoted to prayer and contemplation? How does Lying Awake inspire or reinforce ideas about a religious vocation?

10. Sister John wonders whether Dostoevsky would have been treated for his epilepsy if he had had the option. In view of his description of his rapture [p. 120], how would you answer this question? Can artistic inspiration be related to mental imbalances, either physical or psychological? For example, how did the mental instability of artists and writers such as Vincent Van Gogh, Robert Lowell, and Sylvia Plath influence their work?

11. St. Teresa, who suffered epileptic seizures, agonized over how to tell the difference between genuine spiritual experiences and false ones and feared for her own sanity. Is her warning against "seeking illness as a means of cultivating holiness" [p. 121] still relevant today? Why is Sister John's struggle harder in some ways than the difficulties faced by St. Teresa and other Christian mystics of the past?

12. Why does the priest say, "We're all better off having doubts about the state of our souls than presuming ourselves to be holy" [p. 125]? How does this compare to the teachings of most religion and most people's beliefs? To what extent do our behavior and the decisions we make entail making "presumptions" about ourselves and our place in the world?

13. "I made a commitment to live by faith, not by reason,"writes Sister John [p. 119]. In making her decision about surgery, does she rely entirely on faith, or does reason play a role as well?

14. How does the language and style of Lying Awake differ from most contemporary writing? In what ways do the words of the nuns' prayers and Sister John's own poetry enhance the narrative? What details of daily life in the monastery help to establish the themes Salzman is exploring?

Author Interview

contains Spoilers

http://www.readinggroupguides.com/gui...

I read the book last night in one sitting. Some good questions mixed in but i'm glad it was kept short. We are going to be out of town next week, so i will refrain myself from saying much.

One thing i found interesting, and which is hinted at in the questions, is that the reader can, if desired, correlate the events depicted with the date. Each "chapter" is really a date, with the "feast day" mentioned in the heading. (Actually i didn't check them all out, but the ones i knew were accurate, so i made the presumption.) Enjoy.

deborah

Wanted to do some of this while it was fresh in my mind! I usually hate to start off, so I'm only going to briefly do a few of the first questions, but I’ll look forward to delving deeper into discussion. :)

(view spoiler)[Considering that the book discusses and deals somewhat with the harmony and discord of religion and medicine, which I kind of consider to be a joining of the old, traditional faith with modern technology, I’d say the location is very appropriate because it is accomplishing the same thing in joining the two worlds, though without mixing them. I think the author would want the point to be that yes, the monastery is there, but it’s hidden from view for all except those who are looking for it.

The nuns can express a little individuality during their small bits of free time or at night (Sister John does her writing then), but I think part of the point of being a nun is to sacrifice your individuality for the good of the people and to God. Although we are “all God’s children”, the nuns are supposed to think of themselves and their individual wants and desires last, and not focus on their individual connection to God. However, as we are human, we can also be selfish, even nuns, and I think it’s well pointed out in the book that even nuns who have taken their vows are unsure and think about their own connections to God much of the time.

I think Sister John running into Sister Miriam is an obvious example of the novice trying to get away from the ‘success’ of Sister John’s commune with God, but Sister John accidentally finding her anyway. Ideally, in order to avoid jealousy, the other Sisters might simply avoid Sister John, but in such a small place where they interact with one another so frequently, that’s really not possible. Their jealousy over Sister John’s connection with God is an obviously human emotion, despite their efforts to contain it, and because they’re jealous of her peace with God, even in their jealousy they are attempting to better be dedicated to serving God.

Sister Miriam plays the role of the youthful inexperience, and allows the reader to relate to the doubt of someone who isn’t sure about taking her vows and if dedicating her life to God is her true calling. In the end, all of their sacrifice of staying with her through her difficult surgery decision is what teaches her that she cannot be a burden to them and though it may break the connection she believes she has with God, she must go through with it.

I think the reasons for the italic memories are to differentiate between before she decided to become and nun and after. Reflections on her past will always be colored with her experience and by what happened afterward, while the italics are purely in the moment; the child who is asking the question doesn’t yet know the answer.
(hide spoiler)]

Welcome to Book Nook Cafe, Maree ! I am so happy to see you join in the monthly group read for April.

I haven't read the book yet, so I won't comment on your spoiler.

I finished last week, then returned the book, thought I'd retrieve it when people were ready to discuss.

It's no spoiler to say that Sister John's decision about whether to have surgery or not is central to the story. I was interested in how much we learn about the day to day lives of Carmelites, and how much what happens to one, affects the group. I think Salzman does a nice job of making each woman an individual for the reader, and makes Sister John's eventual decision make sense in light of that.

I plan to start reading it today.

Thanks Alias! Yeah, I didn't want to jump in too much until it got closer to April and I had read the right book. :)

Picked it up last night but I found it short so I think I'll start reading it next week. I still have some other I checked out prior which I have not read. I am currently on

Bones of the Barbary Coast: A Cree Black Novel

I read Lying Awake a long time ago, and in the same time frame I read Ron Hansen's Mariette in Ecstasy

The two books remind me of each other. Both were excellent, I thought.

I remember Mariette in Ecstasy too, and remember enjoying it. This one has really lovely language, I think, and has realistically drawn characters who I found to be appealing, despite, or maybe because of their human struggles and faults.

I am only a few pages into the book, however, I was thrilled to read that the religious order they are part of was St. Teresa of Avila's.

I happen to have two bios of St. Teresa on my TBR shelves that I have been wanting to read for ages.

Teresa of Avila: An Extraordinary Life~~Shirley du Boulay

Teresa of Avila: The Progress of a SoulCathleen MedwickCathleen Medwick~~Cathleen Medwick

My favorite quote from St. Teresa is:

Let nothing disturb you
Let nothing cause you fear
God is unchanging
Patience obtains all
Whoever has God need nothing
God alone suffices

Wiki biography link for St. Teresa if Avila
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_o...

I finished the book. It's a quiet contemplative read.

I gave it 3/5 stars which is what I rate most of my reads.

Some of my answers to the discussion questions in post # 2


**** These Q & A contain SPOILERS

1. How appropriate is the choice of locale of the monastery of Sisters of the Carmel of Saint Joseph in the very heart of Los Angeles rather than in a more pastoral setting?
-----------------------

I think it was appropriate. First, it may have been rural when the monastery was first put there.
It is also is appropriate to the story because it is a good metaphor. The world outside, LA being known as a glittery It's all about Me place contrasted with the monastery where it is all about God and not the self.

2. The nuns follow a way of life established for centuries. In what ways, if any, are they allowed to express their individuality?
---------------
Sometimes in beneficial ways such as when Sister John wrote books. Other times in petty ways as the nun who was in charge of the refrigerator.

5. The story of Sister John's past unfolds gradually throughout the novel. Why are some of her memories [for example, pp. 42–43, pp. 61–62 and pp. 86–90] set in italic type, while other aspects of her background are integrated within the narrative?
------------------
I thought the italics were things she wrote.

7. Is Sister John's interpretation of her mother's visit as "an opportunity to end the relationship once and for all, and to get away with the lie" [p. 105] fair?
--------------

I wasn't very clear why this was put into the story. I guess it showed that she was capable of great forgiveness to the person who hurt her the most.


9. Sister John wonders, "How . . . do you talk about infused contemplation with a neurologist?"[p. 47] In reacting to her account of her symptoms, as well as when he recommends surgery
[p. 68], Dr. Sheppard treats her like any other patient. Why doesn't he respond more directly when she says of her pain, "It's a wonderful experience, but it's spiritual, not physical" [p. 47]? Later in the book, Sister John compares the hospital to her monastery and imagines how a doctor might characterize the cloistered life [p. 153]. Is her description an accurate reflection of how most people would regard a celibate life devoted to prayer and contemplation? How does Lying Awake inspire or reinforce ideas about a religious vocation?
-------------

I thought there was no doubt as to what her decision should be. If the visions and feelings were a result of her illness they were not real. Also I am of the opinion if God gives us the ability to cure something through our knowledge of medicine we should do it.

I was also unaware that seizures sometimes have the symptoms listed in the book, especially religiosity. Interesting.

12. Why does the priest say, "We're all better off having doubts about the state of our souls than presuming ourselves to be holy"
---------
To have those feeling would make us haughty &
proud. Being prideful is one of the 7 deadly sins.

14. How does the language and style of Lying Awake differ from most contemporary writing? In what ways do the words of the nuns' prayers and Sister John's own poetry enhance the narrative? What details of daily life in the monastery help to establish the themes Salzman is exploring?
---------------------------
I thought he used this technique to mimic the inner life of the contemplative nuns.

For number 5, Alias, I think they meant the long sections of italics. You're right about the short ones.

Maree wrote: "For number 5, Alias, I think they meant the long sections of italics. You're right about the short ones."
------------

Oh, thank you Maree.

Sorry this book isn't generating any conversation. :(
That hasn't happened to us in a long time.

I find myself not sure what I want to say about this book. Maybe we find it more introspective than most. I am having a busy day so I will try to get back to the actual questions later.

I do know that at first I was sure that she would choose one way until a certain point (you can see me avoiding spoiler here) and one particular conversation and then I knew how she would choose.

The book is a very quick read. So from this point on why don't we just talk about the book. I don't want worry about spoilers to inhibit the conversation. Maybe this will get the discussion going.

*** Warning this thread will contain spoilers from this point on.

This is a minor point, but one thing that struck me was about how hospitals throw away scissors instead of sterilizing them because it's cheaper. First, it struck me as being just WRONG, thrifty person that I am. Second I was charmed by how the doctor gave a box of the implements to Sister John. Nuns aren't wasteful, it seems, and doctors can be very nice.

I mentioned it to a friend who is a nurse, and she said that they do indeed toss scissors once they have been used. Isn't there some way to donate or recycle them, something?

I'm not feeling very literary today.

Bobbie57 wrote: I do know that at first I was sure that she would choose one way until a certain point (you can see me avoiding spoiler here) and one particular conversation and then I knew how she would choose.
------------

I wasn't sure which way the author would go as far as the surgery. However, for me there was no question as to what she should do. The visions/insights were false. So they had no true meaning or value.

Additionally, to not have the surgery would take a simply operation and turn her medical situation into a possible life threatening one.

Many, if not most, religious have doubts. I've read that Mother Teresa went through serious doubts.

I don't recall if she was writing and selling books before she starting having visions. If she didn't then I guess the question would be if should she have the operation even if that would end her writing career and the monastery would lose the much needed income. On the other hand if she continued to write and knew the writing was false would the money made be tainted and would she be leading readers astray with untrue books?

I wonder however, if since I don't think the tumor was life threatening, whether she could have foregone the surgery. What then was her vision? It was questionable whether it was tumor induced even though medically the doctor crushed her with his diagnosis. If she continued with it, could it be interpreted that the tumor was God's way of communicating with her?

I am just taking the what if side here.

I think, Marialyce, that you're definitely hitting on one of the main points of the book. I think the main thing for readers to think about her decision and why she made it.

She said that the church frowned on people who claimed to see God's sendings because they were schizophrenic or epileptic and those visions weren't seen as real even if God had given those people those particular conditions. If she kept the tumor to keep in possible commune with God, then she would be being selfish because she wanted to keep that private connection with God. By giving it up, we're supposed to see that she's doing the worthier thing.

If the tumor was God's way of communicating and it's removed, then I think God can always find another way of chatting. Considering he's God, after all. ;)

Alias Reader wrote: "Sorry this book isn't generating any conversation. :(
That hasn't happened to us in a long time."

I hope to get this book started in the next two or three days, and once I do, I won't be able to resist throwing in my $.02. I'm not really keeping up with the thread yet because I don't like to read the posts too carefully before I read the book.

Marialyce wrote: "I wonder however, if since I don't think the tumor was life threatening, whether she could have foregone the surgery."
--------------

If she didn't have the surgery, wouldn't the tumor grow and become life threatening? I no longer have the book, and can't recall what the doctor told her.

I understand there is a protocol and chain of command, but did anyone think it sad that she had to go to a male priest for advice and not a female in her monastery? Perhaps she wanted to keep the matter private. However, to me it read that she felt advice from a female would have been inferior to a male. I guess it is the way one is taught. Anyway, this struck a cord with me. I thought is was sad.

While i understand what you are thinking about going to the priest, Alias, i also think she wanted to keep some of those thoughts away from the other nuns. Generally speaking i'm against the idea of turning to a priest just because he is a priest but in this case i felt she wanted someone who could understand her dilemma but not be one of the members of her order. I doubt she could have turned to someone who had not taken vows.

Two decades ago i was close to an order of nuns and learned that (at least in that order) the turning to priests for so many issues grated against the younger nuns. Most of them didn't want to be priests but they did feel that the men were not blessed with any special abilities to process information the nuns shared. That the older nuns did & that the thoughts/ideas of priests were given more weight than the females of the order was a mental trial for nuns my age. Just thought i'd throw that into the mix, even though it's a small part of the novel.

deb

Yes, I agree, Deb. That is the way it was presented in the book. I was just throwing it out there.

I remember when we read Doubt. It was noted that only the female orders had to follow the strict rules of silence even during meals.

I have no idea if this is true or not.

I finished reading the book yesterday, found it very short. I found the book to be missing something, maybe I was expecting a little more. With that I feel I would have been more connected with the story. I did find that it gave me better insight on the nuns, their lives, routines and beliefs. I’ll probably end up giving the book 3 stars.

I think the book would boil down to those who have faith believing it was God, God gave her the tumor which caused the seizures / feelings . Those with the scientific mind would say everything was caused due to a non-malignant growth. Did not know that some people with Temporal lobe epilepsy have feelings that they are closer to God or some other entity /spirit .

Did a little research and found this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsD...

With this in mind makes me wonder how many people that believe they saw or heard an angel /spirit/ God etc. were actually suffering from a seizure. I state this with no disrespect to anyone’s beliefs.

I think that if they would not have taken the tumor out it might have grown bigger and made her worse. I think she was considering leaving it, but then she thought she did not want to end up being a burden on the sisters, to her that would have been selfish.

Jorge wrote: Did not know that some people with Temporal lobe epilepsy have feelings that they are closer to God or some other entity /spirit .
-------------

I didn't know that either.

------------

Jorge- I think that if they would not have taken the tumor out it might have grown bigger and made her worse. I think she was considering leaving it, but then she thought she did not want to end up being a burden on the sisters, to her that would have been selfish.
-----------

Good point, Jorge. Maybe the scenes where she is helping the elderly sister, who has dementia, was a factor.

I also agree with your point that the novella seems to be missing something. It's so short, it's almost like reading a play. There isn't really enough depth to the characters to get really involved with them.

Alias Reader wrote, in response to Jorge: "I also agree with your point that the novella seems to be missing something. It's so short, it's almost like reading a play. There isn't really enough depth to the characters to get really involved with them.
..."

I'm in agreement as well. It's as though we are supposed to take the book with some faith as well. OR maybe that it's written with the faith we will be able to fill in what the author has left out? Either way, i wasn't attached and even failed to feel the urgency of Sister John's dilemma, even though i felt it.

This may be because last October i pondered much on this thought as we toured Avila and learned much about St. Teresa's life. The museum dedicated to her life was rife with examples of visions and thoughts which today would be under so much scrutiny the woman would be hounded. It disturbed me so much that i walked away thinking Teresa was misused by the church, which made this book more relevant to me.

Jorge asked, With this in mind makes me wonder how many people that believe they saw or heard an angel /spirit/ God etc. were actually suffering from a seizure...

My sister is diagnosed manic-depressive but in later years that has been questioned due to her identifications having to do with religion. While she has no seizures, and without going into detail, i will state that i think matters of faith are ripe arenas for those with mental illness, partly due to the "faith" aspect. I found it interesting that the book states that prior to entry into the order questions of epilepsy and mental illness are addressed.

deborah

Alias Reader wrote: "I remember when we read Doubt. It was noted that only the female orders had to follow the strict rules of silence even during meals

I have no idea if this is true or not..."

It seems to me that there are orders of monks who also have this rule but this information may be derived from reading fiction. :-)

deb

Below are a few of the italicized thoughts from either Sister John or St. Teresa. These stuck in my mind enough to save. The dates note which chapter i found them. The slashes (as may be obvious) denote a new line.

1994 March 27. "I do not think; I am thought./I do not know; I am known."

1997 Sept. 14. "'Yes!'/The only word I will ever need again. Every breath a/Yes, every thought a Yes."

1997 Sept 27. "Am I really a person who lives by faith? God can surely tell the difference between someone who walks in darkness and someone who walks with her eyes shut."

1997. October 15. "If I serve Thee in hopes of Paradise,/deny me Paradise./If I serve Thee in fear of hell,/condemn me to hell./But if I love Thee for love of Thyself,/then grant me Thyself."

The quote about "yes" is a good one. I've been thinking about the word quite a bit lately. As a former "yes woman", when asked to do volunteer work, for example, i began to think of it as a negative. Recently i've begun to appreciate the peace of yes, so found it interesting to read that line in this context.

deb

Thanks for your thoughts about "Yes". It is so easy for me anyway to become overwhelmed with projects that people think I can or should do. So -- learning to say No has been more useful to my leading a balanced life.

Also -- I don't know how much I thought I knew about tumors and religious visions, but I do know that the symptom of voracious writing being caused by a tumor was definitely new to me.

I thought that I might have a different take on the book as a whole if I had other religious beliefs myself. The comment that it seemed almost as if we were reading a play rang true to me.

Madrano wrote: This may be because last October i pondered much on this thought as we toured Avila and learned much about St. Teresa's life. The museum dedicated to her life was rife with examples of visions and thoughts which today would be under so much scrutiny the woman would be hounded. It disturbed me so much that i walked away thinking Teresa was misused by the church, which made this book more relevant to me.
--------------

Your trip sounds so interesting, Deb. Did you read any bios of St.St. Teresa's ?

Madrano wrote: 1997. October 15. "If I serve Thee in hopes of Paradise,/deny me Paradise./If I serve Thee in fear of hell,/condemn me to hell./But if I love Thee for love of Thyself,/then grant me Thyself."
------------

Thanks for posting the quotes, Deb.

I remember when I read the quote

-- 1997. October 15. "If I serve Thee in hopes of Paradise,/deny me Paradise./If I serve Thee in fear of hell,/condemn me to hell./But if I love Thee for love of Thyself,/then grant me Thyself." --

it struck a chord with me because of a Amish book I had just read. The sentiment seemed the same.

The Amish book centered around the question of how they were able to forgive so quickly the murder of their children.

The answer they said can be found in the Lords Prayer. Their very own salvation depended on their forgiving.

The author wrote:

"More frequently, however, Amish people referred to the Lord’s Prayer found in chapter six of Matthew’s Gospel. In fact, the first response to my question was, “Well, it’s in the Lord’s Prayer.” Amish people pointed out the statement that says “Forgive us our transgressions as we forgive those who transgressed against us.” In addition, one bishop explained that “forgiveness is the only thing that Jesus underscored in the Lord’s Prayer.” “Look at the next two verses,” he continued excitedly. He was right. Those verses focus on forgiveness. “If you forgive, you will be forgiven. If you don’t forgive, you won’t be forgiven.” For the Amish, forgiveness is not a one-dimensional relationship between an individual and God. Rather, their acceptance of God’s forgiveness means that they need to pass it on to others and, if they balk at forgiving others, they may jeopardize their very salvation. “If we don’t forgive, we won’t be forgiven,” they say. "
http://www.amishnews.com/amishforgive...

There was one line in the book or lines which got to me. I don't remember the exact words it was Sister John in trying to still her mind. Where she said something to the effect that there is an ocean in there where am I supposed to put it ?
I thought it was a great line since I on occasion meditate and sometimes do feel is if I have an ocean in my head and can not still it. Some thought or other comes up.

General answers to above posts.

Alias, i didn't read a bio. It was my intention to do so but i ran out of time. Now i don't think i could do so, to be honest.

Re. the "Lord's Prayer". My mother always focused on "thy will be done." She felt that if she could always keep that phrase in mind all the rest of the prayer was unnecessary. I always found that interesting.

Jorge, i vaguely recall that comment about the ocean of ideas & where to put them. Like you, it's the hardest part of meditation for me. Well, that & falling asleep. ;-)

Bobbie, St. Teresa is probably one of the better known examples in latter day church history who is known for her writing. My own sister, who is not particularly gifted in speech, writes strong prose when her mental health is failing. In fact, one way we know she is "off her meds" is when she starts writing non-stop. The last time she let me read the journal and i was in awe of A)how much her writing had to do with religion and B) how crystal many of her observations were.

Now that i really think about it, i suppose this is why visiting Avila was rather disturbing to me. The idea that so many people were taken with St. Teresa's ecstatic books & prayers. It truly seemed more like a cult. Enough already, deborah!

Sometimes, Deb, a religion can be a cult.

I think perhaps an atheist would like this book because it gives a medical reason behinds visions and being in god's presence.

I have to admit it made me think again of faith in the way in which we believe that others are holy and that religious fervor can possibly have a bit of medically based background to it.

My mother who is extremely religious has been touched by the holy spirit a few times at healing/touching/laying of the hands celebrations. She has passed out whe the priest with the gift touches her and others. Interestingly enough they actually have people who catch the fainters.

I am constantly worried when she does go to one of these and think that there might be an element of group hysteria in it.

Marialyce wrote: "Sometimes, Deb, a religion can be a cult.

I think perhaps an atheist would like this book because it gives a medical reason behinds visions and being in god's presence.
..."

Marialyce, i agree with your first statement, although i admit to being tempted to call all religion cults. I am an atheist and have done much research, so was glad to see Salzman entertain a question of the visions they way he did. It felt more balanced than i expected.

I can imagine your fear about your mother at her service. I suppose, given what i just shared above, you are not surprised to learn that i fully agree with the group hysteria bit, eh? An aunt of mine used to belong to a church which celebrated with the healing, "gift of tongues" and other active aspects to their service. The entire experience was fascinating to watch, as well as uncomfortable since i wasn't joining in. (This was before i came to my present thoughts about religion, btw.)

It's such a contrast to the meditative life described in the book, isn't it? Your comments have me thinking more about the various ways of expressing one's beliefs. Thank you for mentioning it.

deb

Deb and Marialyce, have you seen Jesus Camp? Group hysteria indeed! Frightening, IMO. Google it and you can see a trailer.

I removed the spoiler tags from my post #15, if anyone wants to comment on my answers to the questions.

No, I haven't yet, JoAnn. I have to admit the more I read the less I like organized religion. I always think that God would not have wanted thi gs the way man has created them. It bothers me that most of the ills of the world have come from religious based issues.

It is always good for me to remind myself that this is man made and as such is fallible.

Deb, I do believe in a supreme being, but do not believe much in organized religions. I was indoctrinated as a kid and found many things that were pretty much "beat into me" to be false now. It was not a great way to learn about God.

In this book, I thought Sister John was in the convent just because there was no other place for her to go. I feel bad for all religious, particularly of the Catholic variety, who deny in a way human nature to stay celibate in their dedication to God. I really don't think God wanted that since weren't many of the apostles married? This to me is another example of a man made, not god made tenet.

Marialyce wrote: "I ..... do not believe much in organized religions. I was indoctrinated as a kid and found many things that were pretty much "beat into me" to be false now.."

AMEN!!! Same here.

I just cracked up a couple of weeks ago when it was announced that the BIBLE was being changed to be more gender-neutral (to be more PC, IMO). So much for the sanctity of its words!

Marialyce wrote: "No, I haven't yet, JoAnn. I have to admit the more I read the less I like organized religion. I always think that God would not have wanted thi gs the way man has created them. It bothers me that m..."

'Phew" sometimes I think I was the only one that thinks like this. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Believe it or not I went to a catholic university had to take 2 classes on religion. The professor taught it totally as a scholar no bias on anything. As he warned prior to the beginning of the class some of you will end up with more questions than before, I was one of those.

Jorge, the demise of my affiliation with religion was a course I took during my freshman year of college - The Bible as Literature, taught by a very devoutly Catholic professor. But he revealed, inadvertently or perhaps deliberately, many cracks in the foundation of organized religion. I finished the course questioning if any of the bible was real/true/reliable. I think you probably know my answer!

I later found out that many students called this course "The Bible as Tall Tales".

JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "Deb and Marialyce, have you seen Jesus Camp? Group hysteria indeed! Frightening, IMO. Google it and you can see a trailer."

Yes, i saw it a year or so ago. It was stunning and a confirmation. Hook 'em young, eh? Btw, that camp was where we used to live, just down a dirt road from our duplex. Nice area, actually. Although...i think it's now underwater, as is much of that area, Devils Lake is shrinking because there is no natural outlet for its waters. Hundreds of homes are now totally underwater.

ANYway, interesting movie. Scary movie.

deb

Marialyce wrote: "In this book, I thought Sister John was in the convent just because there was no other place for her to go...."

I meant to ask others what they thought of this aspect of Sister John & the order. Good idea? While i understand welcoming her (& others), i was sorry there wasn't some mention of whether the order thought she needed more life experience or love. Of course, they may have presumed she had some, as she did have loved ones.

It was a good contrast to the latest nun, who had, in fact, lived a successful life yet still wanted to join. Another example of what i felt was a bit of the positive of the book, varied backgrounds of the women who entered. I liked the length, yet i wouldn't have minded a bit more about them. Typical me.

deborah

Alias Reader wrote: "1. How appropriate is the choice of locale of the monastery of Sisters of the Carmel of Saint Joseph in the very heart of Los Angeles rather than in a more pastoral setting?
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I think it was appropriate. First, it may have been rural when the monastery was first put there.
It is also is appropriate to the story because it is a good metaphor. The world outside, LA being known as a glittery It's all about Me place contrasted with the monastery where it is all about God and not the self...."

This is the Q & A from Alias. The LA setting was a curious one which he barely developed, rather letting us make our own conclusions, if desired. In the beginning i expected more about that. Afterall, there are many metropolitan areas which could have been the setting. Most people, i suspect, associate LA with the entertainment industry, so one wonders how much this played into the setting.

My real thought when i gave it consideration was that Salzman wanted us to think about the active real & film lives in contrast to the lives the nuns led. Which is real? Are either relevant to the way most of us live our lives? Or is the contrast what piques our curiosity?

deborah

I'm afraid I was more simple minded considering the setting. There really is a Carmelite convent in LA, and he lives in Los Angeles, so it makes perfect sense to set the novel there. There's another one in rural Wisconsin, but that bucolic setting doesn't set the reader up so much to see the differences between the nuns' lives and those of "ordinary" folks. The contrast between the lives of ritual and contemplation the nuns live there in CA is a huge contrast to LA's glitzy atmosphere. I'm not sure there is more to it than that.

Besides stating that the convent was in LA, I agree with Deborah, he really didn't develop this at all.