Queereaders discussion

Are you one of those people who use the "f" word to refer to gay people, even playing with your friends? Some of us don't like it, don't think it's amusing or flattering or a part of the "in" slang. In fact, some feel it is no better than other racist terms used to refer to people of color, even if it used with people who don't mind or 'among their own.'

My article: "The Other 'F' Word." http://redhaircrow.com/2012/03/31/the...

The word fag has such negative connotations and is so offensive to me, that I would never use it under any circumstances. The "N" word also has never been part of my vocabulary. Maybe it's my age, but I was never too big on slang language of any kind.

I guess it's a love of language for me that I find so many interesting and descriptive "unslang" terms. There's little or no reason for me to use slang, and I rarely do so.

Plus, for me, having been called all kinds of racist and sexist terms before, using such words among friends or as a joke, isn't how I wish to treat them. I've found that those who've really had to live with being called slang or racist/sexist terms, where they had no control or it, or it could mean a dangerous situation for them...they don't find it humorous either.

Ironically enough, from my observation, it is the many younger people of any group and/or those who've not experienced direct affective discrimination or harrassment, whether it involves race or sexuality or religion etc., that seem to find it funny, cute or hip. Of whatever age, when (if) they actually see the effects and seriousness of what it can detrimentally mean, not so funny anymore.

I thought to add also: the effects such words can have on others....

I just never understood using anything behavior or words which might be offensive in general. Seems a common sense thing not to do so. I never thought it hip, funny or cute either.

I never use that 3-letter word, even in its "accepted" sense of queer to queer.

In my school days 'queer' was as pejorative as 'fag' and I still feel a bit queer using 'queer' today, though am slowly desensitizing myself.

But you know, we all have our sacred cows and sometimes it takes being offended to be forced to examine them closely—speaking generally here. I think it impossible to go through life without offending someone, sometime. And sometimes being offensive is required to make a point. IMO it is wrong when done in anger, hate or even out of ignorance.

I don't use queer either personally, not for objectionable reasons, but because I don't need to. From my view, it doesn't describe me or the people I know, even if they are gay or homosexual.

I agree at some point in time each can inadvertently offend someone, although I also think there are those who do not feel reason to be offended whatever the provocation.

I do not in any way agree it is necessary to be offensive to make a point or that it takes being offended to examine something closely. We believe simply asking someone why they did or said a certain thing and pointing out our objections or feelings should be enough for someone with common sense to modify their own behavior. Rather like a collective cognizance of the need to be tolerant.

I believe any pertinent point can be made with rational discussion if the parties in question truly wish to be learn something to better themselves and others lives.

Red wrote: "...I believe any pertinent point can be made with rational discussion if the parties in question truly wish to be learn something to better themselves and others lives. .."

If only life were so simple....

Kernos wrote: "If only life were so simple...."

Life is what you make it. And as I live real life and stated what I did because that's what the people where I'm from do for the most past, and have done successfully a number of times...that's simply how our life goes. You expect it and give it.

It's unfortunate some people live in societies or exist in situations where that is not possible. Makes for cynicism similar to what you expressed, and in some, actually goes over into apathy. Things I don't accept as inevitable.

Perhaps as you grow older, Red, you'll understand what I said was not cynical at all.

I was never called a fag in high school, well, not to my face anyway, but the word still cuts deeply. I don't usually get called it much, but when people use it as a part of their everyday language, it hurts. It's not so much the word itself, but the way they say it. When they say it, it's almost like it is dripping with disgust, and that being gay is the worst thing in the world.

My sister actually called my dog that when one of her friends was over this weekend. My glare at her said all that I was thinking.

Kernos wrote: "Perhaps as you grow older, Red, you'll understand what I said was not cynical at all."

For one thing Kernos, what you imply is insulting, that because of my age of 39, I do not have adequate experiences, information or knowledge upon which I make my comments. In that same vein, you are projecting that somehow you have a precipice upon which you stand, higher than myself, from which you feel you can condescend. I have no idea what your age is as I've not looked, but I would never insult you by trying to play on that.

"Makes for cynicism similar to what you expressed"...I didn't say what you said was cynical, especially in that you made a general statement, I said it could be perceived as cynicism.

No matter what someone's age is, they can understand experiences of life, and considering my life which you don't know, has been well beyond what many older people ever can or will experience. When you try to use age as a factor, ignoring a person's life and experiences, that could be considered just one step away from using race or nationality or religious views as a basis to suggest one's own superiority. Discrimination and bias is the same whatever its source and whoever uses it. The rejection of different realities just because it doesn't exist in one's own world or one doesn't acknowledge it, doesn't mean it is not true or valid.

Anything which is an improvement that speaks of hope, understanding, and betterment, even if it came to me from a five year old child, I consider worthy of attention. I would never dismiss it or minimalize it because of source. So much of the problems we have in the world today, GLBTIIQ and beyond, can be traced back to the source of those who think their view is superior to others. I find it really disappointing when someone who not only expresses views as you do but seems to really believe them, as if it is fact.

I have witnessed that such views are disheartening to younger people, because expressions like you've made discount their very real views and the situations they've endured or exist in. Basically what you've said is: if someone is not of a certain age, their feelings and observations are not as worthy, valid or important as other people who are older. That is a mentality that has continued to factor into depression, anxiety and yes, even suicides of "the younger." If you hadn't thought of it to that degree, then you seriously need to reexamine the comments you make and the attitudes you display.

I am very glad there are those who will never let people keep us from being good and doing good to others. Those who respect others for who they are, and not use a kind of bias against them just because they are not a certain age.

Cole wrote: "I was never called a fag in high school, well, not to my face anyway, but the word still cuts deeply. I don't usually get called it much, but when people use it as a part of their everyday language..."

You make a very good point Cole.

I've been called the "N" word more than once in my life and have had gay friends who were called the "F" word. I have never thought that using derogatory terms to address people was cute, hip or funny.

I also don't believe in reclaiming terms or that putting an "a" at the end of the "N" word instead of an "er" makes it a different word.

To use derogatory terms flippantly is, in my opinion, to insult the individuals oppressed by those terms.

It's like young kids today who think the "N" word is okay to use, especially if it's one black person addressing another black person. They may never have faced the bigotry and racism that gave birth to that term but they have no right to make light of prejudice, hardships and adversities that others have faced.

The same goes for gay people who fought against being called the "F" word and fought to be treated with respect. They fought those things so that the young gay people today could feel even just a little safer being open and honest about who they are.

That goes for any group of people who've been persecuted and had to fight for their basic human rights.

Red wrote: "Kernos wrote: "Perhaps as you grow older, Red, you'll understand what I said was not cynical at all."

For one thing Kernos, what you imply is insulting, that because of my age of 39, I do not have..."

You're right Red and I apologize. I don't agree with what you said about age at 66, but would have at 39. But, will just leave it at that.

I sometimes hear gay men referring to other gay men as "fags" in an off-handed way, and I assume they think nothing of it because it is being said "within the ranks," so to speak. Thus they consider it okay or even cool. It is not unlike blacks referring to other blacks as "niggers" in rap songs. (Ever listen to the lyrics of "In Da Club"?)These words are either used to refer to old, negative, stereotypes in someone's behaviour or actions, as a putdown, or as a (misguided) way to sound casual and cool among friends. The difference is in the context. I doubt people are going to stop using these words anytime soon within their own groups because it's easier to say "The cover of that magazine is so faggy" than it is to say "Those male models look so feminine posing that way." (One is snappy and to the point, the other is not.) I doubt that many of those using the F word within our own circle analyze it, and I'm sure they would deny they have any intent of perpetuating hatred in doing so. To me this is a case of "lazy language." The F word is a lingual stink-bomb and best sent to the Obsolete File or Trash Bin. An upgrade in our communication habits is long overdue. (You may want to check out my author blog, inwhich I include a tirade about why I hate the term "Fag Hag.")

Maybe I'm horribly British (although genetically only half so), but the only time I've ever used that word is when asking for a cigarette - "Can I bum (have one for free) a fag?"

Which is using it as its original sense - something like a twig, to do with kindling or something to do with starting fires, which makes sense in terms of cigarettes.

I don't really like any of the slang terms for non-heterosexual sexuality. Even "queer" (abnormal? wtf?) irks me. I know that the lgbti community have apparently agreed to take back that particular word and wear it proudly, but I honestly don't think that my sexuality is abnormal, and a) don't think it needs to be labelled, and b) don't think that a word that has connotations of "strangeness" or "abnormality" is a particularly positive choice. Simply deciding to give a word a new meaning isn't always that effective. Also, when they say "the gay community has decided to take it back" - Who? No one asked me.

As for slang in general - I'm young, but I use pretty neutral slang, like "cool, man" and so on. I absolutely hate the whole "cool" or "hip" usage of offensive terms, like "gay" = "stupid" (grrr!) or "fag" = "someone who I, like, totally don't think is as super-duper coolio as me, like, whoa, so I shall make closed-minded assumptions about their sexuality, which actually have no bearing on their value as a person, because I'm, like, awesome". I think it's just stupid.

"Gay" literally means happy, joyous, free. As in Maria frollicking on the musical hilltops. I think that's a good word, even though it doesn't really have much to do with sexuality, because it has connotations of happiness rather than strangeness or abnormality.

"Fag" - a twig - has nothing to do with sexuality. It's archaic in its true usage, and moronic in its slang usage. Ditch it, dudes and dudettes.

"Dyke" - only really makes sense when you're talking geography. I've never met a lesbian who resembled Slavic scenery, so, this one is equally silly.

"Queer" - strange, statistically abnormal, odd - but the thing is, we're not that weird. Well, maybe we are. I'm weird, and I'll admit it, but I'm weird because I would rather sit in bed knitting than go drinking with friends. My sexuality doesn't make me weird, and there's nothing weird about my sexuality. I just don't give a rat's ass about someone's genitals when falling in love with them. I think it's weirder to be more preoccupied with chromosomes and genitalia than with the person themselves.

No one on earth is an identical clone of another person (well, not yet, anyway). We're all different, so there's no such thing as normal. So we're all abnormal. So we're all queer. So calling this person or that person or oneself "queer" is as redundant as calling certain people "human". Why bother?

Thanks for tellin' it like it is Katherine. What a great, funny post and sharp commentary on the absurdity of how we use words! I guess I'm not the only one who cringes a little each time I hear the word "queer." This word makes it sound like we are strange little creatures that popped off the pages of an Edward Gorey book! Other words or terms I find either woefully off the mark or icky include: 'dyke' (sounds industrial, not human); the afore mentioned 'fag' (any word used by that many pimply, self hating homophobes while they are bashing gays should be banished from our own vocabulary!); and the ever popular word 'gay' itself (I guess we're stuck with it, but it sounds either absurdly frivolous or woefully dated, as in "I'm feeling ever so gay tonight." Gag..) Enough of the bizarre words and dated labels!

On the bright side, the current usage of the word "gay" makes the Chronicles of Narnia (and other classic works of literature) a highly entertaining read - more so than they may have been before.

Or maybe I just have a twisted mind.

:D Thanks!

I completely agree with your thoughts about the word "queer." It especially irks me, being in academia, when "Queer Theory" is discussed seriously in relation to scholarly studies of books and media. It's an awful word and does not reflect the diversity within the community. LGBT works fine, even if it's not a "real" word. Perhaps it should be though.

I have problems with queer too. Having owned up to my identity at 33 after 10 years of marriage and 2 kids, I used to say I was queer until I came out. Now I realize I'm Gay. And trying to live as a straight man was a very queer experience. In those days 'queer' was pejorative as it was when I was an adolescent. I've been trying to get-over-it since modern GLBTs have reclaimed the word, with some success.

Where I lived then, in the Midwest, Lesbians where just starting to separate themselves from the Gay label and there was a lot of controversy over whether it was properly Gay and Lesbian or Lesbian and Gay, so it was with GLB or LGB. T came later. It seemed boys and girls could argue about just about everything.

Matt wrote: "From where I am it seems like there's some arguing going on over the names we use. Sometime I'm kind of amused by the whole thing, but then I think it's probably just us as a community trying to define our identity, which may, in the end, be somewhat impossible to do. "


I think part of the problem is when people use words like "we" and include all GLBTIIQ people as if we are a whole, when it's obvious we're individuals. When people start labelling us as a whole, especially using such terms as if everyone thinks them okay (or conversely trying to enforce that no one should use them) that's when misunderstanding occur. For example, just because I happen to be gay does not make me a part of any certain community based solely on that fact (reference the other article of mine post last week I think, Homo-Ignorance).

It is possible to know one's own identity, it's a reality for some people to know. So it is not "us" trying to define our identity, though I realize the inclusion might mean members of this group on Goodreads or even the US, but Queereaders is internationally accessed. A nicely fluid idea as well.

Matt, I remember your age, etc. from another group. I can very well understand what you wrote and that's great you have that place. And I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with that, or that I am not part of a community of some sort. I am a part of several different kinds for a varieties of reasons. I just never think of them as that, because just for me that feels exclusionary.

You clarified, but I was just questioning making a broad generalization of "us" and "we" when they applied in your situation, your world basically, but your expression was understandable and something, of course, I'm familiar with.

I was very far indeed from "knocking" a community of all kind, or saying it doesn't work for some or there's a problem with it. Nothing of the sort, don't misunderstand, please.

Red, you are certainly right in saying there is no "we", that we are diverse individuals, but the ongoing popularity of gay pride parades and the like suggests that many still want and feel that sense of "community". Young people and people just coming out in particular need that feeling that they are part of community, not just an individual dealing in a vaccum with the issues of being gay. In the seventies, there indeed was more of a sense of community; it is more polarized now, with a galaxy of diverse groups,a desire for assimilation and "normalcy", and a tendency among some to scoff at 'community" as something dated and hopelessly romaticized. Writers in particular tend to be fiercely independent in their approach to life, but not everyone is. To me, one can encourage independent identity while still enjoying the feeling of being part of a "community." They need not negate one another. You can still "do your own thing" and put your arms around a bunch of other gay people and sing "We are Family."Considering how many gays there are whose families still shun them for being gay, it is easy to see why the idea of a community is still important to so many.

Steven wrote: "Red, you are certainly right in saying there is no "we", that we are diverse individuals, but the ongoing popularity of gay pride parades and the like suggests that many still want and feel that se..."

Steven, you might want to reference my other article at the same website: "Do we really need gay pride parades and celebrations?" Just a question posed in general after a discussion on a forum board at a specifically gay website, with a number of opinions from all sides. I go to them regularly by the way, throughout Europe. So when you say, "many still want and feel", it seems to me you say it as if I am not aware of that fact and reality, and I am.

As a psychology grad student also, specializing in gender studies, I am also very well aware of the needs of the young people and those coming out, as I also have a young teen son (14) who is doing so and work closely with a child & adolescent psychiatrist who founded and helps run a home for GLBTIIQ young people in the UK.

And as I said, clearly, quoting myself: "I was very far indeed from "knocking" a community of all kind, or saying it doesn't work for some or there's a problem with it. Nothing of the sort, don't misunderstand, please."

I appreciate the generalness of your comment, but I don't understand what seems to be your admonitions to me. You would have to actually know me first to try to do so, especially my own background, as you've intimated a number of things that are very incorrect.

Matt wrote: "Sometime I have been known to be purposively provocative with others just to force myself to think clearer or deeper."

:-) I like that. My son does it, and it may irk me in the 1st second, then in the very next I'm laughing. I think it's wonderful and it helps me learn also.

what an absorbing discussion. i always forget how loaded words can be and it is good to be reminded. i also always forget how context and history can have such a profound impact on a person's emotional reaction to any word. remember, mark, remember!

personally, i have no issue with the words Queer or Gay, and call myself both on a regular basis, without irony (although, to be exact, i am bi). the divisive word Fag is also not a problem for me, although it really depends on who is saying it, i suppose, theoretically. i have never had a real experience of being demeaned for being queer - although of course i can empathize with folks who have and respect why such words make them uncomfortable.

i was really involved in Act-Up and Queer Nation long ago when i lived in san diego, and that may contribute to my lack of issue with some loaded words. we used them regularly to describe each other!

my closest friends are all straight guys i've known for well over 15 years, and it is just really hard for me to get genuinely offended when i'm called gay or a fag by them. or when they use gay voice, ugh. it doesn't make me particularly joyous either, lol, but we are pretty rough with each other verbally and i am maybe the worst of the lot on that front. perhaps i don't get my feelings hurt because i know they are not homophobic and that they share my extremely leftist philosophy on life. i also figure that because they all work in the trades (carpentry, construction, cabinet-making - often verbally insensitive environments, or at least one where slinging around Gay and Fag is a more commonly accepted practice than the environment i work in, social services), they have perhaps just become sort of blase about talking all sorts of shit, at times.

but all the above is not to say that i don't appreciate how other folks can hate the use of any of those words. i truly do, and i respect it. it's just not my own perspective.

As you indicated,Red, my comments were general, not personal. I misunderstood the opening statement in your post, but you explained this very well in another post. I think it's great that you initiate such thought-provoking discussions; such passion is much needed.

Yes, I think it can very much depend on society and environment. I've lived long periods of time in the USA, but am currently back in Germany...and it is officially not acceptable to call any sorts of terms whether it's racial, sexual, nationalistic, etc. and you can be penalized for doing so. Besides in general it's considered rude, uncultured and low class. It doesn't matter your profession. That's just the understandable changes made to German society following the Nazi era with all its hideousness, public and private, known and/or tolerated, it is a strong policy people as a whole support.

That being said, certainly among peers or one's personal friends or groups, certain terms might be used and it isn't an issue really, but one still asks the questions...if it does bother one at any time, why is it allowed at any time? It's no a matter of getting one's feelings hurt or anything like that. We just don't consider it acceptable to make anyone else feel badly at anytime just because we want to say or do a certain thing.

That's the other half of the spirit in Germany, it's the general consensus, (and considered obligation in some circumstances, or you also become culpable) you speak up for yourself or anyone else if someone uses any of such words. "Never again", any kind of intolerance or censure for by word, actions or deed. Admittedly, there are portions of the population where that's still a problem. The special irony is, is someone insists to behave a way or say things, then they are left to it. Tolerance again, which is why I can leave it and just concentrate on something else.

I'm going to post the majority of the article here, as the discussion on the thread isn't generally what the article is about. It's more an introspective look on what it really means for some people, and whether one chooses to continue to using knowing the negativity it can contribute to their various societies overall.

When a person uses it, who happens to be a parent, and their children hear? Do they then think it is acceptable also and then may use it on others in a derogatory manner, especially if that parent hasn't purposely explained to the child the background of the word?

It's a person choice to do what they will, but I think it can be irresponsible when one doesn't think about the wider ramifications it can have on others. But that could also apply to recycling and a number of other things some people don't choose to do. They think of their convenience, not what it means to others and the world.

Steven wrote: "As you indicated,Red, my comments were general, not personal. I misunderstood the opening statement in your post, but you explained this very well in another post. I think it's great that you initi..."

That was a professional teaser for the article to prompt action. That's why I've gone back and posted the article here, because it seems people aren't following the link to read it, just reacting to an intro. Or the further comments on the thread..

The Other “F” Word
18
Mar 2011


The Other “F” Word

Would you want someone to call you a fag? Your son, your mate?

“Bum a fag”, means an entirely different thing in the UK than elsewhere, to be sure, because there the term “fag” is slang for cigarette. But the most commonly known reference for the word, especially in the USA, is used to derogatorily refer to a homosexual male. It is a shortened version of “faggot”, used in the same type of reference.

For many people, it is a term of derision, an attempt to demean and embarrass the individual. In schools, if the term is used, it is considered a form of bullying and the user would be subject to a penalty. If someone heard it being used, most people, gay or heterosexual or anywhere in between, might question the mentality of the person using it as a description. At the very least, I would say, many people would see it as inappropriate and unnecessary.

So why then are some gays using it to refer to themselves? I’ve heard the explanations:

“We’re taking the word back!” or “We’re showing that it doesn’t affect us!”

I’ve heard the defensive responses: “Why should it bother you?” and “We’re just playing!”

The majority of the time it was a certain age group of persons, approximately 16-26 or so. By observation, I found those younger in age are still very upset by the term, even if it was applied in jest or a kind of commiseration, because it has negative connotations. My son and others like him do not like or want to be called fag even by a friend.

There was no particular outcry from those older than that core group first mentioned, those in the 30+ category, but rather, the usage of the term was viewed as the speaker having a lack of true comprehension of what it signifies to so many others. A kind of short-sightedness that lives only for what one thinks is fun and affectionate, and in some cases, to seem “cool” or “trendy” by those who also speak thusly.

This personifies the gay, over the top gay personality, and faggot could refer to that type of gay as a way to define them and separate them from the average gay community members --The Etymology of Faggot Analysis

In either case, they are disregarding the fact that many people find it highly offensive. So it can also be viewed as a kind of rebellion. Just a side note, the term “gay”, while generally seen by both homo and heterosexuals as an acceptable term for homosexual, has somewhat evolved into a derisive term to reference almost any and everything the user believes is stupid or unworthy. So certainly, words and their meaning can change over time.

The term “fag” doesn’t bother me personally, but I don’t play that way or think it’s funny. It makes me question why the words are still being used even if solely among gay friends or acquaintances. In the same way, I would question why some black people or African Americans use the “n” word to refer to each other, yet if someone else calls them that, a serious problem can develop. If someone called a gay man a “fag” maliciously, it would equally be unacceptable, so why do some think it’s just a silly lark to use it to refer to other gays?

What is the etymology?

Originally “faggots or faggot,” meant a bundle of sticks that naturally would be used for fire making purposes, though some consider this arguable. Later the term was applied to homosexuals, who without trial or confession, were thrown alive on fires used to burn witches. They were used to keep it burning as it was sinking lower, so to speak, while more witches could be found, though hanging was the most common punishment for homosexuals. This was in England, and of course came to America. The word itself came from the Greek word for bundle.

I speak English, and rarely do I use slang because there are enough “regular” words to describe what I need. It’s purposeless for me, and by majority, many slang words seem negative in connotation. That’s arguable too, but since we’re on the subject of homosexuals and homosexuality, even terms like “fag hag” I find unnecessary, the casual usage of terms like “gang bang”. They are negative ideas projected onto gay sexuality.

Unless specifically asked, I wouldn’t make any comment about any of these words or similar ones, but the psychology behind why people use them and think it’s acceptable does interest me. That they broadly use them in a rather homo-ignorant way and are surprised if someone objects or disagrees with their speech, doesn’t. I do think it is telling, however.

Deliberately using words known to be offensive, inflammatory and negative could be considered yet another example of a type of egocentrism, which believes others should abide by or accept one’s own standards no matter what. Basically it’s, “I think it should be done, so you should do it.” Why would you use words other people find offensive? Because you want to.

To me this is a matter of controversy that need have no controversy. It’s simple.

“Do unto others as you would have done unto thee?”

That may seem like a good idea, but I don’t agree with it either.

Or,

“Do unto another as they wish to be done to?”

This is what I believe in.

You may not think twice to call someone a fag while playing with your friends. It may not bother you if someone is called a fag in your presence, whether it’s in jest or not, but some people don’t like it. Many people don’t like it and you know it, as well as why they don’t, so why would you use the word around them? If one went by the “first Golden rule”, it would justify calling someone a fag because you think it’s okay, because you wouldn’t mind if someone did it to you. Applying the second would keep you from calling someone a fag, even a friend and in jest, because they don’t like it. A very important difference.

When I received an invitation from a certain gay website whose slogan states in bold, “Yes, we do use the word fag!” I almost laughed. Not because of their set-up or possibly good-natured irreverence but rather the mentality behind it. It suggests they believe others, anyone gay, should accept and agree with their statement just because of their sexuality. I may be gay but it doesn’t mean I agree with or accept all other gays, personally, academically or every gay organization, cause, or entertainment preferences, just like I don’t accept the application of the word “fag” or “faggot”.



References:

“The etymology of "faggot" within -- it's ugly”

http://www.viewaskew.com/newboard/mes...

“Etymology of Hate”

http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~pchang/etym...

"The Roots of Violence: Converging Psychoanalytic Explanatory Models for Power Struggles and Violence in Schools" by Stuart Twemlow, M.D.

http://www.dspp.com/papers/twemlow.htm

Red wrote: "That being said, certainly among peers or one's personal friends or groups, certain terms might be used and it isn't an issue really, but one still asks the questions...if it does bother one at any time, why is it allowed at any time? It's no a matter of getting one's feelings hurt or anything like that. We just don't consider it acceptable to make anyone else feel badly at anytime just because we want to say or do a certain thing.
..."

i understand where you're coming from on this. but in many ways, it is a perfect world scenario, if that makes sense. i know that in a perfect world, perhaps rough banter with demeaning language wouldn't ever come into play. but i don't live in that perfect world and i wouldn't want to enforce a code of appropriate and inappropriate language onto the people in my life. i don't mind the imperfection, as aggravating as it may be or as insulting as our banter may be when hanging out together. this kind of sarcastic, aggressive back-and-forth is certainly uncomfortable to many, and i respect that, but for me and my peers - this is often how we communicate casually. in many ways, the rough banter is a form of affection. but of course all this rough banter exists within the context of friendships that have lasted for a very long time and in which we have also provided much genuine emotional support to each other over the years (not to mention practical and at times financial support). as well as the context of our shared progressivism (despite the salty language).

so in short, when my friends use insulting language towards or around me, i don't "feel badly at anytime" (to use your phrase)...much as i expect them to not genuinely feel badly when i engage in the same. and if lines are crossed (rarely, but it has happened, on both ends), then heartfelt apologies are rendered.

mark wrote: "Red wrote: "i understand where you're coming from on this. but in many ways, it is a perfect world scenario, if that makes sense. i know that in a perfect world, perhaps rough banter with demeaning language wouldn't ever come into play. but i don't live in that perfect world and i wouldn't want to enforce a code of appropriate and inappropriate language onto the people in my life. ."

I don't live in a perfect world either. And no, it is not a perfect world scenario is any way. It's convenient perhaps to think of it that way, because then there is no reason to change and every reason to dismiss one's own actions. It is reality that is possible when people try to make it possible and not just look out for their own interests. We are all imperfect, but w can try to make the world better for everyone one day at a time. If everyone did that, how much better the world would be, klar?

"or when they use gay voice, ugh. it doesn't make me particularly joyous either" Is that a positive emotion? No, it's not. My interpretation of what you said was a negative emotion, but maybe you meant something else.

And you don't have to explain it me, I've lived in American society fully, German and a few others,and have worked a variety of jobs. As a former police officer in the USA, that kind of language and behavior was a given. You don't have to detail it to me as if I have no concept of what you're referring to, because I do. What you do is what you do, and being our German way of blunt, it doesn't actually matter to me, but the points I made are valid still.

How you behave and what you allow are your choices. I just wonder why are you trying to excuse it or explain it, as if to make it alright somehow? "It is as it is," as we say here.

You don't have to detail it to me as if I have no concept of what you're referring to...How you behave and what you allow are your choices. I just wonder why are you trying to excuse it or explain it, as if to make it alright somehow? "It is as it is," as we say here.

there was really no call for the rudeness or condescension, Red. not only does that not help your argument, it makes having a discussion with you to be rather tedious. at no point did i say your own points were not valid, so there is no need to be defensive either. ugh.

i am simply detailing my own situation, one that contrasts with your own vision of what is and is not appropriate. i am not saying you are wrong and i am right; i am simply describing relationships that don't fall under your parameters. i'm sorry you don't appreciate "the detail", but i thought this was a discussion. if you just want to have a monologue, then fine, say that and don't bother responding otherwise. but if you are here to be rude to a person who is being completely open and honest with you about his life - the ups and the downs - then you can just go to hell. seriously, do people not have these kinds of conversations in germany without devolving into rudeness? fuck off Red.

I find the "F" word is very degrading and I have heard it more than a dozen times come from my own brother's lips. I tell him no gay man or no lesbian woman or even some straight men and woman I know would like hearing that word come from his mouth. I not only find the "F" word degrading debasing but I am ashamed that my brother has such a strong dislike towards gay men and women. He doesn't much like the fact that I am bisexual either so it hurts. Because each time he uses that word I want to curl up and ball my eyes out.

But I don't I tell him like it is. I tell him that word is not to be used towards anyone because it degrades and debases a person deeply. He doesn't seem to care and that hurts even more.

Kat wrote: "I find the "F" word is very degrading and I have heard it more than a dozen times come from my own brother's lips. I tell him no gay man or no lesbian woman or even some straight men and woman I kn..."

That's worse than unfortunate, Kat, when anyone thinks they have a right to use such words just because they feel like it, think it's humorous or playful, or that it's okay. When it's a family member, even more so.

I sincerely hope your brother, like others, will come to appreciate that any word considered debasing and degrading to others, should be deeply questioned as to usage and stop doing so.

I surely hope he'll learn but, he just turned 18 and I don't really understand his deep cutting words sometimes. I can't bring my friends over that are gay or lesbian because he would flip out on them. I don't want or wish any harm coming to my friends at all. So until I'm out on my own I don't have many friends over that are GLBT's and I don't like having it that way either.

Kat wrote: "I surely hope he'll learn but, he just turned 18 and I don't really understand his deep cutting words sometimes. I can't bring my friends over that are gay or lesbian because he would flip out on t..."

Hopefully one day it may change. I think perhaps it will as more life experiences are gained and he can look at his actions and behaviors from other people's perspectives.

I was just finishing an essay today in Psychology on adulthood, and I found it interesting (as usual :.-) I guess that's why I'm pursuing a degree in it) that as young adults especially continue to grow and mature and see their actions from views other than parents, family members or even peers, it can influence their evolution. If they are around people that reinforce their speech, attitudes and behavior, they usually continue and even come to rationalize it into middle adulthood. If the people they are around, that they want to continue to be around won't tolerate it, they change or they leave.

It is just me, and I don't know your situation nor am I attempting to tell you what to do, but for one's own self-esteem and well-being and even the person who is behaving that way, setting forth clear boundaries of what is acceptable would have to be established. Letting them really know the seriousness of their actions and what will not be tolerate can help them think deeper. In the beginning it might not show results, but maybe in the long run.

~Nods~ Well I have started setting up my own boundaries with him as to what I will listen to from him and what I won't and again I know I won't see results at first but hoping I do in the long run.

I'm trying at least to show him I am never going to tolerate anything bad he says about me or the LGBT's community.

Words are tools. It's what we do with them; How we use them that counts.

And as to calling Fag the "other F word"... there are lots of great F words. feckless, fulsome, fungible, friable, finagle & flummery not to mention fancy furbelows