Victorians! discussion

For discussing chatpers 16-25 in The Count of Monte Cristo, if you have not completed these chapters be aware there may be spoilers here.

Abbe Faria has turned out to be quite an interesting character, and there is indeed so much more to him than what most people think. While he is older than Dantes, and has been in prisoner longer, I think it is still interesting to compare just what Faria has accomplished during his time in prison, and the unbelievable things he was able to achieve, while Dantes on the other hand had spent three years lost within a state of utter hopelessness and despair, verging back and forth between attempts to kill himself.

When Dantes relates his story of what happened to him the Abbe Faria tells him that "unless an evil thought is born in a twisted mind, human nature is repelled by crime. However, civilization has given us needs, vices, artificial appetites which sometimes cause us to repress our good instincts and lead us to wrongdoing."

Which it is indicated in my notes that Faria was a follower of Rousseau who believed that humans are born free and virtuous and it is society which corrupts them.

While Villefort I think can be seen as fitting into this model for we do see within him an initial desire to goodness, and at first he did treat Dante with leniency and kindness, but upon the discovery of the piece of information, the letter to his father which he feared may do him harm, his goodness was corrupted by his ambition which can be seen as supported by society in his feeling his need for material success in the world.

Yet Dangler's does not appear to have any good instincts within him at all, nor does he appear to feel any sense of guilt, or remorse for what he has done.

In considering the characters and the story thus far, do you think that Dumas confirms and agrees with Faria/Rousseau's ideas about the natural inherent goodness of man?

Is Dante's young age at the start of this novel significant in supporting this idea? Does Dantes goodness, and his own inability to conceive of the fact that anyone else may in fact actually dislike him, or hate him so much as to plot against him be due not just purely to naivety of his youth but the fact that he himself is still in the state of "natural goodness"

When speaking of Villifort Faria states that he is too young to be corrupt and yet old enough to be ambitious"

So in Dantes youth is he like Adam before the fall, and with the knowledge that Faria's has imparted to him, opening Dantes eyes to the truth, is that his first bite of temptation, the first thought of vengeance which has now begun to rise with him, is he now on the path to becoming man corrupted in spite of his own inherent goodness?

I have not yet completed this section, but I did find the distinction between Abbe and Dantes that you have described, Silver. Abbé is a man who knows how to make the best out of the worst case scenario. Perhaps age and being a priest has been factors in his ability to contend with his lot. It is not that he is content to feel sorry for himself but is resolute in his desire to escape even to the point of throwing himself out of an opening that for all he knows might be a one hundred foot drop.

Dantes, on the other hand is young and desperation often plays into his moods and
actions. He has not acquired the spirit of everything comes to those who wait. How much
like a youth he is, as it always seems one spends their youth never finding serenity. Abbé
seems to have found serenity within himself and determination fills his being. Dantes is
floundering until he meet Abbe who put a direction to his life.

The Abbe also has a stronger connection/affirmation in God than Dantes does which may help in giving him some source of comfort and help drive him, in the belief that he is acting according to God's will and that his fate is in the hands of God which may make him feel his despair less if he does resign himself into the hands of God. It may also be because of his faith that he does not feel the isolation of his situation as severally as Dantes does.

Dantes, perhaps in part because of his youth does not have that same strength in faith but his own feelings in God fluctuate between finding moments in hope to cursing God because of his fate as well in this way, though Dantes resigns himself to his despair, in the fact that he never even considers the possibility of escape he does not "accept" his situation in the same way that the Abbe does.

And one of the biggest sources of Dantes misery is his lack of companionship. So the Abbe is able to provide for Dantes the guidance and the comfort that he is lacking and that he cannot find within himself.

Silver wrote: "The Abbe also has a stronger connection/affirmation in God than Dantes does which may help in giving him some source of comfort and help drive him, in the belief that he is acting according to God'..."

Abbe Faria is one of my favorite characters. He is such a positive figure in the midst of Dante’s darkness. He is Dantes’ mentor, friend and spiritual father. During their relationship, Abbe helps Dantes transition from being a naïve youth to a mature, educated young man. I think with regards to faith and companionship, age plays a role. As you have stated for Dantes, without companionship he is miserable. But for Abbe, his solitude allows him to be creative and make objects (like a needle, paper & ink and a knife), plan and execute escape routes.

I, too, love Abbe Faria's take on life. I think age does play a part here. If you remember your 20's, everything is so serious. But as you age, you're able to see what is something serious and what is small stuff. I also believe that Abbe Faria's knowledge of reading that he has memorized helps him too. Dante hasn't been exposed to that as he is more of a man of action than a man of study. Dante has only been exposed to life in his village and life on the sea. Faria has seen things from other viewpoints via his reading.

I think taking risks get easier as you age too. You are less worried about the 100 ft drop and more hopeful of the possible outcome (freedom).

I do think Dantes' age plays a part in his "goodness" and lack of corruption from the world. I think one's upbringing, circumstances, and friends will determine how long this innocence lasts.

I was amazed at everything Abbe Faria was able to accomplish compared to Dantes; however, I think it is a bit of an unfair comparison given Faria's vast knowledge.

I was happy Dantes and Faria established a relationship, especially since we as readers know that Dantes' father passed away. I think this was a lifesaver for both men, and it will be something that Dantes can favorably look back upon because he turned out a better man because of Faria's influence and teaching.

I finally made it here! lol I am enjoying this book, but am not finding as much reading time as I would like to.

I didn't realize that Faria was probably a follower of Rousseau, but that makes sense to me now that I read that. It does seem to also be supported by Dumas, since Dantes is so young, and all the things that happened to him were caused by a force other than himself, and now his outlook on life is changed.

I also think it strange that Faria's beliefs are consistent with Rousseau's teachings, but he also seems to be a firm follower of God. Being a Christian myself and having studied a little about Rousseau's teachings in school, it seems odd that the 2 would go together since they are at odds. It is interesting to see different views, and maybe what Dumas is saying was very much believed in his day/culture?

One other thing I noticed that is so different from modern day stories about action and revenge is what Faria said to Dantes when Dantes told him his plan. Dantes said they could escape by killing a guard, but Faria was quick to dispel this idea since they would have to murder an innocent man. I don't see that very often in modern novels. Everything today is pushing humanism and self preservation at ANY cost (Atonement comes to mind). In modern novels/movies it bothers me when people take "the end justifies the means" philosophy and do whatever they want to with it, including killing. We don't have any clear-cut good guy vs. bad guy today, everyone is mixed up somewhere in between. Not that I don't like a hero with a flaw, I just like to see his flaw recognized for what it is, and how he responds to it. It is nice to see a true hero in Faria, rather than an anti-hero.

Rachel wrote: "I finally made it here! lol I am enjoying this book, but am not finding as much reading time as I would like to.

I didn't realize that Faria was probably a follower of Rousseau, but that makes se..."

I have not really thought of that, but that is an interesting observation. While the plot line of vengeance, and the idea of the sympathetic prisoner who was wrongfully imprisoned, and framed for the greed and corruption of others is something that is still seen very often today but it is interesting to contrast the different approach between than and now.

Dumas I think really wants to get the reader to philosophically contemplate the question of revenge, and he himself does not whole heartededly condone or condemn Dantes and his plans of revenge but I think he does wish for the reader to come to their own conclusion on the character of Dantes and the nature of revenge.

Dumas also draws upon the idea of justice and the question of God and the question of actually righting the wrongs more so than is seen today in which the quest for vengeance does become more just about the personal self-fulfillment of the individual and the simply wanting to harm those who have harmed him.

But Dumas does make it about something much more than that.

Yes, I think he does want us to really consider revenge. I love it when authors don't wholeheartedly condone or condemn what their character's are doing. It really makes the reader stop and think, and when finished with the book, the reader really enjoys it since he felt like he had a lot in common with the characters.

Right now, I feel like I want Dantes to just escape out of there, but then again, I wouldn't want him to kill anyone to get out of there. I feel as torn as he does. I think Faria is one of those people who come into our lives and stop us from making bad choices, and whose impact on us is seen for the rest of our lives. As I right this, I think of the song "For Good" from "Wicked", lol.