Rothfussians discussion

I think we have all noticed how many characters in the books have actions which echo other character's actions previously mentioned. We have also added them as a curiosity when talking about the characters themselves.

I'd like to deal with theme recurrence in this thread.

Here's one;

Tehlu chased Encanis for 7 days and Encanis burned 6 cities as he when.

Lanre burned 7 cities down, then burned Myr Tariniel down.

Kvothe burned down Trebon. Granted not as many as the others, but a town nonetheless.

This may not mean a lot but once other coincidences are posted a trend may occur...

Those are patterns, but not themes, my 11th grade english would tell me. Not that I care: Here's a another pattern: Iax, Jax, and Haliax. One theme would the ever-moving, elusive moon. Lyre, being irretrievable. Auri and Denna, always running away.

Due to affinty and lack thereof for iron, would Tehlu be on the human side, while Encanis and Lanre be on the Fae?

Actually Lanre burned "only" six cities down, other than Myr Tariniel

If you look closely Kvothe's got a resemblance to every mythic person. He plays music like Illien, does some Taborlin-esque things , is chasing something he can't have (Denna, or his revenge) like Iax. And becomes more and more like Lanre.

And of course there are some parallels with Sir Savien, the Amyr with the tragic love story, about whom Kvothe sang to get his pipes...Funny, the only other romances that match it seem to be of fae tales.

I made a great long post about the similarities between Iax, Lanre, and Kvothe. I should add those things here.


Also, Kvothe and Taborlin have a great many similarities.

I think I read that post. Good stuff. You should link to it, or at least reveal its location if you're not going to repeat some of the stuff here.

On topic-sih: When Kvothe hears stories about how he rescued the two girls from the bandits, a version had him rescue 7 sisters...I think all the instances of '7' might just examples of stories swirling together over time, and how all those stories are doomed. The only things that truly lasts are songs and names.

I always thought that Encanis was the church's version of Lanre. The similarities between the stories do indicate that. Also in Trapis' story he mentions that Encanis is wrapped in shadow, just like Haliax.
Jax and Iax are versions of the same person too. Both stole the moon. Felurian talks about the great shapers who made the Faen realm, just like Jax makes the folding house which (pg 593) "In one room you could look out the window at the springtime flowers,while across the hall the windows were filmed with winter's frost. It could be time for breakfast in the ballroom, while twilight filled a nearby bedroom." Just like season and time of day is skewed in the Fae.
These stories are so old that they get warped by time politics or religion and so are different stories of the same events.

Another way to look at the similarities: The similarity is a 'crown' that's passed on from person to person, to maintain balance in the world, even though the people are mortal. So Haliax and Encanis may not be the same physical person, though they inherited the same roles. And I suspect something similar for the person who embodies the Moon.

At the start of the first book when fighting the scrael, Kvothe tells agrees with Chronicler that there is no such thing as demons (for the most part).
The stories just seem to similar to be about different people. Just different takes on the same events.

I was just rereading (listening actually) to the two stories told so closely to each other about Encanis and then Lanre/Haliax. I think it is the same story, just refashioned over time. The question I have is why are the priests so bothered by the Lanre version of the story? Why is it heresy? My guess is that, assuming that the Lanre/Haliax version is the older version and its been revised into the Encanis story, they don't like any mention of anything prior to their religion? Like Christianity once behaved toward the idea that Christmas is neatly stuck on top of an older holiday. Any other thoughts? Is there a Tehlu (not sure if I'm spelling that right at the moment) in the Lanre story?

And, is the Iax that Felurian tells the story about the same one as the Selitos mentions as someone who he thinks is more powerful than Lanre was?

I don't think everything matches up, but I think if it a retelling of the same story, there should be several connections.

At this moment, I don't remember how or if Taborlin is connected to the Lanre story.

Tarbolin doesn't appear in the Lanre story. Tehlu does though. Aleph makes Tehlu (among others) into powerful beings resembling angels. I think its considered heresy because Skarpi is saying that Tehlu isnt a god and didnt create the world.

Can anyone point out the page or quote the text from Felurian saying the Iax is the one who built the Fae? I for the life of me cannot find in the book where it says that anywhere, but a lot of people have been saying it. Just wondering, I've only been skimming through that part, but I cant see that she ever named the person who built the fae.

Have people been saying that? I thought she just talked about the Creation War, where some shapers were getting carried away with their power and had to be contained by their own kind. They were banished from the real world, in effect, and now reside in an artificial realm which they created, which was called Fae.

The conflict after that had to do with the Moon, and why it spends some time in the real world, and the rest of the time in Fae.... (edit: Felurian laments this, but I don't remember her shedding light on why the moon must divide its time)

Oh! Ah hah. See, Jax (as told by H??? Warrior Lady around a camp fire) makes the moon divide her time between the real world, and his weird, nonsensical house. The house is believed to be the Fae Realm, because of its internal weirdness that matches Kvothe's experiences in Fae.

So that's my guess why people might link Jax/Iax/Haliax to the Fae Realm. But did Jax build the unfolding-House / Fae Realm? Kind of, but I believe he got the keys to that kingdom from a tinker. So I personally wouldn't think any of the 3 -ax guys were shapers, nor that they had anything to do with the creation of Fae--With the waystones perhaps, but that's a different outlandish theory.

Hope (1) I'm accurate, and (2) that helps.

It does help. I found also where people are getting the info that Iax stole the moon. Apperantly Bast says this when he talking of the cthaeh.

Felurian never names any names. So yes, I think what you have is accurate.

Have to quote a fairly long passage from WMF, since it's pretty critical and does confirm that Iax/Jax was in part responsible for creation of Fae.

She laughed at my tone. “no. the faen realm.” she waved widely. “wrought according to their will. the greatest of them sewed it from whole cloth. a place where they could do as they desired. and at the end of all their work, each shaper wrought a star to fill their new and empty sky.”
Felurian smiled at me. “then there were two worlds. two skies. two sets of stars.” She held up the smooth stone. “but still one moon. and it all round and cozy in the mortal sky.”
Her smile faded. “but one shaper was greater than the rest. for him the making of a star was not enough. he stretched his will across the world and pulled her from her home.”
Lifting the smooth stone to the sky, Felurian carefully closed one eye. She tilted her head as if trying to fit the curve of the stone into the empty arms of the crescent moon above us. “that was the breaking point. the old knowers realized no talk would ever stop the shapers.” Her hand dropped back into the water. “he stole the moon and with it came the war.”
“Who was it?” I asked.
Her mouth curved into a tiny smile. She hooted: “who? who?”
“Was he of the faen courts?” I prompted gently.
Felurian shook her head, amused. “no. as I said, this was before the fae. the first and greatest of the shapers.”
“What was his name?” She shook her head.
“no calling of names here. I will not speak of that one, though he is shut beyond the doors of stone.”

(Emphasis mine, obv.)

I recently read NOTW & am currently 65% into WMF, and this question keeps nagging at me: how reliable is Kvothe as a narrator?

I recently had to do a close study of Homer's Odyssey, and the famous translator, Richard Lattimore, claims that there are five scenes that occur after Odysseus's return to Ithaka in which he openly lies in order to protect himself. He even admits to lying. This then makes one question the validity of the story of his journey that he told to the Phaikians.

As I read the first two Kingkiller books, I keep wondering how much of what Kvothe is telling the Chonicler is actually true. Kvothe is clearly living a lie at the Waystone Inn, and there are a couple of scenes in which he lies to protect himself, improve his situation, or solidify his reputation, so he is not entirely credible. So how much can we trust his story?

Of course, I have yet to finish WMF, and we won't know everything until the third book comes out, but I am very curious to see if Rothfuss pulls back the curtain on Kvothe only to reveal that he might not be the "wizard" that people think that he is.

Seen as how well-read Rothfuss is and the fact that he has been a professor of English, I am quite certain that he's read the Odyssey, maybe even Richard Lattimore's translation and introduction. It is plausible to think that he is familiar with such deception. Is he just toying with us? Just a thought...

Kvothe is proven to be an unreliable narrator.

A perfect example is when he starts to be affected by the plum bob. (before he knows what has happened)

just a couple scenes before he is worried about money and doesnt want to buy any decent food and just eats at Ankers.

After he meets the woman crying, he goes outside, he smells the nuts, he buys some, he's talking and having a decent time. He doesnt realize he's poisoned until later - and you, as the reader, dont know either. Until Sim, explains whats happening.
(thats just one simple example)

Anytime you read from first person POV you should always take into account that the POV character isnt always accurate. Especially when other characters are involved. What the POV says about other characters are actually opinions of those characters, not necessarily facts.

Think of how Kvothe views Denna vs how everyone else views her.

Amber wrote: "Kvothe is proven to be an unreliable narrator.

A perfect example is when he starts to be affected by the plum bob. (before he knows what has happened)

just a couple scenes before he is worried a..."

Well, the story is told in first person perspective, so it will always be tainted. But I think it's debatable whether or not he's lying to us. I think it's more likely he may have passed along his misperceptions about certain things (which could have just as large of implications as a lie).

Yes - I agree with Eric - should have made that clearer.

Not that Kvothe is intentionally telling lies in his frame story - he tends to specify when his character is acting or lieing. More that just because Kvothe believes something to be a certain way doesnt necessarily mean thats correct.


Like when Kvothe kills the bandits for the Maer - in Kvothe's eyes he's doing the Maer a favor. And if you just read over that section, you dont think much about Kvothe killing all those people, we just think of it as a quest. But if you think of the reprucussions of the action...well, it doesnt look as good. Kvothe never asks any real questions, he looks for the bandits for days and days and isnt even attacked, he never tries to confront any of them, or talk to them...

I mean - sounds like a pretty similar situation to how Kvothe ended up an orphan if you ask me...

Red Haired Chandrian...In my opinion...he has the aspects. Kvothe isnt just a good a character. He's a grey character, which IMO is what makes him so interesting.