The Sword and Laser discussion

One thing that totally threw me while reading this book was the first person narrative sections being told by the satellite in the first quarter of the book. Not only did the narrative shift throw me off since it wasn't fully explained when we changed from Siri to this AI, but it really didn't seem to go anywhere except for letting us know about the Burns Caufield. Was there something that I missed here?

The prologue (which I usually find a pretty crummy way to start a book) establishes a first person narrator, while Part I begins "Imagine you are Siri Keeton:" and continues in this POV shifted kinda way for a few pages. I've only read through Part I so far but I'd hoped he would continue this trend. Otherwise it is a little jarring.

Yeah, the POV changes are screwing me up as well. I'm having a hard time figuring out who the characters are at the moment. About 12% in on the kindle version.

Phew. I thought I was just unconcentrated or had some trouble with the whole architecture of the spaceship and keeping the characters apart, but I see now that at least I'm not the only one. I'm only 8% into the Kindle version and I guess the POV has shifted at least three or four times and it doesn't seem immediately obvious when it shifts. I hope it gets better throughout the book, but right now I'm a bit confused.

It's not like it's that hard getting into the book. My reading pace is average, I'd say, but I am never quite sure who is talking at any time and what their role is.

I just made the connection that two people whom I thought were totally different characters when reading initially were actually the same POV.

I don't mind first person POV books but if you're going to go first person you either need to stick with a single POV or make it super obvious when the POV shifts and who it's shifting to.

Jason G wrote: "Yeah, the POV changes are screwing me up as well. I'm having a hard time figuring out who the characters are at the moment. About 12% in on the kindle version."

It does get better further in as it is almost all from Siri, but there is a flashback or two that threw me for a curve. Especially when you get to the Bates flashback.

The POVs didn't throw me; I guess I've read too many books that do that type of thing to be thrown by it. Plus, the probe is the only happy character in the whole book.

Though it isn't stated, I took the personalization of the probe to mean that it was semi-organic. Given the way any mechanical modification is shown in the book as de-humanizing it seemed out of place in the book as a purely mechanical device. I'm sure I'm reading way too far into a short POV, but it works for me.

I was left wondering if Siri, the narrator of the book, was feeling a bit disjointed when he was telling the tale. Since we are to believe the entire book was his narration of the story maybe he was trying to liken himself to the probe?

The POV changes can be a bit off putting I have found as well.

I'm around 20% in. So far, it's been 100% Siri talking. When we hear about the probe's POV, it's Siri asking us to play make believe while he unfolds his imagined narrative of what might be going through the probe's mind throughout its experiences with the alien object.

It took a few short sessions with the book to really get a handle on the narrative style - it's very DIFFERENT from what I've been reading lately.

Open the pod bay doors, Hal.

I must admit I'm already done. I'm a fast reader and I try to stick to one book at a time (at least for fiction) so I kind of *have* to be done with it in order to start something new which speeds up reading a bit more. Plus, lovely weekend with plenty of reading time at the open window.

I got into the writing style about 25% into the book. Up to then it always felt like it was different POV and I couldn't figure out who was who. It really *is* all Siri, and I don't know why it's so confusing. Maybe it's going back and forth in time and the whole "imagine you're..." parts lure you off-track.

Yeah, once I got about 25% in or so, I got a handle on it. But I was totally confused for the first quarter as to who was who and when we were and what's going on...

The book strikes me as something of an experimental piece. Not typical of hard sci-fi.

I had finished the book before my post above, and I agree - the book is more dystopian than hard sci-fi.

Skip wrote: "Though it isn't stated, I took the personalization of the probe to mean that it was semi-organic."

I got the sense that the satellite wasn't organic, but putting us in its head gave it the appearance of being organic, meaning it only has a point of view because we're imagining it has one (as the author is asking us to do).

Matthew wrote: "It really didn't seem to go anywhere except for letting us know about the Burns Caufield"

I think maybe that was the only point. To me, it was a clever way of providing exposition while exploring this theme that seems to be emerging of AI vs. cognizance (and all that comes in between).

aldenoneil wrote: "I got the sense that the satellite wasn't organic, but putting us in its head gave it the appearance of being organic, meaning it only has a point of view because we're imagining it has one (as the author is asking us to do)."

I'd accept that, but the author is having Siri ask us to imagine we are the probe, and I don't see Siri being that happy about anything. I didn't want to make a big deal about it, but after reading the whole book it is a little jarring.

I suppose that the author could be making the point that happiness is only possible for the simplest of sentient creatures. If so, .... that's cold.

Skip wrote: "aldenoneil wrote: "Making the point that happiness is only possible for the simplest of sentient creatures."

Ha. In that case, maybe Siri feels that way.

I haven't read far past that point, but I think the satellite POV is an important point of discussion; it should be a big deal. Watts does this POV flip again to us when putting us in the "heads" of the first and second waves, and so he's already exploring that line between sentience and AI. Maybe because Siri's "half-in, half-out" emotionally, he imagines going all the way to AI would be preferable. By the way, I didn't get the sense the satellite was happy, but rather wasn't unhappy. It just was.

The more I read about the post-human tech, the more I think the POV switching is largely to explore the idea of human minds and machine minds melding.

Yeah, there are several times the POV shifts, and each time it seems that it's Siri saying, "now imagine that you're X..." It does seem tied to his whole synthesist method of observing and analyzing others' points of views. He says several times that his own dealings with humans is similar to the Chinese Room scenario -- that he's faking feelings/interactions by following a large set of observed rules. There's things he tells us at other times that suggest that "I am a Chinese Room myself" is an overstatement, but the point of the space probe-identification may be that the exercise of identifying with them and imagining their motivations (even though they're machines) is what he also does with humans, too, just on a much more complex level. Ie, fellow humans are in a way as abstract to him as machines?

Jlawrence wrote: "I am a Chinese Room myself"

On a related note, I just found my Halloween costume.

I wondered if the POV of the first wave and second wave was a bit of foreshadowing.

(view spoiler)[
We learn in the end that The Captain wasn't the quiet, servile ship that we might have assumed. Siri lends an empathetic voice to the first and second wave, and from there we could make the leap to understanding that perhaps The Captain is participating more than what appears.
(hide spoiler)]