The History Book Club discussion

This is a thread to discuss the book as a whole and/or anybody's final thoughts about the book itself.

Colleen McCullough

Thank you Bryan.

This was a great book. I believe that the First Man in Rome was slightly better; but I thoroughly enjoyed reading more about Sulla and all of his diabolical wickedness. He is a true villain.

I devoured this book early on. And love the series.

Colleen McCullough

Also, a special thank you to Vicki for helping to lead us through the second book in this series.

Good job.

I agree with you Bentley, the first book was slightly better. Maybe it was the fact everything was new; I liked the relationship between Sulla and Marius in the first one that fell apart in the second.

Yet overall, it is a great series. I wonder if McCullough did all the research at once and then sat down to write the books.

Bentley wrote: "Also, a special thank you to Vicki for helping to lead us through the second book in this series.

Good job."

Absolutely, thanks so much Vicki for helping us out. I hope you had a good time with it.

I am not sure; but I think she might have. I think there was an interview with her where she discussed this; but I will have to put my hands on it....I might have posted it earlier when we did the first book in the series.

I was sorry to see the decline in the relationship between Marius and Sulla but Marius I believe was declining in terms of his mental health, etc and probably his strokes had a lot to do with what happened to him in this regard; and I give him a lot of credit for being as great as he was for so long. I cut him a lot of slack due to the above; but could not find any amount of sympathy for Sulla.

Yeah, I see Marius in a more positive light than Sulla. As you said, he was a true villain. Marius is this great general with big ambition, someone not uncommon in our world. You did feel bad for Marius in the end, hate to see his skills leaving him due to the strokes and older age.

Sulla is a great read, too, but in more of a true crime sort of way (lol).

Yes, I loved Sulla for that too (a thriller sort of serial killer)...what you see is not what you get behind the scenes. Although many knew what he was up to but turned a blind eye.

This book seems to me the story of one tragedy after another. Marcus Livius Drusus is murdered over wanting to make Roman citizens out of Italians, there's a war between Rome and the Italians over the issue, with probably thousands killed on both sides, followed by Sulla's troops occupying Rome, followed by the massacre by Marius' followers. And in the end, the Italians were granted citizenship anyway. What a horrid waste.

But it does leave you wanting to read more, to find out what happens next. The characters are absolutely fascinating.

Yes, it is beginning to sound an awful lot like our wars and the wastes that have occurred.

It just seems like one bad decision and tragedy led the Romans to another and another.

I love the characters - all of them - good and bad. And I agree with you Vicky...I hope you will consider leading the next one.

I know for a fact that Bryan and I are hooked (smile).

Another thing I enjoy is her writing; this book like the first is long, but it never feels that way. That is a hallmark of good writing.

Bryan, you are so right....you are reading a missive but it feels and reads like you are there enjoying a scene unfolding before your eyes. That is talent.

I was assuming we wouldn't be doing the next in the series, , because there's only the three of us here now, but if you want, I can do it. Doing the summaries is good mental exercise ;-).

I know Garret is reading them too. So yes, I think that would be great. Let me see when I can fit it best in the schedule and I will reach out to you.

This is a great series.

A great series and a long one. I first found out about it when I read a review of the first one, . I sent away for the first 4 in paperback and nearly fainted when I saw how big each one was. But I loved every page, especially the glossaries, which are like a course on ancient Rome.

It really is a course on ancient Rome and a very good one at that...despite being historical fiction.

they are a lot of fun

I knew you were out there Garret (smile).

I was a little surprised at first at the heftiness with each volume, too. But it is like a mini-class, and we keep moving along in time.

Very true; this sort of prepares you for your next Presidential read.

Bentley wrote: "Very true; this sort of prepares you for your next Presidential read."

lol, it will be a mini-class, no doubt!

I finished reading a week ago, and I read through the discussion posts to catch up to speed in anticipation of the upcoming read of . I have some ideas about the book I’d like to share / explore, since they pertain to the continuation of the story in - so, into the fray! I have to say that even though I see Marius as a great man (I loved his confrontation with Mithridates!), I don’t see Marius as being that much better than Sulla. He is a great leader and a good man, but I feel he has more in common with Sulla than even he would like to admit. Maruis may use methods that are more honorable and less cold blooded (except in the blood bath at the end when his actions are attributed to mental incapacity), and Sulla is certainly a snake in the grass, but their motives are the same – to act in their own interests in order to fulfill the prophecy of becoming (and remaining as) the greatest man in Rome’s history.

Marius begins acting in his own interest when he brings Lucius Decumius along to see Cinna after Young Marius killed Cato the Consul. Marius never utters the words, but there can be no mistaking why this man is chosen for the journey. At first I thought this a dishonorable act unexpected from Marius, but I also thought that perhaps Marius sees it as the only conclusion to his son’s justified actions – after all, killing Cato saves the army. After his stroke, he becomes more calculated. I think Sulla is right in suspecting Marius of showing up on purpose when Sulla is elected consul. Marius sees Sulla’s potential to take the greatest man title away from him. I think this suspicion is confirmed later by the actions Marius takes to try to take the command against Mithridates away from Sulla, and also in his act of appointing Young Caesar as flamen Dialis. Young Caesar has the same suspicion Sulla did – he sees that Marius is trying to prevent Young Caesar’s prophecy from outstripping his own.

I think both men have Rome’s best interests at heart – they want Rome to be great, but they want Rome to be great because of them. They never place their own ambitions above Rome’s well being, because without Rome they are nothing. However, their ambitions influence their choice of politics, as seen in both Sulla’s and Marius’s respective marches on Rome.

They, to varying degrees, use Rome to become great, and it’s hard to tell where true altruism ends and the selfish desire for greatness begins. Young Caesar seems to be on a path to continue this theme. All three have prophecies of greatness, and each wants to outstrip or inhibit the others’ achievements. It will also be interesting to see how far Sulla and Young Caesar will be willing to go to fulfill their respective prophecies. Neither of them will need the excuse of mental illness to carry out their actions! I think the theme of competition between Sulla and Young Caesar has already been hinted at nicely, and we’ve already seen evidence of it in : Young Caesar’s spying on Sulla and his mother, and trying to find a way out of being flamen Dialis: Young Caesar’s ability to read people is excellent, and he already has Sulla’s number. Just as was the competition between Marius and Sulla, I wonder if this theme will continue in with a competition between Sulla and Young Caesar.

On a final note, I can’t wait to read more about Sulla! What a great character! I can’t wait to see what he is going to pull next. And I stand in awe of Colleen McCullough's research, as well as how she uses it to develop her characters!

That's a great analysis of Marius and Sulla, Cheryl. Pretty much everyone important in this period of history is looking out for himself. We have had glimpses of Pompey's and Cicero's personalities in this book, and will get more later, and they also have this quality of wanting to be looked upon as great. There are so many fascinating characters in this period of Rome's history; you could hardly make up any that are more interesting.

Cheryl, you have done a good analysis and you have added the book covers and the author's link but the author's photo is missing:

Colleen McCullough