SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

It's been a while since I read this book. I read it back in 2009 and skimmed it again for the dicussion.

I noticed we've talked about women being the main theme but my question for you is do you feel the author could have swayed from the details of turning Eon into a boy? Keep in mind this book had a market target audience of 10-13 year olds.


Another issue I could see coming up was the issue of Lady Dela, while I understand that the world is becoming more and more tolerant of transgender/cross-dressing, do you feel the amount of detail was appropriate for a book with a target age of 10-13?

That said here's my opinion:

This book is marketed to 13 year olds. I honestly felt the amount of depth that was given in the book about the process, such as the teas used to surprised her cycle, the drugs used to appear more masculine and other issues might have been better left skimmed over.

I really feel without the details it would have been a great book that exposed YA readers to an Asian theme, however, with these potentially controversal issues I almost feel SO much of the book focused on it that the Asian flare, and zodac elements get overshadowed because of the controversy.

I also feel it could be one of those books that parents insist be banned because of these themes.

Wiki has a good definition

"Young adult novels have also been defined as texts written for the ages of twelve and up. Authors and readers of young adult novels often define the genre as "literature written for ages ranging from ten years up to the age of twenty"

Although YA literature shares the fundamental elements of character, plot, setting, theme, and style common to other genres of fiction, theme and style are often subordinated to the more tangible basic narrative elements such as plot, setting, and character, which appeal more readily to younger readers. The vast majority of YA stories portray an adolescent as the protagonist, rather than an adult or a child.

It is generally agreed that Young Adult Literature is literature written for adolescent readers, and in some cases published by adolescent writers. The subject matter and story lines are typically consistent with the age and experience of the main character, but beyond that YA stories span the entire spectrum of fiction genres. Themes in YA stories often focus on the challenges of youth, so much so that the entire age category is sometimes referred to as problem novels or coming of age novels. Writing styles of YA stories range widely, from the richness of literary style to the clarity and speed of the unobtrusive and even free verse."

I don't think there's a problem with any of the details you mentioned - I found them refreshing, actually, because this book didn't gloss them over. I actually think that young teens struggling with gender identity would get a lot out of this book. I particularly liked the fact that Goodman always referred to Lady Dela as a "she" - I think her scenes between her and Eon(a) would teach younger teens about respect for others' gender identity, if they're open to it.

Myself, I'd be more hesitant to recommend it because of the mind-rape towards the middle and the attempted physical rape at the end. :/ I know the very thought of sexual situations in teen lit gets people up in arms, but I've noticed that there seem to be more unhealthy situations/rape scenes than healthy ones in teen lit, and that honestly kind of disturbs me.

eta: Huh, I thought this was rec'd for ages 14+, but I checked out the Amazon description and it says "Grade 8 Up". I dunno, I can see myself reading this at 12-13 and loving it more than I did now, but I'd probably rec it for 14-15+ instead because of the reasons mentioned above.

I think I agree with Valerie. YA novels are supposed to tackle somewhat more mature material, in recognition of the fact that the target market is starting to have to deal with issues of maturation (physical and social). None of the things you mentioned seemed that bothersome. I would be concerned about the rape scenes for younger readers.

Also I have to disagree with the idea that this is a good way to introduce someone to an Asian theme, whatever that means. Why not, say, some of Lafcadio Hearn's translations of Chinese ghost stories, or something like Revolution Is Not a Dinner Party? Or you might manage to find a section or two of the Tale of Genji that isn't too sexually disturbing or otherwise overly concerned with Genji's amorous entanglements.

I also didn't have a problem with it being a YA novel. Part of that is because, as has been stated, YA isn't geared for "10-13", but, rather, through the ages of adolescence and into, well, young-adulthood. YA are not "kids books".

I didn't think that the way the book handled the character of Lady Deela was particularly controversial, certianly not in a way that would overshadow the other aspects of the book. Clearly it could, if you were so inclined to focus on that one character above all else, but I would think this would be an issue with the reader, and not with the book itself. I thought the book handled it very well, and it didn't become an "issues book" - i.e. it wasn't about Lady Deela being transgendered, she was simply a transgendered woman who is part of the story.

Anyway, I don't think an author should shy away from certain themes just because some parents might want them banned. Why should voices or ideas or people be silenced because other people don't like what they have to say? Why should authors self-censor because someone's worldview might be challenged or offended?

That said, I do think the age range of YA is rather broad and I tend to divide things for myself into "younger YA" and "older YA". I would probably consider this "older YA" and recommend it for 15+ - though this, of course, depends partially on the reader in question.

I should mention I am going purely off of the marketing materials I received from the publisher. An interesting fact....

When I got my first arc for this book back in 2009 I got the flier that said this was a book targeted towards 10-14....When I wrote my review for the book it was based off of that. Heck, it was even shelved in the "Children's" section of my library and several others. Keep that in mind you'll understand my point.

Jump 2 years later and they rereleased the book with a "new" target audience of 15+ and redid the cover to appeal to adults and older teen readers.

I think taking into fact that at first it was targeted towards the 10-12 range it wasn't appropriate. At least to me it wasn't. I thin it was soley the details given. The relaunch of the series to an older audience was more appropriate for the content.

I don't feel any author should be censored or told to keep back, I think in this case the first round was completely the wrong audience to target. Parents have issues with sex ed being taught in the classroom, are they really going to be okay with their 10 year old reading about transgender people?

I believe Alison did a great job of writing it and the details but it was a book that should have never been targeted to such a young audience with no mention of the details at all, and many parents don't read the books their children do read so I could see issues with that aspect.

And I do think it would be a great Asian flare book to introduce readers too. The books you mentioned might be great but how many people know about them? The fact that a major publisher was giving such a push to this Asian flare book was what I really appricated it.

I mentioned something along these lines in the spoiler thread, questioning whether the overall material made it a more "mature" book as well. I suspect it is partly a phenomenon of current YA that it covers wider ranges of travesty and in more graphic detail than some of the YA I remembered enjoying.

I actually enjoyed the Lady Dela plotline. I felt she was well written, and had enough time given to her issues to help readers understand what her experience might be like. However, fuzzy gender identity issues coupled with court politics, a dying king, a mind rape and a near-physical rape, manifesting evil (the black folio), witnessing the killing of a baby and his mother (that the main character had interacted with), and a social revolution seemed a case of too much chaos with too little thought. Good YA deals with only a few of those at a time, with depth and sensitivity. Thinking specifically of Dragonsong, Where the Red Fern Grows, The Blue Sword, Listening to Dragons, The Raven Ring, Ring of Endless Light, etc., all books I loved as a teen. Even Harry Potter took at 7 books to deal with half those issues.

Which is why I wondered if my age was showing--that excessiveness seems to be the case for movies now as well--it's not just one final car chase at the end, it's multiple instances of cycle/train/bus/car chase.

Cindy wrote: And I do think it would be a great Asian flare book to introduce readers too. The books you mentioned might be great but how many people know about them?

Something about your premise bugs me, but I may be misunderstanding you. If so, I hope you'll set me straight.

Why do people need to be introduced to books with an Asian flair? If it's to remind them or introduce the idea (if necessary) that people who aren't (for example) white Americans can be heroes, then why start here?

As far as I can tell, Goodman took a few East Asian cultural concepts and a generous helping of imagination and used them to create something that doesn't particularly have much to do with the people of East Asian descent who live on this planet.

I don't mean to be critical of the author when I say that. I'm just trying to get across that I don't see much relevance to Asian-ness as Asians experience it. I mean, there are recognizably Asian cultural things. But not necessarily Asian people.

Honestly, with the exception of the rape issues, which may be triggering to some people and is probably the biggest reason I would consider it older YA, I don't see anything that consitutes too much chaos with too little thought. As I said in the other thread, all of the events, including the near-rapes, were all part of the same thread - Ido and whatshisface throwing over the regime in an attempt to take power. This is not something done without chaos and bloodshed, and none of it seemed gratuitous to me.

Harry Potter, as a series, is something which starts off in the realm of a middle-grade read (9-12) and gets progressively older, but it's still pretty tame. I've seen some people sort of lambast HP for this very reason - it's rather unrealistically chaste view of teenagers and sexuality being one example. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love HP, but I don't think it should be held up as the prime example of an acceptable level of maturity in YA.

(I haven't read any of the other books you've listed, so I can't comment on those, but I looked up ages on Amazon and Where the Red Fern Grows is listed for ages 4-8, The Blue Sword is ages 9-12, though the others are marked as YA.)

When I was a teen I was reading mostly for school - 1984, Animal Farm, To Kill a Mockingbird, All Quiet on the Western Front, etc.

And later, for pleasure, I was reading Christopher Pike and watching things like the X-Files and Interview with a Vampire.

I think your teenage self would've seemed a bit tame to my teenage self, Carol. And I always considered myself fairly sheltered. ;)


@Cindy - I do agree that I think an older audience is probably more appropriate for the book. I also agree that it's a decent introduction to medieval Asian culture - Goodman seemed to do a good job at portraying the aspects of hierarchy and social structure and color representations and certain beliefs pretty well. But it would certainly only be an introduction, and I'm glad it doesn't present itself as being a modern representation of Asian culture so much.


Anyway, this discussion reminds me of the Neil Gaiman interview on Stephen Colbert for the release of 'Graveyard Book' (which is middle-grade and not YA): "Children's fiction always has a little bit of darkness in it..."

I agree that 10-14 is maybe not the best age for marketing this book to. (It wouldn't have stopped me at that age if I wanted to read it. But it would have been too much for many of my peers.)

At that age I was reading stuff like Shogun, so this book wouldn't have been controversial at all to me.

Though admittedly I'd have made some sort of homophobic joke about Lady Dela because, honestly, I was a dumbass back then.

For me young adult is for 15-25 aged young people, not children. (Young ADULT!!!) And this is very appropriated for them.
I like it. I am 34, but I like good young adult literature, too. :o)
I plan to have children. And in future I, as their mother, I certainly will give them it (and similar litarature), when they will be teenagers. I will be glad to see that they read it.
I love slash - I mean, gay stories. I have love it from when I was 9 years old (secretly) and I love it still, when I am 34 - and I will love it when I will be 90. :o)
I can understand to children´s curiosity and passion for slash.
Eon is not slashy as other literature, as Nightrunners by Lynn Flewelling and so on. Which I love. And I will give them, too. Eon is soft and tender from this opinion.
I was a little sorry that Eon wasn´t real boy. But I love Eon (and this book). And I love Lady Dela.

resounding agreement with Valerie & Colleen for all the reasons you guys brought up - I think this is right at the age group they were aiming for.

I absolutely love that lady dela doesn't become A Very Special Episode, or some other heavy-handed clunker on how to be polite to transgendered people. she's just a character, not an Issue.

for this being a YA book, I like how the major theme by the end is that to be awesome, it's ok to be awesome as a girl. you don't have to change who you are and do exactly what the boys do, it's ok to just find your own strength. it's nicely empowering...but to my adult eyes, a bit TOO much with the girl power.