Supernatural Fiction Readers discussion

We have quite a few authors in this group. Nowadays, a big question for those of us who want to write for publication, especially if we're new at it, is: do I try to find a traditional publisher for my work, or do I want to self-publish? (And related big questions, if we decide on the latter route, are: how do I go about it? And are some printing services more reliable than others?) So, this is a thread where we can share our questions, experiences, and insights on this topic!

As a writer (in a small way) myself, I've gone both routes at different times. Personally, my normal recommendation is against self-publishing (or paying a "vanity press" to publish your work, which is essentially the same thing). With the rise of computer technology, it's never been easier or seemed more tempting; but the reasons not to try it are the same as they were 50 years ago, and just as valid. These include the stigma that librarians and booksellers, as well as many readers, attach to self- published works (they're seen as probably not good enough for a real publisher to bother with); the lack of editing and proofreading in so many self-published works, which a less starry-eyed second party could have supplied; the enormous investment of time it takes to market your own book without a publisher; and the sheer economics of it: instead of being paid money for your work, in self-publishing YOU pay your printer --usually upfront, and more than the print job is worth. Yes, finding a traditional publisher, even a small press (and those are the only kind that would give me a chance!) is doggone hard and time- consuming; but worth it, IMO. Self-publishing can be okay in special circumstances; I did it with my novel when my traditional publisher went out of business, and while I waited to find another one. And if you have a work that's hard to shop to publishers for some reason (maybe it only appeals to a small niche audience most publishers don't try to reach, for instance), it may be your answer. But my preference would be to have a traditional publisher if I could.

If you decide self-publishing is for you, and you want to go into it with no initial capital investment, that's possible. There are Internet POD printing services like Lulu and Blurb that offer no- frills packages for no money upfront; they make their profit solely on a cut from the sale of the books, as a traditional publisher would. Their customer service for writers ranges from lousy to nonexistent; you have to do your own proofreading, you may run into some computer glitches, and you don't get an ISBN, so you can't sell on Amazon. (They also don't offer a library/bookstore discount, so you can kiss those markets goodbye.) But they will print the book for you, provide a generic cover (or you can draw your own, if you're artistically gifted), and handle online sales and distribution --no real marketing. They, and other services, also offer fee-based packages that can include cover art, an ISBN, some help with editing and marketing, etc. I don't have personal experience with these; but my advice would be to comparison shop, get feedback from their other writers and customers, and read terms carefully before you sign anything!

J.A. Konrath & Barry Eisler did an interview/article on why they've left the big publishers & it's interesting. Here's the original &, while long, it well worth reading:
http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2011/03...
And a follow up:
http://barryeisler.blogspot.com/

They make some good points, but I don't think they see downside clearly enough. They're established writers & know what they're doing. Yes, new writers can follow their path, but a decent publisher does a lot for an author that they shouldn't have to do because they probably have no skill, time, or just can NOT do it. Editing & proofreading is a good example of the last. The author obviously can't & finding a good set of editors is tough.

Marketing is a skill that people get paid a lot of money to do & it is a full time job. The second link above mentions Amanda Hocking - a self-published success story - who is now going the other way, to traditional publishing. Why? Time she says. Writing is full time work. Publishing & marketing mean she has no time.

It was interesting to read, through a link in one of the articles, about Cory Doctorow's issues with self-publishing. Apparently, he didn't care much for the experience & made a lot of mistakes which cost him, a well known author, money.

Unfortunately, the traditional publishers aren't doing their jobs particularly well now & self-publishing is too easy. That means we're going to continue to see new authors putting out unpolished works because of problems getting proper editing done (It takes a talented, committed team, not just one person paid by the page, IMO.) & properly marketing their books.

On Marketing:
Self-published authors are writers & marketing their work is another learning process - a very difficult one that they often have no talent for. I know I do a crappy job of marketing the bowls & other things I make. I hate that part of the process & only do it because I need to get rid of it. I'd rather give it away then spend time selling it.

Over the few years I've been on GR, I've seen a lot of people develop a very bad attitude toward any self-promotion by an author. One thing that many people, myself included, find annoying is a writer who promotes their book in one or more groups all at once. They don't realize that many of us belong to a lot of groups with similar genres or read all the topics in a group, I guess. When I wind up seeing a bunch of identical messages, I get turned off.

There are more books being published every year, though. Without decent marketing, a book can easily disappear. I read about 150 books a year & I have at least that many in my current To-Read pile, even though I just went through it & thinned it down. There were about 1/2 million published last year, according to one source. You don't have to be a mathematical genius to see that the odds of my reading a book are pretty slim unless it is brought to my attention with good reviews, cheap, & readily accessible. That's a tough combination.

I can't say which is more cursed, that dreaded Scottish play or the topic of self-publishing.

So here goes... As a professional author for over 20 years I have never, ever, so much considered self-publishing. Honestly I cannot think of how many times I have cautioned wannabe writers about the pitfalls of self-pub. The end game is really pretty simple. Do you want to be respected in the professional industry, or do you want to be viewed as a hobby writer?

As to scams, this blog post by publisher Jairus Reddy speaks volumes about the self-pub. reality. industry:http://hobbesendpublishing.wordpress....

As to promoting and marketing. My most recent quarterly royalty check was the largest my fiction publisher has written in ten years... my titles sold nearly 3,000 this past quarter. My publisher works hard to get my books into all viable distributor catalogues, worldwide, and I work hard to promote my books. It is a partnership, not always a perfect one, success is rendered from trial and error.

In truth, I'm not on GR often, it is not as viable an outlet for promoting as other venues are. GR, Library Thing and other reader-based web rings serve readers (duh, that is the reason for them) and readers in these web rings are usually quite honest about borrowing books, or buying them second-hand. Book borrowing sites and second-hand retail does not promote strong primary retail point of sale opportunities. Hence, I spend less time here on GR than on sites that are strong, primary focus, retail point of sale venues, such as media appearances.

AS to reviews... I pay little attention to them. (Evidently, my readership feels the same way ;-)

There are far too many review scams in the industry that the general consumer/reader is not aware of... and these scams target self-pub. authors as well as professionals. One e-mail I got very recently offered 'very low fees' for, would you believe, posting well-written negative reveiws on retail sites and web rings, for an author's competition! GR, Library Thing and Amazon were among the sites listed where the negative reviews would be posted.

If you reply to my post, there is a good chance I may not read it, so if you desire direct communication, please e-mail me through my website.

Elizabeth Eagan-Cox
www.ElizabethEaganCox.net

I think that self-publishing's image is changing since authors such as Eisler, Konrath & Doctorow are doing it. They're pointing out the weaknesses of the current system.

As for reviews, agreed - I don't pay much attention to professional reviews. I pay a LOT of attention to reviews of friends here on GR, though.

Does anyone here, remember the old cartoon (New Yorker, perhaps) of a dog sitting at a computer typing away on the keyboard...the caption was something like, "No one knows you are a dog on the Internet"

When it comes to the Internet, be it GR, Facebook, Twitter or any social network, I, personally, cannot say I know who my "friends" are unless, I truly, and personally know them outside of the Internet.

It is just this kind of deception that the scam reviewers use. They create false IDs and profiles and when you think about how easy it is to do, create a legititmate sounding name/profile, then no person is ever the wiser.

Elizabeth, I vaguely recall that cartoon. It doesn't matter to me if they're dogs, though. Their reviews of similar books & discussions in the various topics are what matter. That gives me a measuring stick for others that they've read, depending on the genre. That's really what I'm here for. I've never met another person who uses GR. I wouldn't mind meeting them, but discussing books certainly doesn't require it any more, thank goodness.

Werner wrote: "... in self-publishing YOU pay your printer --usually upfront, and more than the print job is worth..."

Werner, although there is a degree of vanity to self-publishing ... with Amazon Kindle and Smashwords there really aren't upfront fees, but you're limited to an e-book. I think Createspace's fees weren't that steep for print editions but I rarely sell print vs. ebook anyway.

Just thought I'd mention. We're Pisan, after all, as much as two non-Italians on the internet can be, anyway. :)

Good points here, though. I've got mixed feelings, and have done small press vs. self pubbing (with no upfront fees). I did sell a few more than otherwise would have if the works had remained on my hard drive, and learned a lot in the process. Still, marketing is a bitch when you're trying to write and hold down a day job.

I've got a paranormal mystery now that's written and edited and will undergo another touch-up, but I've been letting it sit for now. I'm on the fence about how to proceed. Not convinced I want to self-pub it though I have a proofreader lined up and a good cover already picked out. Not convinced I can get a large publisher interested -- which means a bonafide literary agent since large publishers don't play without one unless you're SOMEBODY -- and not convinced I'll find a like-minded small press.

I have sent out a lone recent query. Who knows. Maybe that's enough to get some momentum up.

John, thanks for sharing your thoughts, and experiences. No disparagement of authors who've self- published intended in my use of the colloquial term "vanity press," BTW; if I were pointing a disparaging finger, I'd have three pointing back at me, since I've done it myself! I know that most of us who go that route, for one reason or another, don't do it out of vanity.

We can add Amazon's Kindle and Smashwords to our list of self-publishing options that don't charge up front, then. I didn't have personal experience with either of those in my self-published time (though my current publisher, Trestle Press, works with both).

Best of luck with that paranormal mystery, whichever publishing avenue you choose to try!

Thanks Werner. It's a good discussion, and pertinent to my current situation.

It's a weird gig, this writing thing. It's far more than a hobby, but until I can bump up sales, there's a dimension missing from the publishing experience. However, publishing is not writing. Many are the writers who didn't make much money during their lifetimes, despite their skill with the written word.

That's true, John! (So there's hope for you and I yet --in the 22nd century, maybe we'll be household words. :-) )

Absolutely, Werner. A couple of fans helped keep H.P. Lovecraft's works from vanishing into obscurity, so you never know.

Werner, I think you might have missed exactly how much things have changed in the last two years.

At this point the tools for self publishers are so much better than what you've mentioned.

Sylvianna The reason I link to my own book is to prove a point. You'll see that it's for sale at both Amazon and Barnes and Noble, in both print and ebook versions. It cost me $39.00 on CreateSpace to set up a book that would be available at most major book retailers. I've got the discount price set up so libraries, brick and mortar stores, and most etailers will take my book if I put the effort into selling it to them. I obviously have an ISBN number. These days savy self-publishers run screaming from Lulu and the like, they aren't set up for you to do a professional job.

I hired out for an editor and artwork. All said and done I spent a bit over 2500 dollars to get the book set for print and artwork for my website. These days I know how to do it for less. If you click on the Goodreads version of the ebook you can see the quality of text is on par with most traditionally published works and better than the vast number of OCR riddled ebooks for sale by major publishers.

It took me eight months from finished first draft to publication. So, in the time most traditionally published works get out, I can write about two novels and have them earning for me. Because I paid for my own edits, cover, and web art, as soon as I sell enough books, all the profits after that are mine. I get better royalties, and I don't have to share them with anyone. Because I published myself, I decide when my book goes out of print, so I can keep it selling forever. And, though I've resisted the call of the .99 price point, as as self-publisher I can set my book at a more attractive price than most trad published books as well.

As for getting into libraries and brick and mortar stores, right now that's something I'm just not bothering with. It is a lot of work for not nearly enough return on the money. But, I also think physical bookstores are not a long term winning strategy. They're going under left and right. And, while I don't think bookstores are going to truly be a thing of the past anytime soon, I'll be shocked if they don't go the way of the music store. Five years from now, will access to physical bookstores be worth the hassle and expense(by expense I mean wait time and loss of royalties) of being traditionally published?

The way I see it, if you crunch the numbers, there isn't much upside to going the traditional route, unless you're JK Rowling or Stephanie Meyer. You lose time, you lose control, and if you have a mid-list book you probably never earn out your advance, so for all practical purposes you sold your book for whatever your advance was. Sure, I might not make as much as a trad published writer in the first two or three years, but year four and on I'll keep earning, most authors don't. Since I already know I didn't write a mega bestseller, and I had the capital to set up my book, I'm not seeing what a traditional publisher could get for me that I couldn't get for myself.

One of the other posters indicated reputation was something that the trads could get me. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Sookie from Jersey Shore is a traditionally published author, too. You'll note that's not much to build a reputation on. A collection of strong novels that sells well, now that is worth something, but that's nothing a publisher can give me, that's something I have to earn for myself.

A publisher could do marketing. Sure. They could. But, I'm sure you know that most midlisters, first timers, and small press authors are often left on their own when it comes to marketing, and they're expected to pay for it out of their advance. And it makes sense that it should be this way, the publishing company makes way more money if they back a few strong books with everything they've got, and hope that a few of the others take off as well. The fact that most novels die in less than a year is built into the way big publishing works. It's the design, not a design flaw.

The publisher can get your book into the hands of reviewers. Once again, they can, but usually, you the author are doing a lot of that these days. And, if like me, you're a genre writer, most of the posh review sites really want nothing to do with you. Sure there are sites that won't take indie works, but there are literally thousands of them that do, and with more and more places like Goodreads, Shelfari,and Librarything popping up, professional reviews are becoming less and less important as well.

Five years ago I would have said, 'Avoid self-publishing.' Five years from now, I expect self-publishing is how everyone will get started, and the big publishers will check out what's available, what sells well, and offer those properties the logistical support to turn them into mega best sellers.

Keryl, thanks for a well-reasoned post, and for sharing the personal experience you've had. I'll hasten to add, re my post above, that I'm no expert on the state of the publishing field, just an author of sorts --but my personal experience with self-publishing has been strictly with the low-end variety (aka, the poor person's approach :-) ), and yours has been with the high end. Actually, I was (vaguely) aware that a lot of the services you describe for self-publishers are out there; I'm just not in a position to talk about them from personal experience. A self-publishing author who's in a financial position to invest money in his/her venture should take your advice and do it; as the old sayings have it, "you get what you pay for," and "it takes money to make money." (Basically, I was just telling the would-be self-publishers at the other, bottom end of the economic pyramid, who know they can't afford to invest money up-front and assume that's an insuperable barrier, that it doesn't have to be insuperable --even though their results also won't be as lucrative as yours.)

My experience with traditional publishing has also been low-end rather than high-end, strictly with small presses rather than Big Publishing. Some of the considerations at that end are different; for instance, I didn't have to "earn out my advance," since I never got one. :-) But you make some valid points there, too; and as more authors of quality work turn to self-publishing, I think the prejudice of some customers and reviewers against self-published works will gradually diminish. IMO, the vetting function of a publisher is still valuable, if they perform it responsibly --but we all know that there are plenty of them who don't.

Being a librarian, I'm naturally much less inclined to dismiss the library market than you are; but just on general principles, my advice to other authors is, don't ignore or dismiss ANY market you can use to get your work to readers: libraries, bookstores, other stores that carry books, online vendors, book signings, etc. (Personally, I hope brick-and-mortar bookstores remain a viable part of the book trade in the future, and I think it's possible that they will.)

Best wishes for continued success with your writing, Keryl!

Werner wrote: "Being a librarian, I'm naturally much less inclined to dismiss the library market than you are; but just on general principles, my advice to other authors is, don't ignore or dismiss ANY market you can use to get your work to readers: libraries, bookstores, other stores that carry books, online vendors, book signings, etc. (Personally, I hope brick-and-mortar bookstores remain a viable part of the book trade in the future, and I think it's possible that they will.)"

Thank you for the lovely response. I'd like to touch on this a bit because that's a valid point. I don't see any reason to say, "I refuse to do (insert name of potential sales vector here)." That's part of why I do have my publishing set up for the discounted prices, but at this time, with only one book out, the amount of legwork to try to get into stores and libraries isn't worth the shelf space. Once I've got several titles, (I'm thinking five or so) then taking the time and effort to get into stores/libraries will be worth while.

For me the math breaks down like this, for every hour I can spend trying to get my one book into a bookstore, I'm looking at a lost hour of writing the next book, or a lost hour promoting the book on places where I already know I can get buyers. Then on a best case scenario, say Barnes and Noble does pick up Sylvianna, I've got one book in the middle of the fantasy shelf. I worked at Barnes and Noble, so I know what usually happens to one book all by it's lonesome on the shelf. It stays there. I then not only have to eat the cost of printing the books, but then I have to take them back, too. Without an already set fan following, that's a very expensive proposition.

Werner, since you've gone both ways in the past, I highly recommend you check out Createspace.com. I think you'd be very pleased to see what's available for self-publishers these days.

Interesting thoughts. How does a book come to my attention out of the hundreds of thousands published each year? I would think that marketing a book would be very tough. Does Createspace help with that, too?

Jim wrote: "Interesting thoughts. How does a book come to my attention out of the hundreds of thousands published each year? I would think that marketing a book would be very tough. Does Createspace help with that, too? "

Supposedly they offer help, but A. You have to pay for it, and B. I have no idea how good it is. Like most indies, I save my money for editing and cover art.

But, yes, book marketing is hard work. And it's a lot of work. I use the be-charming-company-online-and-hope-people-will-decide-to-check-out-my-book-because-they-like-what-I-wrote technique, and it's ahem *slow.* I also blog, tweet, do interviews, and send out copies of my book for review.

I probably do about an hour to an hour and a half of promotion a day. (My understanding is this is true for most authors.) Right now the effect of that promotion is small. As I get more titles out, my promotional time budget will get me more bang for the buck.

For example, in three months I've gotten 114 Twitter followers, none of whom I know in real life. Each week the number of additional followers has increased as people see my tweets and blog posts. In another two months that number will probably be closer to 300, two months after that, maybe 600. As that number grows, each minute spent tweeting becomes more valuable.

The big thing is just don't beat people over the head with your book. Be useful to any community you join. It will take time, but unless you're starting off at age 75+ you aren't in a hurry.

Oh, and write a good book. All the marketing on earth isn't going to help much if you didn't write a good book.

Thanks for the recommendation, Keryl. Truth to tell, right now I'm actually very happy with my current publisher, and not looking for a different venue; self-publishing for me was a stopgap until I could get a new publisher to replace the one that went out of business. But if I'm ever in that boat again, I'll certainly at least look into Createspace!

Your point about prioritizing your marketing efforts where they'd do the most good is perfectly valid; and the individual strategy for each writer has to depend on his/her own resources and opportunities. Being a librarian myself, when the first edition of my novel was published in 2004, I had contacts in the library profession and good possibilities for networking, so I was able to bring my book to their attention that way where someone else might not have gotten a hearing, and getting a hearing led to a few sales. (And yes, that was marketing I did myself; the publisher didn't do much, and couldn't afford to.) Also, while you may not want to spend time trying to reach libraries in general, public libraries are often interested in buying books by local authors in their own area. So making contact with your local library is time invested with a good shot at a sale; and anything that puts your book in reach of readers can generate word-of-mouth advertising. (If the local library can't afford to buy, a signed donated copy will usually be appreciated and can reach readers, too.) And if your local library is part of the OCLC network, having your book in their catalog will also put it in the World Catalog database.

The point about having to take back books sold to Barnes and Noble that don't sell in turn to customers is a valid one; and it isn't only a problem for indie authors and with that one chain. Basically (as I learned in 2004), ALL the big brick-and-mortar chain bookstores demand very disadvantageous contracts that allow them to return anything that doesn't sell, meaning that when they "buy" your book you can never count on keeping the money, the printing costs may be a dead loss, and you may be stuck with a problem of storing books that the POD system is supposed to eliminate. That's not doing business in good faith; and while Big Publishing can afford to deal with it, neither self-published authors or small presses can. (Silver Lake Publishing refused to do business with the big chains for that reason.) Your better bet for bookstore marketing, IMO, if you go that route, is to contact small home-owned stores, especially in your own local area. If they agree to stock your book, they won't buy many copies at a time; but the sales will be final and you won't be plagued with returns! But it's also important to know --and make sure your potential customers know-- that as long as you use a publisher or distributor that offers bookstore discounts, your book IS available through most any bookstore, large or small, whether it's on the shelf or not; virtually all of them will gladly special order any in-print book for a customer at list price. (For many customers, that's an optimum purchasing method --it avoids having to give a credit card number online, and the bookstore pays for shipping.)

A recent blog post by my Goodreads friend Karen Kaufman, who's a self-published author herself, highlights a couple of online resources of possible interest to writers who self-publish. You can check it out at www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/4... .

I find that for me, a mixture of about 3/4 traditional publishing with 1/4 self publishing seems to work.

Good point, Charles; for writers with multiple works, it doesn't always have to be an either/or thing!