MobileRead Book Challenges discussion

Current Participants:
Christa (thread starter)
MrsJoseph
Mike the Paladin

Status: I'm finished, Mrs J is also finished.. Unhidden spoilers will start around Message #20 of this thread.

Ahhh! How did you get to chapter 9 already??! I haven't had a chance to get started yet. :-)

I need to play catch up...

MrsJoseph wrote: "Ahhh! How did you get to chapter 9 already??! I haven't had a chance to get started yet. :-)

I need to play catch up..."

Well, that's a first. I'm never ahead of you when it comes to reading! LOL I'll update the status until you get caught up. It just so happens that the end of Chapter 8 is a good place to stop and discuss how this book is a little different from the first two so far, including the introduction of Michael.

Ok, so I'm about 7% in (somewhere around chapters 3 & 4) and Harry is already starting to piss me off. I need him to get over his "damsel in distress" issues quick, fast, and in a hurry.

(view spoiler)[Some chick shows up at your door, you know she practices magic - but it's ok she doesn't give you her name or tell you what the fuck she does with magic???! *smack, smack* WAKE UP, HARRY and buy a clue. Women can be evil, too. (hide spoiler)]

As you can tell, I really hate it when his brain goes on vacation. :0)

So far, my biggest issue is Michael. Not sure why, since he seems to be the Ultimate Good Guy (tm), but the combination of him and Harry make Michael seem smug and Harry seem whinier. I guess it's the character contrast.

Don't know if I mentioned this previously, but I don't much care for Susan. Not sure why she bugs me, but she does. I should like her, she's strong when she needs to be and all that, but... I don't know, she just annoys me. Maybe Jim Butcher and I just have very different ideas of the kind of woman Harry should be with.

Christa wrote: "So far, my biggest issue is Michael. Not sure why, since he seems to be the Ultimate Good Guy (tm), but the combination of him and Harry make Michael seem smug and Harry seem whinier. I guess it's ..."

YES! I'm not a Susan fan. At all. And I think it's dirty, sneaky (and on Harry's part dumb) for a reporter to sleep with her major source of information. Ick

MrsJoseph wrote: "YES! I'm not a Susan fan. At all. And I think it's dirty, sneaky (and on Harry's part dumb) for a reporter to sleep with her major source of information. Ick "

So glad it's not just me. Truthfully, when Michael was trying to get Harry to admit he loved her, I was like "Noooooo!". And the clothes she's wearing in the beginning of this book - a full grown woman, supposedly a professional reporter... Skank alert! I feel catty just voicing it, but I don't care. Do. Not. Like. Her.

Harry may be a whiny pain in the ass, but he deserves better.

Christa wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "YES! I'm not a Susan fan. At all. And I think it's dirty, sneaky (and on Harry's part dumb) for a reporter to sleep with her major source of information. Ick "

So glad it's not j..."

Agree 100%! I've felt that way about her from the very beginning...like, why are you tossing it at him? Where is your professional demeanor??

And why would he LOVE HER?? Gag

MrsJoseph wrote: "And why would he LOVE HER?? Gag "

I've been thinking about this and came up with: He's a man. She's hot and she puts up with him.

Can you imagine what this series would be like if a woman had written it? Harry would still be a bumbling fool, but it would be endearing and he would not be in love with an unprofessional skank.

But I still love Harry nonetheless. I have become a Harry Dresden Fangurl. And so I keep reading.

Ok, I just got to chapter 9. Ugggh, I hate Susan.

I did some reading last night so I'm a little past the beginning of Chapter 11. It's Susan-free for a little while.

It's been a while since I read this book but I do agree about Susan; I don't know what Harry sees in her!

Bianca wrote: "It's been a while since I read this book but I do agree about Susan; I don't know what Harry sees in her!"

Yup. If I hear Harry mention her "soft skin" once more, I'll retch.

I'd love to hear a man's opinion on this. MrsJ, wasn't the series recommended to you by a gentleman in the Fantasy group? I'd love to get his take on Susan.

Yeah, my friend Mike. He's a huge Dresden fan (who is currently going though withdrawal waiting for the next book, lol). I'll talk to him - he might even want to drop in (if you don't mind).

I don't mind at all if he drops in! Especially since I suspect there will be more Dresden Files books being discussed in the future. :)

So, I just got to chapter 32. (view spoiler)[she's supposed to love him?? Is this an authorial attempt to get me to like Susan more? And can Harry be more of a dumb ass, please?? (hide spoiler)]

Hmmm, yeah, it gets even... um, deeper in a few chapters. ("Deeper" as in when you step in something stinky.)

BUT... I'm liking Harry better now that I'm almost at the end (at 92%). I mean, I already loved him, but liking him is something different. I'm proud of him, the whole Susan thing aside.

I'm 86% - I just got to the part where he (view spoiler)[jumped into the vampire house but didn't listen to Bob and so was taken by the vampires. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished. *sigh* All I'll say right now is that I can see why many reviews state that this book stages a turning point in the series that picks up in the next one. I'll be ready to discuss further when you're done. :)

I just finished, too. :)

I did feel that it got a LOT better, I guess I'm (view spoiler)[supposed to feel a lot of sympanthy for Susan but I don't, really. I feel that she got in the situation by not paying attention and setting herself up. (hide spoiler)]

I updated the status in the first post to reflect that spoilers would not be hidden starting around now. I think that's fair.

The only thing surprising about what happened to Susan is that it took till book #3 before she really got herself in trouble. Harry gets into all sorts of problems because, ultimately, he wants to do the right thing. Susan, on the other hand, is ambitious and wants to get ahead, and when she does end up helping someone, it's mostly because she forced herself into the situation to begin with.

I'm not ashamed to say that at one point, I was ready to tell Harry to go with Lea rather than Susan. That's how much I dislike Susan. But Harry loves her. Poor sap. And now he'll be doing everything he can to "fix it", no doubt.

Okay, I'll stop hating on Susan for a minute and say that Harry really became a hero this time around. Yes, he bumbled his way in more than once (as usual) but he seems to have grown a pair, so to speak, allowing him to risk more than he has before.

Now, this next point is something I can't quite get my head around, and it's even more interesting because it touches on something that bothered you about the first two books. Harry has had to hide things from others because of the White Council, causing a rift between him and Murphy in the first two. So what happens in book #3? Almost EVERYONE except Harry and Michael knows about Kravos and no one bothers telling him about it, despite his involvement in the case. Murphy knew, Rudolph, Sullivan, Susan, and probably Mickey all knew.

But Harry isn't really mad. He's just grateful that everyone is okay. So either Harry understands the hold Internal Affairs has over the department (which doesn't excuse Susan in any case) because it's kind of a parallel to his own situation with the Council*, or Jim Butcher just decided it wasn't worth exploring. I dunno.

* except IA fires people whereas the Council kills them.

I saw that. I was thinking that everything could have gone differently if he had known.

I also get annoyed at how willing Harry is to trade away important parts of himself. He'd doing good but getting into trouble for it all the time.

MrsJoseph wrote: "I also get annoyed at how willing Harry is to trade away important parts of himself. He'd doing good but getting into trouble for it all the time. "

And he just kind of accepts it. "I have to do this even though I'm going to pay for it later." I kind of admire it but I also want to smack him for it.

I'm glad that Lydia/Barbara turned out to be a victim. We don't need anymore "goth girl acts as willing bait in exchange for vamp fix" in contemporary fiction.

From our Jim Butcher buddy read thread at Fantasy Afficandos, Mike: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...


If I say anything about my take on Susan it will constitute a MAJOR spoiler. I've never been a real fan of Susan... but I can't say why without giving "stuff" away. When we first met her I liked her, "okay" but she quickly did things that gave me reservations. Later events caused me to feel "more negatively".

Susan seems to like Harry but she' at best inconsiderate and at worst self-centered to the point of disaster... Just my take of course.

Christa wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "I also get annoyed at how willing Harry is to trade away important parts of himself. He'd doing good but getting into trouble for it all the time. "

And he just kind of accepts ..."

Tell me about it! I was sooo annoyed with Harry for the whole "willing to help a woman simply because she is a woman - who happens to not give him any information regarding her issues" That has gotten him in trouble in more ways than one.

I was glad to see Lydia be real innocent.

I just read your review, and saw this part: "If Michael is able to do things without selling his soul, why not Harry? And why isn’t God helping Harry out? Maybe those are things that are addressed in later novels."

This touched on something that stuck out to me. At the "party turned roast" just for a second we think God is stepping in. Harry asks for His help, a path is cleared, and it's... Lea. Since we know Lea wants him in one piece, there's really no reason to entertain the possibility that God had anything to do with it. So why have that at all?

As an agnostic, I appreciate the even-handed treatment of Faith in this book - acknowledging Michael's power and the source of it fully without denigration or elevation. That makes that part even more bizarre, really, setting it up for a Hand of God moment (which would have been appropriate and fit within the story) and then giving the glory to Lea.

I know exactly what you mean. I was rather annoyed at the "miracle" being Lea - who only wants to do harm. I think that it would never have occured to me without the introduction of Michael into the equation. Once you see a power like that - based on good works, etc - introduced I can't help but to wonder why Harry is getting the short end of the stick. I'd think he'd done enough to help balance his scale out.

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense the way it was done. It would be different if Harry didn't acknowledge the source of Michael's power, but that's not the case. In the story world, it's not a matter of belief or non-belief - it's more about ascribing to a magical system.

Story worlds, especially those involving magic, need rules, and something doesn't add up here. It seems to me that if Harry can take in Kravos' power and use it for good, then God should be able to assist Harry. If it was a matter of him not being a "follower", then Michael shouldn't be able to help him at all, I would think. Either the ends justifies the means or they don't, you can't have it both ways.

The more I think about it, the less it makes sense.

Wow...good discussion. MrsJ invited me, if it bugs anyone just sling some over ripe veggies my way and I'll leave. :)

I am (this will not surprise MrsJoseph) a huge Michael fan (look at my screen name). As you Christa are an agnostic I can see why you wouldn't have the affinity with him I do. Take comfort, Harry himself remains uncomfortable with faith and while Michael will always give God the credit (as he says later when Harry points out that God doesn't have to be the source of everything good that happens...he knows it doesn't have to be God but recognizing that it could be "only seems polite" :). Michael doesn't appear in a lot of books, but he does become one of the semi-main players along with "OTHERS" (cue dramatic music)....

I would love to go on, but that would entail spoilers, and I wouldn't do that to you. Especially in the Susan area.. but, I wouldn't trust her as far as I could sling her...one handed...with a broken wrist...against a head wind...on a bad day...standing on a banana peel.

By the way, did you note Harry's epitaph? You mentioned he did the right thing at the party and on his head stone it says: He Died Doing The Right Thing.

This book sets up so much of the action. I feel strongly that this is where the "series" moved from being separate or individual books about Harry Dresden and became a "series", you'll see what I mean.

I'm at the end of my "pre-release reread of all the Dresden books just getting well into Changes again...but it's still 2 months till the next one comes out. Help!

Oh well. Someone told me Midnight Riot was a good urban fantasy for Dresden fans maybe I'll try it next... But Kudos to Jim Butcher, I think the Dresden books are something special.

Thanks for the invite...and look no spoilers.

Hiya Mike! Welcome to the party! I'm actually glad Michael will be reappearing. Towards the end of the book, I liked him more, and my issues were more with the story oddities rather than the character. I think I mentioned earlier that part of my issue with Michael was that he made Harry seem whinier by comparison, and Harry doesn't need any "help" in that area. LOL

That's something else that changed in this book - as it went on, Harry's sense of self seemed to firm up. I guess it's all about "with greater power comes greater responsibility". He still has his "oh crap why me?" moments, but I picture him standing taller as he says it, if that makes sense.

As for characters reappearing later - I hope Thomas is one of them. His character has a lot of potential.

LOVE your sentiments regarding Susan!

Yes, I noted Harry's epitaph and both times the headstone was mentioned (at the roast and at the burial scene with Murphy) I thought to myself, "That will be true no matter how long he lives."

Obviously, Butcher's doing something very, very right because I can't remember the last time I loved a character as much as I love Harry Dresden. He becomes very real to me while I'm reading. Ironically, I think that's why I'm so hard on these books. Most fiction goes through my eyes, into my brain and then out into the ether as soon as I start another book. These books actually stay with me long enough to pick them apart.

I'm looking forward to Book 4. I can feel that things are moving - there's a momentum in this book that wasn't as evident in the first two.

Again, welcome, and thanks for joining in!

Cool and thanks. Yes to it all, and the Harry character continues to grow and develop. Time between volumes actually "passes" so each time we pick up a book it's a year or a year and a half or whatever since we saw Harry last... And (I don't think this is a spoiler) the head stone came with a grave. So Harry has a grave in a large ornate grave yard just waiting for him. We visit it a few times.

I look forward to being able to discuss the plot development with everyone. And I suppose I envy you a little with all the books still ahead of you.

Of course, I'm a little concerned that Butcher may not finish the series in my remaining years...forgive me if it bothers you, but I plan to pray about it. I don't think it's an unreasonable request, not like wanting to read all the books on my "to be read list" (as I keep adding to it LOL)... Hope J.B. hurries. I think he said somewhere there may be like 10 more books.

:)

Oh my goodness! I just checked your profile - you're in Hermitage??!! I'm in East Nashville. Small world, eh?

I'm so glad you joined in - you're kind of our resident Dresden expert. :) The grave isn't a spoiler - when Harry and Murphy are at the burial in the rain it mentions the headstone and the open grave.

It doesn't bother me at all that you plan to pray about it. When I say I'm agnostic, I mean it in the sense of "I have no idea but not ruling anything out at the moment". And I think finishing the series is a very reasonable thing to request.

10 more books, eh? There's already 13 plus the various shorts, right? I read Restoration of Faith before starting the series. I'll need to keep track of the order of the others - I'm a stickler for reading things in order. :) The Goodreads series list looks pretty accurate, so I guess I'll use that.

I will need to pace myself, though, so I don't get "series burnout". When it comes to reading, I have to mix it up a bit to keep my brain engaged.

I hadn't checked your profile either. I'll have to check your book list..which of course probably end up increasing the number of books I want to read.

I read the first seven Dresden books back to back and then sent for the next 2 and read them shortly after the first 7. I was reading a lot then (well I'm reading a lot now, but differently). My wife was bed fats at the time and getting continually worse. I was either giving care or waiting to so I had to rest my mind a lot. I never got burn out on these. I did a couple of other series around then but not the Dresden books.

Since then I've started Butcher's other series (Codex Alera). Their good, but not nearly as good as the Dresden books. I have the last two on "waiting to be read shelf" but a few are ahead of them. When the next Dresden book is released (and I've preordered it LOL) I plan to move it to the top of the list...and then read it as slowly as I'm able. :)

You'll find all kinds of things on my shelves - almost all the books I've listed here are on my Kindle, and I'm an avid collector of free/bargain ebook offerings. I haven't even begun to add my paper book collection. I want to groan just contemplating that task.

Urban Fantasy is kind of new for me. Getting the Kindle really expanded my awareness of genres I hadn't explored much previously. I'd read some standard Fantasy fare in the past, and plenty of Horror/Fantasy.

I actually knew about the Dresden Files initially because of the TV series on SciFi Channel. (I refuse to use the new spelling of it.) It's been a while since I watched it, though, so when I started the series I was able to get into Butcher's vision of the characters rather than that of the casting director.

Reading is so much more fun when there are people to discuss it with.

Agreed.

I haven't gotten an Ereader...yet. I'm coming to realize I'll eventually have to. Don't know which one or anything, but there are so many books now only available in that format.

*Off Subject* Mike, have you tried Andre Norton's Witch World? You might like them.


I have to say - I want Harry and Murphy to get together. she would be able to respect what he does and hopefully he could do the same for her.

I read the first couple of Witch World books "back when" and I mean back when like back in the '60s. I liked them pretty well, though i lost interest as the series went on. I think I still have an omnibus edition of the first few somewhere.

I was never much of an Andre Norton fan, but she's one of those writer I always think I should like more than I do. Back when she was one of the few writers of science fiction (and science fantasy) you could find. I've read several of her books, but I think Witch World is probably the one I liked most.

As for Murphy and Harry, I've read farther than you have so I must "restrain myself". You'll probably get more frustrated over the relationship between her and Dresden, but she's a BIG part of the story and there is this possibility that I can't say anything about...but I really hope Butcher goes "that way".... I know, but if I say any more, major spoilers.

Oooh, don't get me speculating on Harry and Murphy!! LOL They would be good together, definitely. But I'll stop now so Mike doesn't have to sit on his hands trying to avoid spoilers. :)

Witch World sounds interesting. Might have to look into those after my TBR list gets down to, say, less than 400. :)

I did a count - I have less than 250 books in my TBR pile :-)




...ok, I admit there are a lot of free books I have hanging out that i haven't counted.

LOL Since all my ebooks go into calibre, not counting is not an option. I'm compulsive about importing them as soon as I get them. You do NOT want to know the total. I will say it is considerably more than what I've got shelved here.

I will never run out of books, but unfortunately I will also never run out of excuses to get more.

Of course...books should always be purchased when you have the chance.

I stopped consciously adding books here when it became obvious that my to be read list here would just depress me if I kept adding and adding... so.

I'm now forcing my fingers not to type any more about Harry and what happens whe

I can't say no to a book. Never could.

I did the same thing regarding the books here - I now only add a book if I'm reading it and it's not already shelved here.

Now, you're being very good at avoiding spoilers, but don't tease us! LOL

I lost control for a moment...it required that I overpower myself.

Sensei has a bad habit of giving just enough info to titillate and never enough to satisfy...

:-P

It's a gift.