The History Book Club discussion

Welcome to the continuation of the wonderful book: All Quiet on the Western Front!

by Erich Maria Remarque

This week's assigned reading is as follows for Week 2:

Week 2, May 9-15: Chapter 2 (pages 19-33)

This is proving to be a great discussion of World War I, different perspectives on a soldier who is portrayed to actually have served in the German army as well as the effects of war and suffering and despair on all sides. The reading is fairly quick, but there is a lot to think about, share, and learn.

This is a May/June/July discussion so everybody has plenty of time to read this selection. Most weekly assignments are fairly short, so it should be pretty easy to catch-up if you are ever behind. Feel free to comment on any of the weekly threads that have been opened (however please avoid spoilers).

This book was kicked off May 2nd. This is the eighth historical fiction group selected book. We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. Usually the book can also be obtained at your local library, or on your Kindle or even Audible. EDIT: I've been told that this book is NOT available on Kindle. If anyone finds out differently, please let us all know. Thanks.

Thanks to all who read and share their thoughts, ideas, and knowledge with the rest of the group.

This thread is open for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

For your convenience, here are some links to related threads:

Table of Contents and Syllabus: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Introductory thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Glossary (spoiler thread) is a good place to post links that will help in understanding the personages discussed, their background, the events and the battles, or the environment itself, etc.: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Book-as-a-Whole (spoiler thread) is a great place to discuss spoilers if you've already read the book. You can also use this thread to check if something is a spoiler before posting on a weekly thread.: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is a link to the Military History folder which deals with World War I: (there is a lot here)
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...

In Chapter 2, Baumer tells us about some of his experiences with basic training. He and his classmates ended up with Corporal Himmelstoss who is "the strictest disciplinarian in the camp" (page 23). After weeks of being pushed to the edge physically, mentally, and emotionally, Kropp had enough. He talked back to Himmelstoss and threatened an inquiry and a fight. After that there was a certain amount of "peace" (page 26). Baumer tells us that those weeks of training made them "hard, suspicious, pitiless, vicious, tough" (page 26), and that was just what they needed to survive in the trenches.

Then we are with Baumer as he sits by Kemmerich's death-bed. Kemmerich now realizes his leg is gone and seems to know he is dying. Baumer tries to cheer him up, talking about going home and the future. Kemmerich tells Baumer to take is boots for Muller. They talk some more, and Kemmerich begins to gurgle. Baumer tries to get him some help, but everyone is too busy. Then Kemmerich is dead. Baumer gathers his stuff and goes outside. He runs with his grief. Back at the hut, Baumer gives Muller the boots and they fit well.

What do you all think of Kemmerich's death? And the boots?

I think interweaving the two is another example of Remarque alternatively pulling and pushing on our emotions. We see evidence of Baumer's intense grief over loosing his friend and it pulls our hearts. And then we learn the boots fit Muller and suddenly the evidence of grief is gone. Personally, I felt emotionally jerked. Suddenly I, the reader, am supposed to be done sympathizing with Baumer, because I'm not longer reading about his grief. Again, I think Remarque did this on purpose, because that is the kind of emotional jerking that so many soldiers went through. What do you all think?

Kemmerich's death was very moving emotionally. Your point about being emotionally jerked is interesting and it may be true. I think it is an illustration of how a soldier has to compartmentalize his grief in order to keep moving forward. The evidence of grief is gone in the future, but likely not the grief itself, especially since Baumer has to write the letter back home to the parents. But by the time he got back to camp, he had put his grief away. What is interesting to me is that Muller seems emotionless except for perhaps happiness at getting the boots. When he first visits Kemmerich, he expressed no emotion except annoyance over possibly losing the boots. Without knowing anything else about this character, he seems heartless.

Regarding the training. It seemed that alot of those exercises were pointless and caused unnecessary pain. It is interesting to me that after Baumer describes it, he says that it was just what they needed to survive. So in the end does that imply that Himmelstoss was a good trainer?

Sarah wrote: "Kemmerich's death was very moving emotionally. Your point about being emotionally jerked is interesting and it may be true. I think it is an illustration of how a soldier has to compartmentalize ..."

Oh, definitely we are seeing how a soldier compartmentalizes. Perhaps Muller's lack of emotion is due to a similar compartmentalization. Perhaps his is more extreme than Baumer's, to the point that he doesn't allow himself any grief or depth at all. The interesting thing to me is that Baumer doesn't seem to blame Muller at all for caring about the boots more than about their buddy.

Sarah wrote: "...Regarding the training. It seemed that alot of those exercises were pointless and caused unnecessary pain. It is interesting to me that after Baumer describes it, he says that it was just what they needed to survive. So in the end does that imply that Himmelstoss was a good trainer? "

I'm glad you brought up the training. I was thinking about that as well. This whole section about Himmelstoss and the training reminded me of the book "Band of Brothers" by Ambrose. The E company described in the book were a tightly knit group who went through high casualties and lived through some amazing moments in WWII. At the end of the book, many of the soldiers, looking back, attributed some of their success to their sadistic commanding officer. From the book description: "the despised, sadistic C.O. who first trained Easy Company (and to whose strictness many soldiers attributed their survival of the war)." In a twisted way, Himmelstoss was good. But... I just can't bring myself to support such things.

by Stephen E. Ambrose

Elizabeth S wrote: "What do you all think of Kemmerich's death? And the boots?

I think interweaving the two is another example of Remarque alternatively pulling and pushing on our emotions. We see evidence of Bau..."

I think the boots make them soldiers; they are moving forward; bent on surviving. They are as you referred, "hard, suspicious, pitiless, vicious, tough" (pg.26). They are out to win and survive a war.
Without the boots or by not taking/wearing the boots, "we are no longer soldiers but little more than boys; no one would believe we could carry packs. It is a strange moment when we stand naked; then we become civilians, and almost feel ourselves to be so." (pg.22)
I think it's not so much they care more about the boots than Kemmerich but simply that Kemmerick will not need them anymore. He's done his time as a soldier, now he is released into himself again?

Sarah wrote: "Kemmerich's death was very moving emotionally. Your point about being emotionally jerked is interesting and it may be true. I think it is an illustration of how a soldier has to compartmentalize ..."

I think Himmelstoss prepared them for the harsh realities of war. Thus, his lessons will help them survive. In this way he is a good trainer. However, is the lesson of survival worth it? Without one's essence/humanity are they really living?

I guess I am thinking that surviving and living are two separate terms? It seems the soldiers in this feel they do not have a choice about war by societal conditions so they just try to survive (go through motions) but are not allowed to live as they want/with their own identity?

Elizabeth S wrote: "Sarah wrote: "...Regarding the training. It seemed that alot of those exercises were pointless and caused unnecessary pain. It is interesting to me that after Baumer describes it, he says that it w..."

You know I didn't realize Band of Brothers was a book before it was a series. I will have to put that one on my list.

And I would say there is definitely a difference between living and surviving here. Living has been put on hold. It was interesting how the Baumer described this in the beginning of the chapter, "For as young men of twenty everything is extraordinarily vague ... All the older men are linked up to a previous life .. at our age the influence of parents is at its weakest and girls have not yet got a hold over us .. besides this there is little else." I'm not sure what would be better in this situation, to be older and have memories and a family to think of .. or to not have experienced much of life and function under the awareness that you may never experience it.

Good point, Sarah. Is it more of a bitter experience as an older man knowing what you are missing, or do you fight that much harder because you have more to lose if you lose the war? I really don't know.

Autumn and Sarah, you both bring up good points about living versus surviving. Sometimes survival takes so much work that living is set aside for a while. But the longer we set aside living, the harder it is to return to it.

By the way, Sarah, every time you mention a book, even if it has been mentioned before in the thread, please include the citation:

by Stephen E. Ambrose

It is definitely a book worth reading. I'm glad I could help add to your list. :)

Autumn wrote: "...I think it's not so much they care more about the boots than Kemmerich but simply that Kemmerick will not need them anymore. He's done his time as a soldier, now he is released into himself again?

I like what you say about the boots, Autumn. Really, caring about boots isn't as callus as it sounds. And yet, even understanding how important boots are, it still seems callus. I guess that is part of how war pulls and rips at emotions and priorities.

The other thing that strikes me about this chapter are the doctors and orderlies. They seem very overwhelmed. This war is a new experience for them, the sheer amount of death and injuries; they are swamped, they need beds and one dies, then that means you have a free bed.

Elizabeth S wrote: "He runs with his grief."

He runs with a lot of things, I think. Grief, certainly, but note how he says how effortless it is for him to run. He is alive, in working order. He is running to remind himself that he is alive, moving forward, with some sort of purpose (here, to deliver the boots).

Edit: added "his" to quote.

Question: It just struck me that it is possible that Baumer was there was to prevent orderlies from taking Kemmerick's stuff. Anyone else had that thought?

That's not to discount Baumer being there as a friend also, but perhaps the overarching reason is to protect Kemmerick's property. Certainly Baumer doesn't want him to die (nor does he want the responsibility of contacting K's parents via letter).

Bryan wrote: "The other thing that strikes me about this chapter are the doctors and orderlies. They seem very overwhelmed. This war is a new experience for them, the sheer amount of death and injuries; they a..."

It is that practicality with the boots thing, isn't it. But it seems a little more callus because we (the readers) are looking at it more from the other side.

It is interesting to compare medical ability and priorities during WWI with wars before and after. I've read historical fiction books about Waterloo and about the Civil War, and I've read books about WWII and seen M*A*S*H (Korean War). WWI is kinda in the middle of it all. The medical people can do so much more than during previous wars, and there are actual hospitals, etc. But emergency/war-front medicine has a lot of evolution left.

Misty wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "He runs with his grief."

He runs with a lot of things, I think. Grief, certainly, but note how he says how effortless it is for him to run. He is alive, in working order. He is..."

I like your analysis. I think it would have been better if I had said that he runs *from* his grief. It seems that as Baumer runs he manages to leave some of his grief behind in the hospital, and the rest he is able to package away for a while. It'll come up again as he writes to Kemmerich's mother, but for now Baumer achieves some relief from it.

Misty wrote: "Question: It just struck me that it is possible that Baumer was there was to prevent orderlies from taking Kemmerick's stuff. Anyone else had that thought?

That's not to discount Baumer being the..."

I did wonder about that. And I wonder, if Baumer was there to protect the boots, was it something he decided to do on his own or did Muller ask him to do it? It seems like one of those unspoken things that comrades-in-arms both understand without needing words.

To kinda springboard off of Misty's question, why do you think Baumer was the only one there with Kemmerich during those last hours? Was Baumer just closer to Kemmerich than the others? Or is Baumer perhaps more tender-hearted? And where do the boots fit into the equation?

Baumer writes the letter back home to Kemmerick's mom right? Can't find it.- I think he symbolizes those that are not detached and that he is not just going through the motions, but those that have remained in touch with themselves? He still is an individual. The boots represent the person just wanting to survive/or are just in primal mode?

I think everyone's comments and ideas are fantastic. Really making me think. I missed the whole beds/Dr part! I was thinking they were just busy, now I see the whole picture.
And thanks for all your kind comments Elizabeth S and Bryan on Chapter One. It was not letting me post back. I guessed it was because the discussion for that chapter is now over?

I think Baumer is protecting his friends;what makes them human and/or he represents their humanity---and so him protecting the boots is a symbol of that?

Baumer does write the letter to Kemmerich's mom. I'm looking to see if we are told a reason why that is Baumer's responsibility. That is another one where I'm wondering why Baumer feels responsible to do it. Is Baumer just closer to Kemmerich, or is it that Baumer is more tenderhearted?

Autumn wrote: "And thanks for all your kind comments Elizabeth S and Bryan on Chapter One. It was not letting me post back. I guessed it was because the discussion for that chapter is now over? "

You should be able to post on Chapter 1 still. We leave all the threads open throughout the group read so people can catch-up anytime. Is it still not letting you post?

I think Kemmerick's mom tells Baumer to watch out for her son before they leave? Hmmm...I'll look it up.
About Chapter 1 let me try again today. I only tried a couple times for a day....Thank you for the feedback :)

Elizabeth S, it works! Sorry for the inconvenience. I'll have to think about what I wanted to say a couple days ago- probably a glitch in my computer at that time?

Good question Elizabeth. I am unsure.
I think Baumer feels responsible for others and that he observes people with a deep awareness of their inner selves- I don't know if I think it makes him more tenderhearted or just more in touch with his senses? I think he has a great sense of responsibility. Where does this come from?
In Chapter 1, pg 13, he is implored by Kemmerich's mother to look after her son. Baumer then describes Kemmerich as a child, " Indeed he did have the face of a child." It's almost as of he feels responsible for the lives of others', like he has taken on a parental role.
Baumer in Chapter 2 describes the feelings of responsibility, "I am wretched with helplessness." (pg.22)

Autumn wrote: "I think Kemmerick's mom tells Baumer to watch out for her son before they leave? Hmmm...I'll look it up.
About Chapter 1 let me try again today. I only tried a couple times for a day....Thank you f..."

You're right, his mom did ask Baumer to look after him. It is in Chapter 1 (page 15 in my copy). For some reason I got that mom attached to the wrong soldier. :)

I just noticed that you found it first. Good job. I think you are right that it is a combination of things. Baumer was asked by the mother, Baumer remembers Kemmerich as a child so they've been friends for a long time, and Baumer feels a need to watch out for others.

In the beginning of Chapter 2 we learn a little about what Baumer might have been doing if not for the war. He says, "At home in the drawer of my writing table there lies the beginning of a play called 'Saul' and a bundle of poems." That may explain some of why he feels things so deeply and why he thinks things through--he is a writer, a poet.

I wonder what 'Saul' is about? I wonder if we will get to look at a poem? I think you are right- it makes sense he is a writer/a poet.

Sarah wrote: "Kemmerich's death was very moving emotionally. Your point about being emotionally jerked is interesting and it may be true. I think it is an illustration of how a soldier has to compartmentalize ..."


I lead my reply off the note of Sarah but have read all.

I think it was no Himmelstoss that succeeded at training the boys/men but the system. It was mentioned that the other instructors were also tough - wanting to keep these jobs - but not as mean.
The later references to Band of Brothers - one of the Ambrose books I have not read


Stephen E. Ambrose

illustrates that the systems used in many militaries are comparable.

I think that Baumer stayer with Kemmerich because he was his friend - and at the end he took all his stuff and then just gave the boots to Mueller because it was just logical as he has asked for them.

I think that Baumer would feel that his writing a letter to Kemmerich's mother, he who knew her and her son for some time, was a friend obligation.

I htink it is also interesting that, except for Bryan and me, it seems so far that only women are following the discuusion here.

I had understood that in WWI the hospitals however were far behind the lines and a large percentage of the wounded who were transported died in transit. Maybe this is a special situation.

Vince wrote: "...I had understood that in WWI the hospitals however were far behind the lines and a large percentage of the wounded who were transported died in transit. Maybe this is a special situation."

I think Kemmerich's hospital is far behind the lines, at least by our standards today. Hence the reason his friends didn't go visit him until they were sent back from the front.

As far as the numbers of men verses women, I haven't been keeping track. But it sounds like the men need to speak up more. What do you think, men? :)

Sarah wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "Sarah wrote: "...Regarding the training. It seemed that alot of those exercises were pointless and caused unnecessary pain. It is interesting to me that after Baumer describes i..."

To me, "living" connotes "joy" of which "survival" is arguably a fairly "joyless" activity unless one survives perhaps.

Interesting that there are women than men discussing a war book - so much for stereotypes!

My thought is that Baumer has to be sympathetic and compassionate if he is going to be the one telling the story - otherwise, the reader would not be able to connect with a narrator who was heartless and unlikeable. Baumer's emotions become our emotions throughout this story, which is why I believe that it resonates so much with all of us.

Sera wrote: "My thought is that Baumer has to be sympathetic and compassionate if he is going to be the one telling the story - otherwise, the reader would not be able to connect with a narrator who was heartle..."

Well put, Sera. I think Remarque is striking a balance here. A story with a cold-hearted soldier, even one who used to be an innocent young man, would have too much machine-like feel, would have horror without sensitivity. A story with a Pollyanna soldier who fights a war with rose-colored glasses (those would have to be pretty thick glasses) would certainly not get the message across. So we have a soldier who thinks, who feels, and who is confused--just as we do and are--about war.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Baumer does write the letter to Kemmerich's mom. I'm looking to see if we are told a reason why that is Baumer's responsibility. That is another one where I'm wondering why Baumer feels responsib..."

I think the abruptness also caused me to really consider what the boots symbolize and may explain some of his motivation. Yes the boots are more practical and comfortable, and I think Remarque is showing the soldiers compartmentalization. But it also makes me reflect on the morbidity of Muller to find happiness in literally walking in their dead friends shoes. I thought the line "I feel a hunger, greater than comes from the belly alone". It seems that Baumer, perhaps more then the others, has a will to live past the war. He seems unable to completely accept living in the moment, otherwise why would he so willingly give Muller the boots? I think if he was completely able to compartmentalize he would keep the boots, but I think Remarque is also showing us by contrasting his reaction with Muller's that he hasn't given in to accepting that the war will never be over.

Wow, "literally walking in their dead friends shoes." I never thought of that, but it is true. And it is a morbid thought.