Christian Readers discussion
Is There Really a Rapture?
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Though I do appreciate your input, I cannot concur, even though many are turning in this direction since they are discouraged and are looking for a way out.Jews in the tribulation are told in Luke 12:36 about the bridegroom returning "from the wedding."the book written as the Son of Man and not pointing to King of the Jewish race.) to find if these "Jews" have endured.(Matthew: the book written as the KING OF the Jews")
Stay and fight, but somehow you will have to mutilate Jesus Christ's body to do so.
Oh how messed up Christians get when they do not follow the command to Rightly divide Scripture according to 2 timothy 2:15 which is written by the apostle to the Gentile Christians God told us to follow.
Hi Karen, I'm not sure I follow your comment, "even though many are turning in this direction since they are discouraged and are looking for a way out." Do you mean many are turning to the rapture because they are discouraged and are looking for a way out. If this is what you mean, I agree.
As for Luke 12:36, the parable starts in verse 22 and is addressed to His disciples who are Christians, not just Jews, and pertains to all "faithful and wise stewards" as stated in verse 41 and 42, not just Jews. Nowhere does it mention that this is before or during the tribulation. I believe in the wedding of the bride(church) and the groom(Jesus) but in Revelation 7:9 it shows a group of people so large they can't be numbered and in verse 14 it states they are people who accepted Jesus DURING the tribulation. Are they not invited to the wedding as Christians?
We may disagree on scripture, and I wish you the best, but I don't think telling someone how messed up they've divided the word or to "mutilate Jesus' body" are very Christian things to say.
Jerry,I, too, have always had a problem with rapture theology. Like you said, it is too clean. I did a study on Revelations with a group a couple years back and it seems so many people are stuck in "Left Behind" mode that there was little discussion. When I cracked a joke about the witnesses being some Hollywood types, I was immediately shushed. Thank you for your synopsis. I think it is good to question some of the standard understandings of prophecies because if we become too locked into a certain thinking we will be much like the Pharisees and miss the event when it is happening.
K wrote: "Jerry,I, too, have always had a problem with rapture theology. Like you said, it is too clean. I did a study on Revelations with a group a couple years back and it seems so many people are stuc..."
Thank you K,
It's so refreshing to see a Christian that has an open mind to learning and discussing the scriptures. I actually thought your joke about the two witnesses was pretty funny. You're so right, when we become locked into thinking we have learned it all, we stop learning. Keep up the good fight.
What I meant since Jesus has not come many are thinking pre trib is wrong and turning to having to go through the tribulation.May not be you. As far as mutilating Jesus body, you state that is not Christian. Someone that believes they will endure until the end such as you-of which you will not make it making God a liar since you are dammed by taking the mark and the church cannot lose salvation, but tribulations saints can-are the ones talking even if they do not say it in such words of mutilating his body. that is the no "catching away" crowd if you are cast in hell for taking the mark Jesus Christ has taken off apiece of his body. All through Corinthians of being members of his body. dispensations and Rightly dividing are commanded by God to be approved by him. 2 Timothy 2:15 You are saying Jesus Christ lied? Also pharisees could not discern the times and seasons either.
I am sorry if what I wrote is hard to understand. Peter said what Paul wrote was hard to be understood by many also and I think faster than I can type plainly. I do apologize for this. That is why I sent the message I did.He writing is laid out more clearly.
Why do we have so many different views concerning Biblical issues? And these views are derived from reading and studying the same Bible. A good book to read is "Ultimate Intentions" by DeVern Fromke. The methodologies used today to study God's Word are manmade or human made. With the advances in understanding the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages, along with the use of Textual, Historical, and Archeological analysis we have a glut of Biblical knowledge.
Knowledge has increased exponentially but knowledge always increases faster than wisdom. Here in lies the problem and the reason that there are over ten thousand different denominations and interpretations.
God's Word can only be discerned by the spiritual. The natural man or woman is incapable of understanding the mysteries of the kingdom that have been hidden from the beginning when the foundations of creation were laid.
God said that if anyone wants to understand His truths He would give abundantly, and all we have to do is go to Him.
Read the book, "Seeking Wisdom From God: A Quest For Truth." by Thomas H Walker. There is a chapter called "The Parable of The Ten Virgins", as well as a chapter called "The Wedding Garment". This will present the rapture in a brand new light. Is it truth?? You can decide.
Jerry wrote: "A vast majority of Christians believe Jesus will secretly come and remove the church from earth before the Antichrist and tribulation period in whats called the rapture. Is there any scriptural doc..."Most of your scripture verses come from what Paul said and according to the King James Bible of 1611 he was a false prophet. St John 5:43 and Isaiah 14:13-14
St Matthew 14:2-3 ---I (Jesus) go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 25:34 ---come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
St Matthew 26: 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Why waste your time about the rapture it will happen and the 29th verse explains that the sacraments are a waste of time.
What have we learned: Paul was phoney, the rapture will come, and the sacraments are a waste of time.
Thomas your answer was eloquent and thoughtful from my viewpoint.
Thank you Karen. You have a sweet spirit that comes through in your writing.
Jerry wrote: "A vast majority of Christians believe Jesus will secretly come and remove the church from earth before the Antichrist and tribulation period in whats called the rapture. Is there any scriptural doc..."“God has used different men and movements – not to corner truth but to recover and herald truth to the upbuilding of the entire body of Christ. Every major awakening has centered in a major recovery of a truth
necessary to mature and balance other aspects of truth” (Fromke, 9).
“If you, like many, have been accustomed to using the microscopic method of Bible study, which scrutinizes every detail and phrase in order to understand the will and purpose of God, may God help you to shift gears!” (15). Mr. Fromke further comments that “It is my conviction that we have too long been involved with a method which centers attention on immediate details without reference first to the larger scope of God’s purpose” (15).
“Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.” A master teacher usually never gives the answers directly to the
student, because this would limit their ability to learn. Instead, the teacher will instruct the student on how to find the answers. The student’s ability
to learn is now limitless.
Jesus and His Father are master teachers. Many Christians today recognize God as a teacher, but not His teaching method. This lack of understanding is the reason that most Christians can only learn from what God has “spelled out” in His Word. For these Christians, discernment of God’s truths depends heavily on it being written in plain English.
Thomas: There are a lot of verses that are written down that couldn't get any more plain for discernment. Not every verse or word is a parable and it is for this reason that when the Gospels of St John, Matthew, and Mark are in plain english people don't believe what the are reading or don't what to believe. What is complicated about these verses?
St John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: (Jesus) If another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (Paul) Paul is the devils advocate Isaiah 14;13-14 44 How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only? (Sense Billy Graham started preaching most preachers try and emulate him.)
St Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; (No, god that is not the way you do it: Aunt Milley is going to pay for my divinity college degree so she will have a spot in the kingdom of God when I'm established in a big church with a lot of money coming in.)
St Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and defile the man. (which one has the better chance of being saved the guy setting on a bar stool or a preacher preaching three times a week a false doctrain in your church. A parable: What does born again and receiving the Holy Ghost mean Ezekiel 36: 26-25-27
The rapture is a fun bit of thought. Is it clear in the Bible? Not really. Is the trinity clear in the Bible? Many people would say no. But the trinity is definitely the only game of truth. (Jesus is God - get over it!)The challenge to understanding the Rapture is looking at the whole endtimes account. Not all of Revelation is necessarily in order. We do get fascinating chunks of information.
I'm glad Chuck Swindoll and John MacArthur are in favor of the Rapture. They both have lots of Biblical information to back this up.
The trick is to be very careful how you read the Bible.
1) notice how the Christian Church functions in the tribulation? They really don't.
We are living under the fourth beast in daniel's vision. The beginning phase of this fourth gentile kingdom (beast) was Rome. Unlike Babylon, Media-Persia, and Greece, this fourth kingdom is unlike any seen in Daniels lifetime. It should be called the Empire of Imperialism because that is what differentiated it from the previous government types of the first three kingdoms or beasts. That said, there is also the colossal man that Nebuchadnezzar in visioned and we are now in the two division stage represented by neb's two legs of iron. I'm bringing this out because it doesn't really matter if you agree on the pre trib rapture because the world will soon receive another "birth pang" and it will either be the rapture or the Magog invasion of Israel of Ezekiel 38. When this invasion happens we are told that the attacking gentile armies are completely broken, thus breaking the fourth beast from its two legged or division stage into a one world government. Out of this comes the ten division stage - the ten toes and from one of the toes arises anti Christ
The verse I like is St Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. That generally sumes up that the sacrament, done on this earth is a waist of time and there will be a rapture of those that are saved.
Just kidding Mickey, I don't have a problem with the meeting The Lord in the air
Rapture catching up... Call it what you want, you still can't have two second comings
Does he appear and meet the saints in the air? Clearly yes. Does he come down to earth and destroy the armies of the antichrist? Yes
Is this event simultaneous? Because it has to be otherwise one is a rapture before the wrath if God and the other the second coming.
Rapture catching up... Call it what you want, you still can't have two second comings
Does he appear and meet the saints in the air? Clearly yes. Does he come down to earth and destroy the armies of the antichrist? Yes
Is this event simultaneous? Because it has to be otherwise one is a rapture before the wrath if God and the other the second coming.
We can be presbyterian brethren or baptist brethren or Pentecostal but there is one type we are commanded by Paul to not be:
IGNORANT BRETHREN
Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; (Romans 11:20, 25 ASV)
IGNORANT BRETHREN
Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; (Romans 11:20, 25 ASV)
Isn't the Day of The Lord clearly taught as a time for Israel's cleansing by fire? Isn't the tribulation the NT term for the OT writers concerning this seven year period? And if we see ourselves as "partakers" and not "overtakers" in God's economy, can't we easily see the church as having fulfilled its role on earth to be removed for the purposes of the OT prophecies concerning Israel's national salvation? I can.
21 Which church has fulfilled there role? I don't go to any of the thousands of churches and religious organizations, tell me the true church and I will go there next Sunday. Even Paul's people around him thought he was nutts. I just confirm what they thought.
For an event as huge as the rapture, you would think it would be clearly spelled out in the Bible but it isn't. The word "rapture" appears no where in the biblical manuscripts. Its first appearance comes in the Catholic Latin Vulgate version of the Bible in the late 4th century where the word inserted is "rapiemur" meaning "we shall be raptured" or "we shall be caught up." The word used in the original Greek manuscripts is "harpazo" meaning "to seize."
The rapture theory isn't taught,nor becomes a widely held belief, until after 1830 when a woman named Margaret McDonald has a vision while being bed ridden with sickness. Robert Norton M.D. was an eyewitness to this event and wrote two books in which he states it was the first time anyone split the second coming into two stages.
A few months later a man named John Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism, would begin popularizing the doctrine starting with an issue of The Morning Watch. In the book, The Incredible Cover-Up by Dave MacPherson, he states "Since Margaret MacDonald was the first person to teach a coming of Christ that would precede the days of Antichrist, it necessarily follows that Darby-back to whom pre-tribism can easily be traced-was at least second or third or even farther on down the line. To date no solid evidence has been found that proves that anyone other than this young Scottish lassie was the first person to teach a future coming of Christ before the days of Antichrist. Before 1830 Christians had always believed in a single future coming..."
One of the most used scriptures to back the rapture theory is I Thessalonians 4:16 & 17, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Another scripture most commonly used is I Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Let's take a look at these two verses and see what they tell us. First note the timing given in I Corinthians, it's at the last trumpet, the same trumpet in I Thessalonians. We know from Revelation 10:7 and 11:15 that it's all over at the seventh and last trumpet and "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ;" If you continue reading in I Thessalonians, you'll see chapter 5 is a continuation of thought with the word "But" and the time frame given in verse 2 is "the day of the Lord..." No pre-trib here. Notice also in I Thessalonians that Jesus is descending to earth. Those of us that are alive will be "caught up", or our souls "seized" as the Greek word harpazo means, but only to join the dead with Jesus as He descends to earth. The "air" that we are meeting the Lord in is not the same air that birds fly in, ouranos, but the Greek word, aer, meaning breath of life or spirit. At the seventh and last trumpet, we who remain alive will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and meet the Lord in our spiritual bodies to join the dead who are already with Him to establish God's kingdom on earth and so shall we ever be... with the Lord, not raptured.
We get further scriptural documentation that Jesus doesn't return until after Satan, who arrives in the fifth trumpet as stated in Revelation 9:1, by reading II Thessalonians 2:3, "Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." The "son of perdition" is Satan and Jesus plainly tells you here not to be deceived. The day of the Lord and His return will not come until after Satan is revealed as He states again starting in verse 9, "Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
We see this stated again starting in Mark 13:24, "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," Verse 26, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."
Another group of scriptures generally used for the rapture are those with the "one taken" and the "one left" in Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17. In Matthew it states that there are two people in a field and two women grinding. One is taken and one is left behind. In Luke it's two men in bed, two women grinding, and two men in a field. In each case one is taken and one is left behind. Most assume this is the Lord doing the taking but nothing could be farther from the truth.
In classical Greek, once the subject and object are established in a chapter they aren't changed. In the cases of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17:20, the subject is the end times and the object is false christs. Any action taken in these subjects is done by the object, the Antichrist. Jesus compares these events in Matthew 24:37-39 to Noah's day when the flood removed the corrupted, "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;"
Jesus even shows concern for the ones left behind, not the ones taken, starting in Luke 17:31, "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back."
In Luke 17:37 the disciples even ask Jesus where the ones taken went. His response is, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." As stated in The Companion Bible, the word "eagles" should have been translated "vultures", as in hovering over the spiritually dead, both in this verse and in Matthew 24:28 where Jesus even uses the word carcass to make His point, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."
The one doing the taking is the Antichrist, not Jesus. I believe this is the big lie spoken of in I Thessalonians when Jesus states that He comes after Satan and in verse 2:10, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" Falling for the Antichrist and not knowing when the real Christ arrives may cost you your soul.
As opposed to telling us that we will all be raptured out without a scratch or to be tested, Jesus is constantly telling us to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13 or 10:22, "...but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand", Ephesians 6:13. "...if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" Hebrews 3:6. "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" Hebrews 3:14.
This all brings us to an interesting point brought up by Brian Hennessy in an article he wrote for The Jerusalem Post in June of 2010. We, as Christians, pour out our undying support for Israel but as Mr. Hennessy states, "Are we just going to be happy-clappy cheerleaders for Israel as long as the skies are sunny, but when dark clouds come will we start looking for the Rapture bus to get us out of here, fast? If we are going to be solidly in Israels corner as we promised, we cant also be planning an early exit. Their fight is our fight."
The early Christians endured Romans, gladiators, and even lions. Why should we think that when it hits the proverbial fan that we get the first flight out of here according to the rapture theory. Jesus wants to find us defending the faith and fighting for the kingdom until He returns. I believe the scriptures spell this out very clearly unlike the twisting needed to defend a very murky, two stage rapture theory. I think Ill stay and fight.