SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Thought we might get the discussion off to a start with a question about why most consider Dune a "must read" for anyone serious about SF.

Any ideas?

Yes, but I've already said them:

My review of Dune

Or briefly, if you don't want to read that:

a) Well done illusion of superhuman intelligence on the part of the characters.
b) Well realized and unique setting.
c) Beautifully drawn complex relationships between Paul and the supporting cast.
d) Great action adventure story.

Matt, as always, you are so eloquent. I'm speechless. :)

You summed up, in a nutshell, what makes Dune a superb masterpiece.

Matt, your review is excellent & hard to add to - but I'm going to try a little.

I read a lot of SF as a kid & much of it was 'Campbellian' SF. I also like Spillane's 'kick butt' writing. Not great writing, but lots of action. Heinlein & Asimov were much better writers & I loved the futuristic settings, but not gory enough. I also liked Sword & Sorcery, such as Howard's Conan stories. I'd also read MacBeth & really liked it.

Then I read "Dune". It had the best of the elements of them all rolled into one great package. He also didn't spell out every detail & left a lot to the imagination. I think what Matt says about the illusion of superhuman intelligence is a great example. The technology is another.

What made Dune great for me - the obvious comparisons to the Opec countries that are mostly middle eastern, desert, religious, practice jihad, etc... Oil is spice... The way the story predicted the oil crisis - which we are once again encountering. I especially enjoyed the use of stillsuits to conserve water as well as water condensers across the desert that slowly saved up water in underground cisterns - we may encounter this same extreme need for water conservation if the world continues to heat up - conversely in the later books the occupants of Arrakis were able to reverse their world's dryness and "terraform" it into a wetter world. The author spoke with authority and obviously was interested in the future potential of technologies that other authors hadn't even contemplated. The closest thing to Herbert explanation of the planetary environment that I have read is the Red/Green/Blue Mars trilogy.

Herbert took great pains to demonstrate what it takes to live on this planet.

Most other great sci-fi space operas take place on a huge "stage" of empires, where the action takes place over huge distances in galatic space battles.

Herbert was different.
So much detail in explaining the use and recyling of precious resources and the small niche occupied by human beings in a place not really suited for most people.

What I find significant about his writing is that he really stresses the enviroment at a time (1967) when there still wasnt much of an awareness of our own ecology or our impact on the planet.

I read somewhere that people (in the 1960's)kept asking him if he was starting his own religion or movement?

one thing that stands out for me is the operatic scale of the story. the foreshadowing of jihad. the worms, the grand scale of the desert (if only it were dessert). I like that sort of epic story, it pulls you in and creates a perfect escape. although I don't think the story lines are similar, in some way Dune reminds me of the epic proportions of Moby Dick and how you can really feel like you're there w/ the characters. if anything, the large scale destruction that's hinted at kind of scares me b/c then I have to question, why am I pulled so strongly along w/ what suggests to be an awful fate? am I just being macabre?

Oh, there were many elements to DUNE that appealed to me, and in my opinion, gives it "Classic" status.

Herbert's sense of an inner world -- the struggles of Paul to see within, the prophesy, his own evolution into a higher being of sorts, yet with a firm grasp on reality.

The backstory is both richly textured and integral to the plot. You truly get a sense of a galactic society existing on the fringes of the plot, with an ancient history. I love that sense of connection between the past and the present in DUNE.

The Butlerian AntiTechnology Jihad isn't explained at any great length except as footnotes and hints in DUNE, but the way it impacts the milieu of DUNE is quite unique.

As noted in the previous comments, the focus on a planetary wide ecology-- that small efforts, over many many years, could change the face of the planet, that was a great plot element.

The incredible dances that the Great Houses take-- how the rivalries are all interwoven, the relentless hatred of Harkonnen for Atreides, these all added flavor.

Paul's character is the centerpiece, the glue that holds the story together. He is brlliantly realized, going from self-doubt and second guessing to a full grown leader of a jihad that will sweep the galaxy.

In short, there are a lot of elements coming together to make an excellent read, and yes, a classic of the genre. A pity I can't say that for the rest of the novels, or the follow ups by Anderson and Brian Herbert.

The sheer scope of the worldbuilding and setting, I think are what most people state are the reasons for its placement in the pantheon

It's fun to read, but it also rewards contemplation.

Well, that's the argument for why it should be a classic. But is it really a classic?

But is it really a classic?

I think it is.

It transcends time. Even though I knew I was reading the 40th anniversary edition, it didn't feel dated one bit. It's relevant and modern and holds up perfectly over almost a half-century.

"But is it really a classic?"

To my knoweldge, no one is ever made to read Dune as part of their education. And Dune is now well passed the point where we could call it a fad. Yet of books that are neither recent fads nor things that you are forced to read, you would be hard pressed to find many novels which have been willingly read by more people.

That suggests to me that its going to be remembered for a long time.

Dune a classic?

Of course. I think the style and theme has been covered enough in this post, but just looking at Dune's popularity can answer that question. Just a few cultural influences off the top of my head- It has been the basis of two movies (one a cult classic, the other a TV movie stinker), quoted in a Fatboy Slim song (Weapon of Choice), referenced in a SNL sketch (Will Farrell as G W Bush claims he has to get ready for a meeting with the Freemen), and, although uncredited, inspired Star Wars. (Lets be honest)

What absolutely confirms classic status for me however, is the fact that my step-sister's name is Alia.
Enough said.

I have read and reread it. There's nothing like it. Some authors seem to put their own stamp on a work and Herbert did on Dune.

I loved the scope of the main planet: from the recycling and mythology through the politics, culture and religion of the inhabitants.

I loved how the prophecy of the indiginous population mixed in with the prophesy of another religion. I loved how one substance, Spice, brougt all the elements together; political, prophetic and the empowerment of the main character.

I loved the adventurous coming of age scene where he rode the worm, as well as the warring, political and technological elements of the story.

The characters were great, but the planet itself was written into the story as if it were a character, and it was the best character in the book.

I suppose the very fact that this book has become so iconic, is what made the movie so very disappointing when in came out in 1984.

"I suppose the very fact that this book has become so iconic, is what made the movie so very disappointing when in came out in 1984."

Well, I could say the same thing about the recent trilogy of 'Lord of the Rings' movies, but I admit - as much as those movies annoyed me - that they were done much more respectfully than the way Hollywood generally handles a classic of speculative fiction. Dune was terrible, but so was Minority Report, Starship Troopers, and I, Robot.

When will Hollywood ever learn that if these things are so well loved, they probably can't tell the story better than the original?

I still think we are a good ways from getting really good fantasy/sci fi movies. Hollywood's hubris is getting too much in the way.

"Respect" is the key word in Matt's statement.

Lynch's version of Dune was so campy and laughable, it seems he was thumbing his nose at all the lovers of "DUNE"


HBO did a TV version of DUNE recently.
It was much more respectful of the book and storyline.

I actually like the TV mini-series ... they seemed to take the time to do things much better then the movie. I still need to watch the sequel (Children of Dune).

It's not a classic in the "It was written a hundred years ago and the ancient prose no one can read without falling asleep means it's good." sense. (Henry James, call your office).

It's a classic because, as others have said, there are so many subtle references to it in current popular culture. Here's one a coworker showed me:

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of the bean that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains. The stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."

which was someone's email signature.

I laughed because it was so easy to picture Brad Dourif chanting that while drinking an espresso.

Amen

To me, a classic is a book that stands the test of time, that can still relate to people today. Don Quixote was written almost four hundred years ago and I still love it, I still find new things to enjoy with every re-read. It's the same way I feel about Dune. Re-reading it I'm seeing so much more into Paul's character, into the politics of the Houses.

....guided by the Mentat's Marvellous Memory!! Miles Teg!!....The Honoured Matres are hot and deadly... i think....

I liked both Dune versions. The movie was criticized as confusing, but for me, who had read the book multiple times, I thought it great.

I agree the Children of Dune of the miniseries was the better of the 2 parts. James McAvoy is a favorite younger actor of mine. I liked Alec Newman better in Star Trek Enterprise ...