Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy discussion

I really hope this topic isn't too adult. But there is something that bothers me in PNR sometimes (and in romance in general) and I am wondering if any of you share my thoughts.

I notice that many PNR series I have read have heroines that are virgins. I actually don't mind this and even find it to make the sex scenes even more steamy sometimes.

However, I always find it to be very annoying at how unrealistic it is in most books. Even though the heroine is totally virgin, she immensely enjoys the act of sex and even orgasms several times. I find this totally silly especially since most women will tell you their first time (or even first few times) were not great at all.
Even if there is pain, it's not long lasting and the pain goes away fast and the lady has the time of her life. I know books are meant to be fantasy but sometimes realism in some series makes it better. Making the act progressively better between them also seems to make the bond between the couple more appealing, IMO.

Of course, this doesn't stop me from reading them! Lots of authors I read and like are guilty of this, like Gena Showalter, Nalini Singh, Larissa Ione, and Lucy Monroe.

It would be refreshing to find a series that is a little more realistic in this aspect. I find that it would be something different and fun to read about.

Anyone know PNR authors that have this?
I heard JR Ward's BDB series has a story like this. It's in my backlog, though. That never stops me from buying more, LOL!

Thoughts? Comments?

I feel the same way. I'm always waiting for the heroine to scream in agonizing pain, slap her lover away, and say "SLOW! Go slow, dammit!" lol

McKenzie wrote: "I really hope this topic isn't too adult. But there is something that bothers me in PNR sometimes (and in romance in general) and I am wondering if any of you share my thoughts.

I notice that many..."

Great topic!

The book in the BDB series that addresses the "first time" well IMO is Lover Revealed. Great scene and the most realistic that I've read in PNR.

Ha! If you want gritty reality your reading the wrong genre. Let's face it. The first few times for most women and men is more stress and fumbling than romance and ecstasy. Writing is much like reading (in my limited experience). It's more interesting to imagine how you wish things were than how they really are. I'm sure most girls would like to imagine their first time as romantic and pleasurable (even if they are practical enough to know better). For us guy's; well we mostly just can't wait and are more concerned with visual, stamina and performance issues to have a thought to spare for romance. There are plenty of contemporary authors and writers of gritty literature who handle those stories. That's just a generalisation of course. I'm sure some authors in PNR and other Romance sub-genres have addressed the issue more realistically if less romantically.

Okay...first of all, not all women experience excruciating pain their first time. At the risk of TMI...hand up. Many of us write what we know. If the author didn't encounter it, why expect her to write it?

Beyond that, I do have some virginal heroines that experience pain their first times, because I am familiar with the fact that it happens to some women. With my Night Warriors females, they have accelerated healing and are gods-chosen for their mates, so they have pain, but it passes quickly, as their healing takes over for them.

With one of my heroines (Amber/Cinder in Bride Ball), she doesn't even finish the first time, because it's so painful. She doesn't just tell him to slow. She flat-out tells him to stop. Considering the culture she comes from, she thinks the guy isn't going to want anything to do with her, because it was so disastrous. Good thing he's not the usual guy from her world, huh?

Worse, in my Kegin series, there is a slim chance (due to their crossbred human-Keen physiology) of asphyxiation during the first sexual encounter, and if they have breathing problems once, there is a slim chance of it repeating with every encounter after that. Crossbred females typically lose their virginity with a medical professional nearby to avoid such outcomes. Still, I have two heroines in that series so far that have problems their first time.

Brenna

I think sometimes authors go too much one way or too much in the other direction. Sometimes your first time isn't amazing, nor is it horrible. How about a heroine who talks with her girlfriends the next day and say "I really don't know what the fuss is about".

Personally I like to see a variety of experiences from an author, not just one type. Diana Palmer (not pnr I know) was always really extreme in her deflowering scenes - they were always extremely painful, traumatic and often required surgery before the female could go ahead. A pattern like that gives you too much info about an author. I haven't read anything of hers in ages so hopeful her heroines these days are having a better time of it.

However, in PNR I think that the heroines lack of experience is often used to show their acceptance/non-acceptance of the world and what is happening around them. Their inexperience in sexual matters is used to illustrate their naivety and innocence in general. Often, the way the author writes the first time is used as an indicator of where the heroine is at in her sub-concious acceptance of whats happening in the broader plot line.

Fumbling or painful first times are rare in romance books. I remember only one time, in a Lisa Kleypas book (Poppy's book in the Hathaway series) that the first time was painful for the heroine.

I have read a few books where the hero was nervous because it was the heroine's first time.

These happen mainly in historicals, of which I read a lot.

This unrealistic trope bothered me the first few times I read virgin heroines, but now I just shrug it off.

I agree with most of you. Karen Moning's Highlander series is like that. I think every woman was a virgin except for one. There were I think 6 books. I started to get a little peaved by the 3 book but Moning is such a wonderful writer that I just overlooked. Maybe the writers feel we will enjoy the book more. I really don't care, virgin or nonvirgin.

I don't think I've encountered that many virginal heroïnes in PNR, bu theirs loads of them in Romance in general, and the devirginization is almost never handled believably imo. Butt I have to admit I find that mostly it's over the top in the direction of painful first times instead of too easy first times.

The whole mythical hymen tearing bugs me to no end, and with all the screaming and the blood, sometimes it reads as if they're going to the slaughterhouse instead of having some good time. And then of course the magic romancelandia orgasm kicks in and everything is good.

As someone else said, romance is fantasy, so i's only natural that all romance couples have amazing orgasms all the time, whether it's the first time or not.

I wouldn't mind sexual encounters where not everybody gets off, where not all magical spots are hit on the first time, and where someone's first time is a bit awkward, without all the extremes, both in the pain and in the pleasure departement.

In historical romance I would expect to find virginal heroines unless the heroine in question is a widow or a courtesan (and virginal widows? Oh, please.). Virginity (actual or faked) before marriage would have been accurate for the time. I don't know if virginity in PNR is just following an accepted "trend" or is used as part of character development. I have no problem with heroines who aren't virgins. Heaven knows, Shelly Laurenston's women aren't virginal; and I like all of them. There's a chapter about this in
. That book is a lot of fun.

I think the idea behind all of these virgins enjoying their first times so much is to emphasize the hero's prowess in the bedroom. He's so good that even the inexperienced virgin forgets the discomfort.

Lauren wrote: "I think the idea behind all of these virgins enjoying their first times so much is to emphasize the hero's prowess in the bedroom. He's so good that even the inexperienced virgin forgets the discom..."


I do agree with this and I think that's probably one of the reasons virgins are used.

This is probably TMI, but it hurt badly when mine was taken but it wasn't excruciating like I have heard some girls say it is. No screaming or anything like that, but there was lots of cringing. It was dreaded but not as bad as expected.

Perhaps I find the idea of a hero being compassionate and concerned during the heroine's first time to be sweet and sexy in its own way.

Like I said, I do know books are fantasy and most people want dang hot sex scenes. But I like some variety to spice it up.

And I agree with those of you who want a medium. Virgins with amazing first times can be way overdone. Like, the guy basically just kisses her and she orgasms many times. Pretty unlikely.
But horrific first times are overblown (unless it was made to be traumatic for story purposes). I haven't actually read a book that has a virgin with a really painful first time but I am not actually wanting to read something bloody and horrible. Being very nervous the first time and having pain is common. But I don't want the heroine to act like someone is skinning her alive during the love scenes.

Thanks for all the interesting responses, everyone!

I have a real problem with virginity in contemporary romance books as a whole, but I can kind of accept it if the author builds enough backstory around it. A case in point is Nalini Singh's psy/chlng series, where the Psy females come from a world where there's no touch involved, so clearly they're virgins (I think they all are, from memory). Equally, the female changelings come from a more physical world, so the changeling women aren't. If it makes sense it's fine.

But like you, McKenzie, the hymen removal ritual in PNR does irk me. I can accept that some women don't experience pain the first time, but I can't accept the scenario where not only is it deflowerment time, it's also sex with a man with an (always) enormous penis, she's ready to go after the first few seconds of 'discomfort', and then, yay, multiple orgasm time. There's a fine line between using the leeway the romance genre gives you, and giving your readers chronic eyeroll.

I applaud writers like Brenna who actually incorporate pain into the first-time scenario, I think if I came across a book where the female protag finds it painful and uncomfortable I'd be (weirdly) full of hurrahs. Because, come ON, sex can be uncomfortable and painful and awkward and I want authors to respect that sometimes. If there is one woman reading this that has always experienced flawless, consistently orgasmic sex that never needs to be worked on, I salute you and any tips you can throw my way would be swell.

@Jan: what books have you read that have OTT devirginisation scenes? I've never encountered one in PNR.

I actually wasn't bothered by the virgin thing, I like that in a PNR.

To address the JR Ward comment, it was with Marissa and Butch in Lover Revealed I think (orange cover). Marissa is an aristocrat and obviously a virgin. Butch is careful but they still must stop. It was realistic but not oh my goodness really? over exaggerated. Only one i believe I have come across though.

Moss wrote: @Jan: what books have you read that have OTT devirginisation scenes? I've never encountered one in PNR.

That was a statement more of romance books in general (lots of old harlequins I read some years ago for instance), not so much PNR.

Went over my books to check for it, but non rang a bell that it was definitely a book that had a scene like that, so maybe it's a residual feeling instead of a current one.

I have noticed that even in non PNR books. It seems like most authors do this. Also I notice many times even after just losing her virginity, instead of being sore she is willing to have sex multiple times right after.

after just losing her virginity, instead of being sore she is willing to have sex multiple time..."

Yeah, that irks me. I know it's fantasy and all, but...a little realism isn't a bad thing.

I find the virginity thing a bit unrealistic. It is used too often IMO. I think it would be really interesting to make it really rubbish the first time lol. But at the same time, the tension between them has been building since the start of the book so it might be a bit of a let down for the reader. I can't say really, since no one has done it in any books I've read so far.

I don't mind the lack of pain since it didn't hurt for me at all and a lot of the time the guy slows down and asks if she is ok and then she is the one to pick up the pace. I do object to her immediately liking it though, as you say. It is unrealistic but so are the PNR men! Apart from the fact that they are paranormal (dur) they are totally unrealistic models for the perfect man. No one is ever going to compare in reality. Which means that anything they do is unrealistic and idealised so it makes sense for them to be so unbelievably mind-blowing in the sac that they can make first time sex that good.

I would really like to see someone play with this though and make it a bit more realistic as if they don't really know what they're doing or it takes them a while to get used to it or something. Or at least deal with the discomfort afterwards! I hope someone does explore this.

Probably more than this, I take objection with the fact that they are always so freaking understanding. Why are the guys always so desperate to fight off the girl that is throwing herself at him? They are completely head over heels in love, they would die for each other, she wants him but he is the one that wants to wait. On what planet does that happen?

On what planet does that happen?

Indeed. LOL

It doesn't bother me much that a virgin in a PR novel enjoys her first sexual experience with orgasm(s) and such. And it does make a sex scene special when a woman is revealed for the first time to an immortal male. I mean, I bet the male is just thrilled and smiling with pride that his woman is untouched and saved just for him. It also just means the guy is THAT GOOD in bed. :) I mean, it's fiction, so it definitely doesn't bother me. I still do keep in mind as I read sex scenes that it happens VERY LITTLE in the real world from many women's experiences.
Again, it's fiction. I enjoy it for the way things are.

Jeanine wrote: "I feel the same way. I'm always waiting for the heroine to scream in agonizing pain, slap her lover away, and say "SLOW! Go slow, dammit!" lol"

tottaly agree with that it never happens!!!!!!!!Whish it would though it would be so funny

I read this stuff because it's good fantasy. But for sure some things stand out. I love the multiorgasmic 1st times. What seems odd to me is how fast she is to not only perform oral sex on him, but also to totally enjoy it. That's kind of an aquired taste..so to speak.

I've noticed that in these books too! I like how Kenyon handles it in the DH books. She has the man bring the female to orgasm first without penetration so "loosen her up" before the males attempt entry. She brings up Acheron doing this when he was a sex slave so he wasn't beaten for hurting the virgins brought to him. It was a different way to handle it. I do however wonder if this method works irl.

What gets me more is how orgasmic these women are! These men in some of the books barely do anything and they have 3 or 4 mind blowing orgasms! Must be nice to have a guy so attuned to your body. Guess that is what makes it fantasy!

Alice wrote: "I read this stuff because it's good fantasy. But for sure some things stand out. I love the multiorgasmic 1st times. What seems odd to me is how fast she is to not only perform oral sex on him, but..."

I agree, Alice. To me, it is all about the fantasy. However, I do think of the responses and reaction from the women in some of these books, especially when the male is rather large. She looks at it in fright. It hurts to go in and yet in a few minutes, she forgets the pain and is thrown into orgasmic bliss, repeatedly. Also, she is willing to try anything. Let's just say that most people aren't jumping out of the box after their first time. But its all good in the fantasy world.

Melissa wrote: "What gets me more is how orgasmic these women are! These men in some of the books barely do anything and they have 3 or 4 mind blowing orgasms! ..."

It is amazing isn't it!
I'm reading Lover Unleashed. It will be interesting to see how JR handles Payne's first time.

Regarding PNR, writing about a woman losing her virginity is difficult, I'd say nearly impossible, to pull off when your aim is total bliss. I agree with many of you, that describing the first time as multi-orgasmic is a bit ridiculous when you think in realistic terms. Unless the male is like Larissa Ions Demons, where their seed is some kind of magical balm that causes orgasm on contact, then it's hard to believe, even in a fantasy.

Jeanine wrote: "I feel the same way. I'm always waiting for the heroine to scream in agonizing pain, slap her lover away, and say "SLOW! Go slow, dammit!" lol"

I'm pretty sure that in BDB something like this happens. It is either in Paynes story or in Butch and Marissa's.

I'd have to agree with some of these comments that the first time is not the same for every female. I know for some it's incredibly painful, lots of blood, for others they barely notice(and are damn lucky).
When one of my characters is a virgin, and I hadn't given it much thought until I read your post, but I tend to have it more on the painful, this-is-really-no-fun side for the first time, but I do that without all the drama.
If I'm reading something and the lead female is a virgin whose first time turns into orgasmic bliss right off the bat I do tend to roll my eyes. Again, I know everyone's first time is different, but I've never heard anyone tell me it felt great from the start.

The first time might not be the same for everyone, but I believe that it is painful to some degree for the majority of women. What evolutionary purpose does a hymen serve, anyways??

I like the virginity stuff alright in historical romance (though share the skepticism or multiple orgasms that seem to happen *every time* a woman id deflowered in that genre). I just think that statistically, it is unlikely that all the heroines got off so well on their first night in the sack.

One thing I do think about with regards to romance, particularly contemporary and PNR, is the message it sends to young girls. I never read romance as a kid, so it had no role in shaping my perspective on sex and relationships, but there can be some subtle messaging there. I just don't want to see teen girls be given bad information about sexuality. Having a sex drive is perfectly natural and girls shouldn't feel bad about it. Shaming girls about virginity and sex can happen even when it isn't intended. I blame abstinence-only sex education.

I would personally appreciate honesty in any book. The fact is, for most girls, it is painful... however, this doesn't mean it cannot be romantic. Because mine was as painful as it was romantic ;)

From what I've read (I didn't read everyone's post), it seems that people are equating virgin with pain. I think that there are plenty of authors that describe how the hero takes the time to see to the heroine's pleasure. I tend to think of Lora Leigh's Breed series, where the men seem to be so very well endowed and the women love it. But the men are also genetically enhanced with special sexing sauce (my terminology) in their saliva that turns the women on as well as prepare the women's bodies for the guy's equipment. Also at the risk of TMI, I think that if you are turned on (really turned on) sex doesn't have to be a crapload of pain the first time. I wouldn't say that it's painless but you can enjoy through pain. So yes there are definitely extremes within romance novels on the whole. I like my fantasy of really hot intense sex, but I also read mostly erotica or paranormal erotic romances so if sex is painful then it really ruins the story.

A majority of the romance novels I have read tend to down play the discomfort that one encounters during the first sexual experience, it's like;

Heroine cringe "That hurts."

Hero "I'll stop and let you adjust."(To my large penis)

5 seconds later Heroine "I'm okay lets keeping on going."
(Climax)

Even with that said I still manage to enjoy reading romance novels like Kresley Cole's series, and Lisa Kleypas books, I just wish they where more realistic. Although I did find that a couple of Catherine Coulter's books did have somewhat more of a realistic feel to it when it came to deflowering virgins.

Dominique wrote: "A majority of the romance novels I have read tend to down play the discomfort that one encounters during the first sexual experience, it's like;

Heroine cringe "That hurts."

Hero "I'll stop and..."

Wow, that was so accurate. LOL That's exactly what they're like.
I've often commented on the virgin thing too, but the one that really bothers me is when the virgin is almost 30 years old. Come on? Now adays you're lucky if you find an 18 year old virgin.

P.A. wrote: "Dominique wrote: "A majority of the romance novels I have read tend to down play the discomfort that one encounters during the first sexual experience, it's like;

Heroine cringe "That hurts."
..."

Totally agree.

P.A. wrote: "Dominique wrote: "A majority of the romance novels I have read tend to down play the discomfort that one encounters during the first sexual experience, it's like;

Heroine cringe "That hurts."
..."

As much as I agree with this whole discussion - being a 26 yr old myself and that age group, I have actually (surprising to myself of course) found out that a LOT of women that are friends of mine are virgins - and these are all 27-31 year olds! Now, mind you, the majority of those are waiting until marriage for religious reasons, but it's surprisingly not THAT uncommon! (And the girls are cute!)

P.A. wrote: "Dominique wrote: "A majority of the romance novels I have read tend to down play the discomfort that one encounters during the first sexual experience, it's like;

Heroine cringe "That hurts."
..."

PA I think a 30 year old virgin is very rare and there would be certain circumstances in her life which would allow for this to be....like she was asleep in a coma or in a abby locked away or had a mom like Carrie or something. Otherwise, I agree with you. very unlikely. Unless everyone is lying????? You know, the too cool for school thing?

You seem to forget that other forms of penetration during a sexual experience are often handled the same way as vaginal penetration.

Maybe it is just the conservative view they have which finds anal sex or BDSM as dirty or bad??? Either way...I know more women who have never tried this and yet having a very negative view point regarding this form of engagement.

My whole point is, even if losing your virginity did not hurt. (Vaginal or what ever else) You still are awkward, and uncomfortable. Even if you are not a virgin, your first time with a new partner can be a bumpy road too. And it does take time to learn what your partner likes, where to touch and how to do it for best effect. You need to get used to each others bodies.

So many authors write scenes in which we kinda wrinkle our brow and say, "Oh Yeah?" and then just accept and keep reading because it is fantasy.

As for my reading material I do tend to expect virginity in my historical romances, find it refreshing in YA & am neutral on my PNR or contemporary Adult.

Katya wrote: "P.A. wrote: "Dominique wrote: "A majority of the romance novels I have read tend to down play the discomfort that one encounters during the first sexual experience, it's like;

Heroine cringe "Tha..."

I thought the same thing until I moved to the country. I believe it depends more on location and customs. I can't even remember losing my virginity while some of my co-workers are still waiting for their prince charming. *shrug*

It does often feel like eye rolling moments when reading about perfect first time experiences. I do like a little realism injected into my fantasy worlds lol.

But I think you'll find there are more older virgins ie 25 - 30 year olds than you expect. Some of my friends who are in this range still are and its purely choice and wanting to wait. They've had plenty of opps though.

I do prefer older characters in my romance ie not 18yr olds so don't run across virgin characters as much as others would.

It's tempting as hell to write your character as a virgin, because virginity denotes purity and innocence, but I think it’s more feasible if the heroine is not a virgin...at least in modern stories.

Though there are older virgins in the world today (getting out my binoculars...just kidding) the kind of people who guard their virginity like that, wouldn’t logically give themselves to the hero. Even if he is sex on a stick. ^_^

Historical romance aside, (those chicks kinda have to be a virgin ;p) if virginity is a factor, then I think there should be some extenuating circumstances; like she’s been locked away, or something like that, which can be a fun story.

But, if the heroine is just some girl from Nowhere America, then I’d prefer she be a little experienced. Just my personal preference.

I agree with Kiersten.

I also like grown women as heroines with grown women experiences. A heroine can be just as smitten by the hero if she has - gasp - had sex with another man and even had an orgasm before.

I like starcrossed love and undeniable passion and all, but I still want realism in my hero/heroine and their relationship.

Not every sexual encounter has to end with orgasms either. Sometimes it doesn't happen. The encounter can still be hot, sexy, and passionate.

Katya wrote: "You seem to forget that other forms of penetration during a sexual experience are often handled the same way as vaginal penetration.

Maybe it is just the conservative view they have which finds ..."

I don't let it affect my enjoyment of the book but I get a little annoyed sometimes depending on the situation.

The other thing that kind of bothers me, but maybe it's just me, is when the couples wake up in bed in the morning and start kissing. Not just little kisses but when they describe french kissing. Don't they get morning breath? That's all I can think about when I read it.

P.A. - ROTFLMAO. I always think the same thing. In my head they are hiding breathmints under the pillow.

I personally don't have a huge issue with the virgin thing. I actually prefer my heroines to be "pure" although I am fine if they aren't. I think that stems from reading romance novels in my teen years and they always just seemed more romantic to me when the hero was the only one who had ever had the heroine.

Funny that I never had an issue with the hero being a man-slut though. LOL.

Michelle(Chelle) aka Nightshade wrote: "P.A. - ROTFLMAO. I always think the same thing. In my head they are hiding breathmints under the pillow.

I personally don't have a huge issue with the virgin thing. I actually prefer my heroine..."

So true, the hero is always a man slut but the woman is pure. That's what bothers me. But again, not enough to dislike a book because of it. And from now on I'll assume they've had gum or a mint. LOL

Lauren wrote: "I think the idea behind all of these virgins enjoying their first times so much is to emphasize the hero's prowess in the bedroom. He's so good that even the inexperienced virgin forgets the discom..."

Well, would you really want your fantasy any other way? If I get to choose, I can tell you that the hero won't be a two pump chump who has no concern for the needs of the heroine. That's just no fun at all. Deflowering scenes are most often written idealistically rather than realistically and I'm fine with that. I'd rather not relive my own first time, thanks.

Instead of thinking of him as a manslut, think of him as classically trained. Lol.

As for the morning kissing...that's always really bugged me too. Yuck!

LMAO - Lanie....classically trained. Love it.

Hahahhaaaa I always think of them as reformed man-whores lol. I find it kinda sexy that they used to sleep around everywhere but one girl makes them want only that one girl for the rest of their lives. It's cute!

And about the virginity thing, as someone above said, I too wasn't in any pain the first time. I dunno. I always figured the pain thing was a myth.... But it's not like I sit around talking about it with my girlfriends lol.

I like virgin heroines and virgin heroes in books. It ads an extra element of sexy to the bed scenes. I don't care if they aren't virgins either, I can appreciate both.

For whatever reason the morning breath thing doesn't bother me. It's a book, I expect a fantastical element. It's why I don't read non-fiction.

"Funny that I never had an issue with the hero being a man-slut though. LOL."

I actually have a bit of a problem with the man whore, especially in historical - think of the STDs!! I am great with a hero who has had a few lovers, but when they've slept with hundreds of women? I cringe - and I start listing off all of the diseases they probably have and will give to the pure, innocent heroine.... Shudder! At least contemporary have antibiotics....

Lanie wrote: "Lauren wrote: "I think the idea behind all of these virgins enjoying their first times so much is to emphasize the hero's prowess in the bedroom. He's so good that even the inexperienced virgin for..."

Lanie, I have tears rolling down my face when I read "two pump chump" I have never heard that before. LMBO