The Liberal Politics & Current Events Book Club discussion

Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War

Is this a good place for our discussion? Please post your comments about the book here. We've agreed to all finish reading by July 13th, so I guess the real discussion can begin then, but I think interim comments are welcome, right?

Melki is reading it for the 2nd time and can moderate by posting some questions, etc, (if you want!). Happy reading!

I started reading this. I've already started highlighting things. Really interesting read so far!

So far, as I have been reading, all I can really say is that I am even more ashamed to be an American. Is that bad? I'm really enjoying the book and I'm finding things I want to look into more. I have been reading portions to my husband and it has sparked several discussions. Anyone else?

My husband read the book right after I did, but we've been married 20 years, so we communicate mostly by grunting at one another. So, no I haven't discussed this book with anyone. Looking forward to talking about it with all of you.

I'm finding it rough going. Not because it isn't good, but because it's SO sad! I need to just grit my teeth & get on with it, but I'm glad I have nearly another month to finish it -- I'm planning on taking many breaks between chapters.

Melki, Jake & I are coming up on our 20th anniv. in August -- it's a seemingly rare accomplishment these days!

Congrats Lea! Here's to 20 more!

Hello All!

Tis I, your moderator. Wanted to let everyone know that I have finished rereading the book and have taken copious notes!

I thought perhaps we could start with a role call to find out who is reading this book and plans to participate AND also where everyone is in their reading. So if you'd like to make a comment to let us know where you're at...that would be great.

I'm anticipating a small group - so I hope you will all be very "vocal!"

Thanks for your leadership, Melki! I'm done with the first 4 chapters and will probably finish the rest in the next few days. What a great book! It has changed my views on the gun control thing already, and I think there are some great suggestions hidden throughout it.

I also just looked up the author's website, www.joebageant.com and found out that he recently passed away :( so sad! but he has another book I'd like to read at some point. Thanks so much for referring us to this great little book!

Oh no! I didn't know that! He died in March of this year. I also didn't know about a second book. Thanks, Julia.

OK, so this book we're discussing is comprised of reminiscences of conversations with rural Virginians who love their country and vote against their own self-interests. I found it amusing at times. Writing a humorous book probably was one of Bageant's aims. Still and all, I sure would have liked to see some research in the book to back up the author's assertions.

Bageant concludes that an ignorant, uneducated electorate is easy to manipulate (OK, yeah, that's obvious)...and the best way to do this is with an emotional slogan delivered repeatedly in person. So, in Bageant's world, are we left with two choices?-- either (1) educate the electorate (which is a very long-range strategy), or (2) beat the manipulators at their own game?

Yes, I too would have preferred notes, an index and a bibliography.
Do you think there are only two choices? Which would you choose?

ALRIGHT! I'm so glad more of you are showing up! I'm not sure how many have completely finished the book, but I think everyone has at least made it to page 7 where Bageant mentions the "long-running national lie that most Americans are middle class."

I've always considered myself middle-class. I grew up in a 3-bedroom ranch house on half an acre. I now live in an even bigger 3-bedroom rancher on half an acre. BUT - there have been times when, yes - I was one mortgage payment away from homelessness.

Many people consider themselves to be middle-class just because they own more STUFF than their parents did. But does owning a satellite dish and a widescreen TV make you middle-class? (Especially if you're in debt up to your eyeballs trying to pay for everything!)

So, my question is - what do you think really constitutes the middle-class in this country today?

Just out of curiosity, I Googled "What is an average middle-class income?" Found 2 interesting paragraphs:


Economist's Views
Economist Gary Burtless of Brookings Institution indicates that the middle class encompasses from one-half the median income to twice the median income. This would make the middle class income range $25,117 to $100,466. MIT economist Frank Levy believes that those in the middle class have enough money to afford the basic building blocks of a good life, including a house, a car and money to pay necessary bills. He suggests that families in their prime earning years are middle class if they fall between $30,000 and $90,000.

More Than Income
Surveys conducted by the PewResearch Center confirm that salary, or income, range is not the only determining factor of what class a person considers himself. Four out of 10 Americans with incomes below $20,000 classify themselves as middle class. On the other end, one-third of those who enjoy incomes over $150,000 say they are middle class.

Oh - and thanks for the image of Ward and his male secretary! I feel like I should go dip my brain in bleach!

Was anyone surprised to learn that over half of all poor people are white? And that most of them have jobs?

Humph...not actually surprised by this. I have MUCH to say about the healthcare chapter, but I was waiting til more people join us. HINT, HINT...

Hi all,
I really loved this book - it really kind of "humanized" the FOX News crowd for me and helped me empathize with how people could become so stubbornly anti-intellectual and defensive of gun rights and such. I thought the parts about how liberals alienate these folks were really interesting, though I'm not that clear on how we can change, except maybe by being less consumerist and investing more in our communities. The book was a little short on solutions sometimes, but here's an idea:

One big take-home message for me was that there is not enough personal connection and interaction between regions, communities, and subcultures in the US. Hatred and prejudice, in my experience, always come from fear of the unknown, and they can be overcome through personal connection and dialogue. I've begun envisioning a kind of youth corps that would send young people into working class communities to listen, participate, maybe hold some literacy/writing classes or home-based business workshops, and just interact with people who are different from themselves. Kill 'em with kindness, like those pesky missionaries do, but these would be Missionaries of Reason & Critical Thinking.

Good idea, Julia. I think Dems. spend way too much time campaigning in urban areas, and courting those who are already planning to vote for them. We need to spread out to the countryside and convince voters that we're not gonna "take away your guns", without coming across as condescending. Sounds like mission impossible, but the other team has been doing it for decades. Do Republicans have a better knack for schmoozing? And have liberals, as Bageant mentions, lost the skills of grassroots orgainization?

But we can all agree that missionaries are pesky, right?

L. - are you saying that it's a waste of time to try to change the votes of the many who would list "great guy to have a beer with" as the quality most desired in a President? Should we just talk them into staying home on election day? What can we do?

Don't apologize! We should ALL be bent on revolution!
I just have no clue how to begin. I've been thinking of reading "Citizens", Simon Schama's account of the French Revolution, but the 900+ pages make me feel exhausted just picking it up. This crushing feeling of powerlessness (combined with a snoring spouse) has kept me from sleeping more nights than I can count. The government and courts ARE corrupt. I don't even know where to begin to fix the healthcare system.
(Wonder if my insurance would pay for a Valium prescription?)

My son is so excited that he gets to vote for the first time next year. Wish I could be excited for him, but more and more, it's starting to seem like a waste of time. I've got to keep reminding myself of one of the best lines I copied from the book - "If we abandon the playing field to the other side, they win by default."

Since I could use a good laugh right now - I did not know that King James (of Bible fame) was a notorious homosexual. Somehow my mother's "Pastor Mike" always failed to mention that in his sermons.

I'll also mention that I am descended from those Scots-Irish Borderers. Though my father had a PhD, he could play the banjo like a Deliverance hillbilly and many on my mother's side "drove truck" for a living. I was the first in her family to graduate from college. Sigh... for better or worse, these are my people.
Thanks for the website. Next time I'm wide awake and worried to death at 3am, I'll have a look.

The mention of the French Revolution reminded me of something my daughter said -- she's always advocating for our family to move to Europe, & often mentions details about life in various countries.

The other day she was talking about France & how French citizens demand health care, decent wages & education, etc., from their government. She paused, mulling it over, then said that she supposed that's what happened when the citizens revolt & start chopping off the heads of those in power.

That one brief conversation gave more clarity on that period of time & on how governments serve the populace than all my years in school. It also made me wonder if that's why european revolutions seem to be glossed over in our education system?

Don't want to give the unwashed masses any ideas ... Although it's so deeply ingrained that revolution & questioning the government isn't "patriotic" ...

Why do you hate America, Lea? Don't you know that the our leaders only have our best interests at heart?
(Pardon me while I wipe my eyes - I'm laughing so hard.)

Don't forget about those 8 weeks of vacation the French look forward to every year!

I'm hanging my head in shame ...

Does anyone want to wade into the depressing waters of the health care system in this country?

Two years ago, I had an abnormal mammogram, and as I sat in the waiting room waiting to be rechecked, I was more worried about whether or not my health insurance company would find a way to weasel out of paying the bill than worried that I actually might have cancer. This doesn't seem right to me. Everything was fine and I ended up not owing a dime, but...it does remind me that we all may be one major health crisis away from losing everything we've worked for.

A few years ago, my husband was unemployed for about four months and my biggest worry then was not having health insurance. I remember telling the kids - "You can play at Will's house, but stay off his swing set. We can't afford to have you break an arm!"

How can we even begin to fix this mess?

Good question - how can we fix this mess? Maybe we'll get single payer health care state by state - we've already started with Vermont. Maybe we'll kick corporate money out of politics through a constitutional amendment (see MovetoAmend.org), or maybe we'll find another way. But we all need to get more active. Has anyone checked out the sites that Bageant recommended? wellstoneaction.org & talk2action.org?

I just sent my copy of this book off to its next eager reader through www.bookmooch.com. I also volunteered at "books to prisoners" program in my neighborhood. Only through education will our country get back on the right path, if you ask me, and prisoners have time to read! See if there's a program near you, or support one through bookmooch by giving away your books & donating your points to them:
http://bookmooch.com/m/charity_log_gi...

I admire your commitment, Julia. So far my political action has mostly involved sitting around complaining and occasionally mailing a check. Thanks for posting the websites. I'll try to be more active in the future.

I admire your commitment, Julia. So far my political action has mostly involved sitting around complaining and occasionally mailing a check. Thanks for posting the websites. I'll try to be more active in the future.