The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of July 4th - July 10th, we are reading approximately the next 21 pages of A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Barbara W. Tuchman.

The third week's reading assignment is:

Week Three - July 4th - July 10th -> PART ONE - Chapter FOUR p. 70 - 91
FOUR - War

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on June 20th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is time still remaining to obtain the book and get started.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL



by Barbara W. Tuchman

OK, before going forward, let us look back at the questions in the previous chapters that were never discussed. I have eliminated ones that we have covered. For example we have now covered all of the Foreward's questions.

These were some of the other questions from last week that I think we still need to address and cover so I am reviewing this from last week on this thread:

From Chapter One:

What was the impact of the Crusades if any upon the lives of the people who lived during the 14th Century?

Describe the earlier periods of history specifically the 11 - 12th Century Renaissance.

Discuss the way of life in France. What was the king's justice like; what were the expectations of the population. Discuss Louis IX.

Taxation seems to be always with us since the beginning of time; what were the views and practices regarding taxation during this time period?

What were the functions of the three estates?

And the ones left from Chapter Two: (the ones discussed were not moved forward)

From Chapter Two:

Were there environmental issues and problems that plagued Europe? What were these climate, environmental impacts and what were the results of these situations? How did the time period influence how these were handled? How different would be these same situations if they were handled now?

Discuss William of Ockham, Marsillius of Padua.

Discuss the origins of the Hundred Years War? How did this expansive war affect the population and their way of life?

If you were living during the 14th century, what would your economic outlook have been? What were the demarcations between the rich and the poor and how did they view one another?

Were there any anti semitic views at this time and how did Tuchman introduce them?

Usury is defined as follows:

Usury ( /ˈjuːʒəri/, from Medieval Latin usuria, "interest", or from Latin usura, "interest") originally was the charging of interest on loans; this included charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change. In places where interest became acceptable, usury was interest above the rate allowed by law. Today, usury is commonly used to refer to the charging of unreasonable and excessive rates of interest. The term is largely derived from Christian religious principles; Riba is the corresponding Arabic term and ribbit is the Hebrew word.

In terms of usury, how was money lending, loans and banking handled during the 14th century?

This is the only one from Chapter Three left that needs tackling:

What types of literature and learning were occurring in the 14th century.

Questions for Chapter Four

Once again what were the origins of the 100 years War? How did new weapons like the long bow and the gun change everything? During this conflict what were the tactics of the belligerants; what were their expectations? Why did the French and English knights have different attitudes towards commoners in the armies and how did these attitudes manifest themeselves?

In the 14th century how was war financed? And what was the economic outlook at this time?

What were the English economic ties to Flanders in terms of the wool trade?

What was the importance of the Battle of Crécy (Aug. 26, 1346)? Where was Crecy? (initiated discussion)

Please feel free to tackle any of the remaining questions and topics of discussion left from Chapters One to Three and any of the outlined topics for the current chapter Four.

Crecy was in France - close to Flanders - where in the battle questioned the "superiority" of the longbow was demonstrated.

Answering something from Bentley - also I think, before the plague, the economic outlook was getting better - the beginning of some kinds of industrialization was really enabling an increase in standard of living - not withstanding the taxes to support the wars.

This segment had a lot of facts and orientations to digest to understand the place and time etc. and it is done well.

Yes, it is done well Vince - but Tuchman likes to throw in a lot of facts.

Thank you for digging in to one of the discussion questions.

Folks, I will be traveling overseas until August 1st so there will be some times that I am out of pocket and may not have a computer link; but I will get on as much as I can.

Aussie Rick will be backing me up until then. I am going to open the next four weeks of links so that folks will not be held up in any way and can pop into the week's links as they move along. We will be still keeping our schedule but I want to make sure that everything is open and nothing in the discussion is impacted.

Bentley wrote: "Folks, I will be traveling overseas until August 1st so there will be some times that I am out of pocket and may not have a computer link; but I will get on as much as I can.

Aussie Rick will be b..."

Bon Voyage

Thanks Vince

William of Ockham...remaining question from Chapter Two.

So, he was a philosopher...to whom we credit Ockham's Razor which can be boiled down to "the simplest explanation is often the best explanation", or according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "don't multiply entities beyond their necessity" although it also states "that particular formulation cannot be found anywhere in his texts".

He was a Franciscan monk. Tuchman describes him as, in a sense, being a spokesperson for intellectual freedom (p. 37). I believe, if I am interpreting this correctly, he was an early advocate of the separation of church and state, which of course, explains why he was excommunicated.

I believe Tuchman is using him as an example that the Middle Ages were not a complete black hole in terms of intellectual thinking and the development of new ideas...although the Church's reaction seems to show why the expression of such thinking was stifled.

Here's the Stanford link with all sorts of good info on William of Ockham:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ock...

On Marsilius of Padua.

He also was a philosopher and also challenged papal supremacy and was an advocate of the supremacy of the State. Again, not very popular with the Church.

The Catholic Encyclopedia (see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09719...) describes his influence as "disastrous" and that he can be reckoned as one of the fathers of the Reformation. (see the last sentence of the write up).

Well, I guess the Catholic Church would see his views as disastrous...can't say I agree.

Origins of the 100-year war.

At its basic level it was a war over territory in France...the English had a chunk of it because of Eleanor of Aquitaine marrying Henry II of England and naturally, the French weren't happy about that.

The French also felt boxed in between the English and Flanders, who had a pretty sweet relationship with England due to the wool trade (Flanders needed wool and the English took the finished goods and traded for wine in France, something they needed.

And then there was the threat of the English monarchy laying claim to the French throne because the daughter and only living heir to the French King married an English King and their child, King Edward III thereby had a valid claim.

So, the French were threatened by the English and wanted the English out of France and the English weren't eager to give up their French lands or claims to the French throne.

The back and forth of battles, the course of events over time, and plain old stubbornness kept the conflict alive and kicking over the next 100 years.

Here's a nice website with pretty maps and a brief summary: http://www.vlib.us/medieval/lectures/...

Kim you are really going to town...good for you and thank you for all of the adds. Great posts.

In terms of military technology, it was interesting to me that so often the new technology was rejected if it didn't fit the proper ideas of who was "important" in a battle or army. The bowman were supposed to be less important than the mounted knights because of their social class, so the French knights were dismissive of the destructive power of the English bowman, much to their disadvantage. I've been thinking about how often even the best informed will dismiss a new technology if it doesn't fit with their own ideas about social order. College professors, for example, are notoriously slow adopters of technology that would really help their teaching and research. This seems sometimes to be because they don't like to admit that new technology, such as new forms of electronic communication, will add anything significant to their knowledge. I see this as another way we parallel the 14th century.

Andrea, a great comment. Very good analogy. Many times folks do not want to feel out of touch so that might explain their behavior in not identifying with the new and in both cases an apt analogy.

Folks I am in the middle of international travel; so I will not be on as much for about three weeks time. But have found a wifi connection so I am trying to catch up a bit.

Good thoughts Andrea. Wimilar to the whole failure to adopt technology, the rigid class system also must have contributed to the slow pace of progress. Makes you wonder how much further along India could be if they had been able to shed the caste system and harness all that other human potential that is being surpressed by their rigid class system. Well, not really wonder, that kind of seems pretty obvious.

I obviously need this book. When Tuchman talks about events heralding the beginning of a long war, I had no idea what war that would be. Too bad the participants couldn't label the war correctly from the beginning--"We will now begin fighting the 100 Years War." Ha.

I find myself generally rooting for the side that innovates and has good strategy mixed with grim determination . So "yea" for the English and the longbow. And the rolling of the eyes for King Phillip camping too far from the battlefield so they reach the battle at 4pm (page 87). It seems so silly, and yet it isn't that easy to think of every detail. I guess that is the difference between brilliant (and successful) campaigners and everyone else.

I was also interested in the advent of the gun. I've read about when and where gunpowder was invented, but I never knew much about the gun. When Tuchman first mentioned "gun," my first thought was a personal weapon. But of course the large cannon-type guns would be developed first. Like so many other inventions, it doesn't just take someone with an idea. It takes someone with determination to work at it until it becomes useable. Edison: "Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration." (See http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/ge...)

Elizabeth, I love your post 20 and your comments on war and innovation. What a great quote and so true.

I also thought it was interesting that Edward III maintained a position that allowed him to see what was going on, and therefore continue to direct, in a battle. His French counterpart was still deep in the chivalry model (I must lead ze charge!) in that respect as well.

Elizabeth, loved your comment about naming the 100 Years War! It took me a while to figure that one out, too!

I love "I must lead ze charge!" Now I've got to think of an appropriate place to use it...

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who missed the 100-year reference at first. Phew!