The History Book Club discussion

Bentley wrote: "Since Foster was already introduced in these chapters, I think we can make a point with him. A wonderful guy who Clinton knew for ages; was known as a terrific attorney and was a big fish in a litt..."

I would think it is hard to fault Clinton for bringing Foster with him to Washington. As you progress throught life you spend less and less time in such close proximity to your friends, and if Foster was a successful big fish in a small pond - compared to Washington Little Rock is a small pond - and Clinton was looking for people he could trust and depend upon then I think asking Foster was logical - maybe during his service in Washington someone should have noticed he was in trouuble but I would find it hard to fault Clinton for this choice.

Just another perspective

Vince wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Since Foster was already introduced in these chapters, I think we can make a point with him. A wonderful guy who Clinton knew for ages; was known as a terrific attorney and was a bi..."

A solid point, Vince, thank you. I don't blame Clinton, either. I would think you would want a long-time friend with you in Washington. He probably thought his skills could translate to D.C. and have a trusted adviser close by.

Here is another telling quote:

"All my life I've been interested in other people's stories. I've wanted to know them, understand them, feel them. When I grew up and got into politics, I always felt the main point of my work was to give people a chance to have better stories." (p. 15)

Do you think this is the right approach to enter and thrive in politics?

I think the proof is in the pudding and Clinton is a great example - folks when they talk with him think that he is solely interested in them and their situation. Hard to beat that.

I would think it would be a requirement that you love people to thrive in politics. I'm sure every politician didn't have this trait, but boy, I can see myself getting burned out quickly if you did not have it.

On the surface, he reminds me of Harry Truman, a kind of folksy, small town kind of feel, you know?

Well everybody is entitled to their own opinion but Harry Truman intellectually and education wise for starters could not hold a candle to Clinton; additionally Truman's personality was brusque and brittle which is a complete opposite to Clinton. No I don't see the connection one iota. I think that in some ways Clinton was more of a natural than Reagan was in public (without a script) and was more spontaneously in tune with the underdog which Reagan was not. But personality wise I could see the public persona being similar. But Truman not so much; I think George W fancied himself like Truman and I did not see that either.

Bentley wrote: "Well everybody is entitled to their own opinion but Harry Truman intellectually and education wise for starters could not hold a candle to Clinton; additionally Truman's personality was brusque and..."

Sorry, I should say the image of Truman: small town roots, folksy, never lost that small town image. I say this in light of what we know right now in these pages. As president and as he grows older, your assessments are more in tune.

Of course..understood.

Bryan wrote: "Here is another telling quote:

"All my life I've been interested in other people's stories. I've wanted to know them, understand them, feel them. When I grew up and got into politics, I always f..."

I think it's the right approach Bryan, but I think in some ways that caring can be harmful when you're a politician too, because you have to realize at some level that there is always going to be some human pain, some tragedy that no amount of legislation will cure.

Going back to one of my prior postings re: the prologue, I think this is the kind of outlook one needs to have in order to be a successful president. Quoting from the prologue here:

"My life in politics was a joy. I loved campaigns and I loved governing. I always tried to keep things moving in the right direction, to give more people a chance to live their dreams, to lift people's spirits, and to bring them together. That's the way I kept score."

I think as long as a president can keep the focus here, on continual improvement, then that is probably a healthy one for themselves and for the country too. You can't cure all the ills, but you can keep making progress. At least, as you define it.

I think if more presidents could honestly say this, our country and perhaps our world would be a better place. And really, if we all could say that we just went out into the world daily to improve the place a bit - our little corner - what a different world we'd have.

OK, I'll get off the soapbox now, lol.

Excellent post Laura and you can get on your soapbox anytime. (smile)

I like it when folks quote what they are discussing; it makes the post so much more meaningful and understood - great job.

Thanks Bentley, this is my first group read and I'm enjoying it!

Another quote that really moved me, this one from the top of p. 5, early in the first chapter, after he describes his dad's untimely death:

"That brief sketch is about all I ever really knew about my father. All my life I have been hungry to fill in the blanks, clinging eagerly to every photo or scrap of paper that would tell me more of the man who gave me life."

This nearly moved me to tears the first time I read it. I can just see the little boy in this paragraph, so desperate to learn anything he can about his dad. Such a sad thing, and really must have shaped this young man. He certainly met adversity early on.

I am so glad and your posts are very thoughtful. I love the use of quotes in posts because it makes the posts that much more powerful and folks can join and comment as well. Excellent style.

Yes, a man without a father is almost like a boy who has a big piece missing in his life and never gets past that void. He had to have had some good role models in his family because many times this kind of life event affects relationships and makes them transitory. He certainly has dug his heels in and early on decided to outlast his parents in terms of their relationships. That sometimes is extremely tough and rare - in terms of being able to break the cycle and sometimes the DNA.

Laura wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Here is another telling quote:

"All my life I've been interested in other people's stories. I've wanted to know them, understand them, feel them. When I grew up and got into politi..."

You make a important point. Nixon wanted to change the world, make a world-wide impact. Clinton, at this point, sees government's positive influence on one individual. It is probably a more healthy outlook to look at the one on one. It reminds me of a House member, who has to have that approach a little bit more.

Laura wrote: "Another quote that really moved me, this one from the top of p. 5, early in the first chapter, after he describes his dad's untimely death:

"That brief sketch is about all I ever really knew about..."

I can't imagine losing a dad and always have a missing piece. It is a pretty courageous aspect of his life story.

We also read about Clinton's introduction to jazz when he visited his mother in New Orleans. He mentions Al Hirt:

(November 7, 1922-April 27, 1999)--A phenomenally proficient trumpet player, Al Hirt was one of the most successful instrumental recording artists of the 1960s. Perhaps modeling his genial stage personality after Louis Armstrong, Hirt was a tremendously popular performer, easily capturing the center of attention with his massive 300-pound, 6-foot-2 frame (among his nicknames were “Jumbo” and “The Round Mound of Sound”) but holding it with his joyful spirit and jaw-dropping virtuosity.

Although Hirt came out of New Orleans leading a Dixieland band, he never let himself get stereotyped in that narrow genre. He was honest about his choice of style, never calling what he played “jazz”: “I'm a pop commercial musician,” he once said. “and I've got a successful format. I'm not a jazz trumpet and never was a jazz trumpet.”

Hirt's father bought him his first trumpet from a pawnshop, and by the time he was in high school, he was sounding post time at the local race track. Hirt was always very serious about perfecting his mastery of his instrument, and he studied at the Cincinnati Conservatory for three years in the early 1940s. After playing with Army bands during World War Two, he worked with Tommy Dorsey, Ray McKinley, and Benny Goodman's big bands--usually as first chair, but not a soloist--until he returned to New Orleans and formed his own band in 1950.

For most of the 1950s, he was comfortable staying close to home--musically and professionally. Raising eight kids with his first wife probably had something to do with it, but Hirt was always happy to have a strong association with the music and lifestyle of New Orleans. He often performed with clarinet player Pete Fountain, who achieved nearly the same level of national fame, and the two remained close friends and colleagues until Hirt's death. Hirt recorded a number of mainstream Dixieland albums for Audio Fidelity and others during this period.

In 1960, Hirt's group, the Dixieland Six, played Las Vegas and was spotted by Dinah Shore, who booked them onto her television variety show. Television and Hirt took to each other, and RCA quickly signed him and began promoting him as a major artist. To get and keep a national audience, Hirt had to loosen his ties to Dixieland. Virtually none of his RCA albums have a strong Dixieland flavor, most of them featuring large studio ensembles and arrangements by veterans like Marty Paich, Billy May, and Marty Gold. His albums “Honey in the Horn,” and “Cotton Candy,” were both gold records, and he was named “Top Instrumentalist” by Billboard magazine in 1965. His recording of “Java,” won him a Grammy.

Hirt never turned his back on his roots, though, and at the same time he was coming to fame, he opened his own night club in the French Quarter and appeared there regularly. Although he toured steadily well into the 1980s, often in pops concerts with symphony orchestras, he tried to work his schedules to bring him back home quickly. His 1965 album with Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops was among his best-selling records, and Hirt enjoyed playing classical showpieces as well as popular numbers.

Hirt's weight and lifestyle eventually took its toll on his body, and in later years, he had to perform in a wheelchair. He closed his club in 1983, fed up with the deterioration of the French Quarter, but he continued to play there, mostly at Fountain's club, until a few months before his death in 1999.

Al Hirt recorded more than 50 albums in his career, and played for millions of people around the world including Pope John Paul II and 8 U.S. Presidents. He earned 4 gold albums and 1 platinum, and a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Charlie “Bird” Parker Memorial Foundation.

He is a legend in his native New Orleans, where there is a live sized statue of him in the French Quarter.
(Source: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/music...)

When I was in elementary school, the sister of one of my classmates was hit by a car and killed. As she was only one grade behind, we all knew her. Her surviving sister was always talkative and lively, but now there was a live-every-second mode added to her life, and she became even more in the middle of everything and living every second double-time. From her, I understand Clinton's mentioning about his determination to live every second. He had the added disadvantage of never knowing his father 'in the flesh'.

Thanks for the story, Virginia. It makes sense the survivor would be in that mode.

Bentley wrote: "Well everybody is entitled to their own opinion but Harry Truman intellectually and education wise for starters could not hold a candle to Clinton; additionally Truman's personality was brusque and..."

Just some thoughts on comparing Truman to Clinton, or Reagan or Nixon or Bush etc - is to note he started from a very different point.

He became president from the Vice Presidency but never even tried, I am 99.4% sure, to get nominated for the Presidency.

He started the Presidency of a pretty unified country trying to finish WW II - I have to agree that he was not on the level of Clinton for charisma or intellect but he filled a job he had to fill and did it well (I think from what I know) - for a guy who inherited the office with no preparation from FDR etc he did a really good job - and he kept, I think, Eisenhower from having, at some point, a confrontation with MacArthur. Think of that in a country today where the President has to ask Petraeus or some other military what they should/can do or so it sometimes seems.........................

When I was down in the South a month ago (it seems like it was longer ago than that now); I saw where MacArthur had grown up and I am sure that he was a traditional person who just got a bit full of his own ideas. He did have a big ego as do most of the Presidents. Eisenhower had been around these sort of men all of his life and knew how to handle them or not. I think he would have been able to handle any confrontation with any general with aplomb. He had often served men with very large egos.

As far as Truman - history has reviewed his performance and historians believe that the did a good job during a very difficult period of time. Aside from that point - doing a good job as president - MHO is that this is the only similarity. Bryan pointed out the similarity of both of them (Clinton and Truman) of having a folksy style; but even in that I see major differences.

But your points are very well taken and everything that you stated about Truman is quite true. In fact, even Eleanor Roosevelt felt tremendously sympathetic to Truman when he had to take over under such circumstances. FDR really did not keep him in the loop and he was almost an outsider in that administration.

All good stuff Vince, thank you once again.

Virginia wrote: "When I was in elementary school, the sister of one of my classmates was hit by a car and killed. As she was only one grade behind, we all knew her. Her surviving sister was always talkative and l..."

An excellent story Virginia, glad to see you involved in this read. You were one of my staunch original members.

It does seem when a parent dies young that the child tries to grow up fast and do things in a hurry. They are probably worried at some level that they will not have time to do all of those things they want to do in life and that they too will die off.

It does leave these folks I think with an emptiness not filled by any other. One which even they cannot explain to those closest to them or folks who will be close to them at some point in time. An unsatisfied yearning.

Vince wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Well everybody is entitled to their own opinion but Harry Truman intellectually and education wise for starters could not hold a candle to Clinton; additionally Truman's personality..."

Indeed the circumstances of getting into office were quite different. Thanks for your insights, Vince. Both Truman and Clinton had to face a "new world order" and that is tough.

Bentley wrote: "Virginia wrote: "When I was in elementary school, the sister of one of my classmates was hit by a car and killed. As she was only one grade behind, we all knew her. Her surviving sister was alway..."

I like that phrase, Bentley, "unsatisfied yearning." It could have played a role in his decision to go into politics, to really make a good life and a impact on people.

I think it did at some level and I understand it a bit better just having read the Prologue and these first two chapters. I think the book is excellent so far.

I like that phrase also...that was said very well.

Bentley, for some reason I thought you'd read this one before. No?

Not in the recent past; I have the hardcover since it first came out.

It is new to me, as well. I actually didn't buy one until now, because I was wasn't sure I could get through it on my own, so it is working out.

Comments appropriate for a "spoiler" location have been moved.

So I am nine years late to the conversation, but I'm glad Bentley mentioned it! I am just reading this for the first time, after finding the hardcover for $7 at a thrift store about 5 years ago.

I was a Clinton man in college, and it is going to be interesting to take measure of him anew, now that I am older and hopefully wiser. Already, in the prologue, I paused at this line:

Like all families’ lives, ours is not perfect, but it has been wonderful. Its flaws, all the world knows, are mostly mine…

Aside from very simply stating the obvious, this leads me to believe he will not be hiding from his escapades with other women in this book, but that doesn’t mean they won’t be minimized or re-crafted to fit the overall narrative.

There were some comments here about Hillary’s then-approaching run for president and reelection to the Senate, and I honestly don’t think that would have been a huge factor with the book, although I’m sure she and her staff at least got a read-through before publication. To me, she seemed to become her own independent person after they left the White House, and Bill’s poor life choices only really came back to her in 2016.

Which, of course, none of you knew in 2011.

Bentley wrote: "I really like his style in a way. It is very conversational and he takes frequent detours..."

I agree. I think his personality is coming out in the writing. I love detours, provided I have time references--I hate when I lose track of what year I'm reading about!--and so far, so good.

I also enjoyed reading about his grandfather's ice delivery. My family, when I was a child in the late seventies, was still occasionally referring to our refrigerator as an "ice box," and I never really understood why. My only exposure, until recently, to the fridge's predecessor was in that one episode of The Three Stooges, and I wasn't recognizing any historical context at that time. :)

Jeff my grandmother (born in 1904) had an ice box in Houston TX. It was a metal box like a refrigerator with a compartment on top like a freezer section. You simply stored a large ice block in the top compartment and that kept the lower compartment cool enough to store milk in the hot summertime.
Regards,
Andrea
P. S. I’m still working on getting a copy of this book.

Jeff, I am glad you found the threads. This was back nine years ago it appears. Yes, I think Clinton realized the error of his ways and how it not only affected his life and legacy but that of his families too.

One of the reasons that Hillary did not win was the fact that Americans as a whole never seem to forget someone else's frailities yet want others to forget theirs. Some even blamed her for staying with him.

I agree with you - his life choices came back to haunt her when she ran and her life choice of having married him and then staying with him also hurt her. In fact among white males the antipathy towards poor Hillary was far worse than he ever endured. Very perplexing.

As a President he was one of our best however in terms of the job itself. Extremely bright and hardworking.

I think "recrafted" is the best term - for some reason many of the occupants of the White House have had similar issues.

Jeff wrote: "Bentley wrote: "I really like his style in a way. It is very conversational and he takes frequent detours..."

I agree. I think his personality is coming out in the writing. I love detours, provide..."

Yes, we found it to be a stellar read. I hope you enjoy it - it is a real door stop.

Jeff wrote: "I also enjoyed reading about his grandfather's ice delivery. My family, when I was a child in the late seventies, was still occasionally referring to our refrigerator as an "ice box," and I never r..."

Yes, these historical references will escape many who read his book. Many things change for the better - but as we know now - others do not.

Andrea wrote: "Jeff my grandmother (born in 1904) had an ice box in Houston TX. It was a metal box like a refrigerator with a compartment on top like a freezer section. You simply stored a large ice block in the ..."

It is not difficult - every library has this one. And most second hand stores have it too.