The Sword and Laser discussion

I just finished the first book and, for the most part, really enjoyed it. For the first half of the book I spent a lot of time wondering why this was considered YA fiction at all instead of just fiction. Then a little bit of the YA started to bleed through, and suddenly it became more and more prominent in the final third of the book.

(view spoiler)[ Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the story but the more angsty the characters got the more it became clear why it's shelved under YA. Especially the end bits where Peeta finds out the truth about Kat's feelings. "You don't love me? I love you! Now I'm gonna go sit in my room and cry like a baby about it." I couldn't help rolling my eyes. I mean come on, there was some serious life and death stuff that just happened out there. This bothers you? The girl you like maybe doesn't like-like you back? Even when Katniss and Peeta are teamed up, she starts thinking sometimes about Gale, and then becomes confused about her feelings for Peeta, and you can just see this whole love triangle thing coming a mile away and it's enough to make you wanna gag. I'd prefer Katniss to be a stone-cold badass instead, but maybe I've been reading too much Joe Abercrombie.

Don't get me wrong. I get it. It's YA. This stuff is in there. This is, in fact, how a lot of teenager's vew the world, so they can totally relate. The thing is, I'm 32... I don't read Twilight, and other books full of teenage whoa-is-me/my-life-is-so-hard plotlines for a reason. It's not really geared to me.

So, here's my question for those who've read the entire series. If I continue reading these books (which I'd like to do) am I going to be confronted with more teenage angst? Or more bloody overthrow of a despotic government?

Thanks for your input,

Phill (hide spoiler)]

Fair enough. Thanks, Adrienne. I figure I'll probably check them out then. (view spoiler)[I was just worried that once we were out of the arena that there was going to be a lot less action, and a lot more two guys quarreling over the special girl who doesn't know she's special. (hide spoiler)]

One of the things I really like about light novels (the Japanese equivalent of YA fiction) is they handle the romance aspects without all the wangst. Even in a series like Toradora! which is nothing but a romantic comedy, the amount of time the characters spend thinking about romance is tiny compared to The Hunger Games and other YA books I've read. Instead of characters moping about for page after page, we get characters behaving in ways that demonstrate their true feelings, such as the Boy teaching the Girl how to swim, or making her lunch everyday because her parents have abandoned her in a luxury apartment with no one to take care of her. And, really, isn't this a better resolution to a love-triangle?

Sean wrote: "And, really, isn't this a better resolution to a love-triangle?"

Yes! All problems should be solved with cat fights... ME-OW.

Boots wrote: "Yes! All problems should be solved with cat fights... ME-OW."

Cat fights with kendo swords.

Sean wrote: "And, really, isn't this a better resolution to a love-triangle? "

Ah...two girls fighting over the love of a boy with sticks...that old chestnut!

Dang Sean, how you gonna get me all choked up like that this early in the morning?


And Phillip, I was annoyed myself by the teenage love triangle drama. I put up with it in Hunger Games, but refused to do so when it started right back up in Catching Fire.

Ah...two girls fighting over the love of a boy with sticks...that old chestnut!"

Actually, the thing that makes the fight truly awesome is that it's not, "You stole my man!" but "My love chose you over me, and I'd be fine with that as long as he's happy, but you had to go and break his heart, and for that you must pay."

Sean wrote: "Actually, the thing that makes the fight truly awesome is that it's not, "You stole my man!" but "My love chose you over me, and I'd be fine with that as long as he's happy, but you had to go and break his heart, and for that you must pay"

Ah I see...I was distracted by the stick-fighting ninja schoolgirls!

Re: YA angst in The Hunger Games:

(view spoiler)[ Phillip wote: " Especially the end bits where Peeta finds out the truth about Kat's feelings. "You don't love me? I love you! Now I'm gonna go sit in my room and cry like a baby about it." I couldn't help rolling my eyes. I mean come on, there was some serious life and death stuff that just happened out there. This bothers you? The girl you like maybe doesn't like-like you back? Even when Katniss and Peeta are teamed up, she starts thinking sometimes about Gale, and then becomes confused about her feelings for Peeta, and you can just see this whole love triangle thing coming a mile away and it's enough to make you wanna gag. I'd prefer Katniss to be a stone-cold badass instead..."

See, this is what I actually liked about HG - the predictable thing would have been for Katniss to actually fall in love with Peeta during the course of their fighting together, but instead she is mostly *acting* to gain approval of the audience/possible sponsors. She is *playing* him - that's pretty unsentimental for a YA protaganist. Likewise, Peeta's reaction seemed to be less one of "I can't believe you don't like me" and more of "I can't believe you *pretended* to fall for me, manipulated me, for the audience's benefit", and therefore less simplistic, less gag-worthing angst. Also, the amount of pages the characters dealt with such angsty feelings seemed pretty mercifully low.

I do grant that now the potential triangle is set-up, there's plenty of room for it to become more gag-worthy in the sequels (which I have not read), but at least in this first book it wasn't the huge eye-roll-athon for me it could've been. (hide spoiler)]

Interesting take. The story kept feeling very YA to me and I couldn't put my finger on why. At the same time NPR had this thing where you can go tell them what you think are the best sci fi and fantasy novels (but no horror or YA), and I found myself wondering if I could elect Ender's Game because I couldn't satisfactorily decide whether it was YA or not. I think you're right that the love triangle is definitely a strong YA element, and without it some things just don't feel YA.

Shannon wrote: "Interesting take. The story kept feeling very YA to me and I couldn't put my finger on why. At the same time NPR had this thing where you can go tell them what you think are the best sci fi and fan..."

I think you should absolutely nominate Ender's Game. Mostly because I love that book, but also because I never got the impression that it was a young adult novel. Even though it's about kids, I never got that YA vibe like I got when reading the Hunger Games. And obviously whether I got a vibe or not is the key determining factor in whether or not something is a YA novel.

Interesting.
Especialy in "Hunger Games" I put the YA thing down on the fact that - for this kind of setting - the violence was pretty muted. With Abercrombie or King there (probably) would have been severed limbs and ripped out entrails flying left and right.
Also, I THINK, neither Katniss nor Peeta ever try to kill anyone just for the sake of winning the Game. It's always in defense of them selfes or sbdy else. And its always one of the bad guys (not 100% sure again), never one of the contestants who are given positiv charcter traits.
As for the love triangle thing, I got the impression that Katniss was more of the "WTH do you guys want from me? This is a live/death situation, I've got other things on my mind!" point of view.
Well, at least until she manages to guilt herself into falling in love with both of them.

Leavey wrote: "Interesting.
Especialy in "Hunger Games" I put the YA thing down on the fact that - for this kind of setting - the violence was pretty muted. With Abercrombie or King there (probably) would have ..."

(view spoiler)[There were. Children's limbs, specifically, in Mockingjay when the bomb goes off in the pen where the kids are being used as a human shield for the president's mansion. Also, isn't their mention at one point of a character holding his guts in? (hide spoiler)] At any rate, I think the books are plenty violent. I often found myself thinking of how they were going to interpret these scenes to a teenage audience in the film.

Shannon wrote: "Leavey wrote: "Interesting.
Especialy in "Hunger Games" I put the YA thing down on the fact that - for this kind of setting - the violence was pretty muted. With Abercrombie or King there (probab..."

You are right of course, Mockingjay is very dark and bloody. Much more so than the other two books, much more polical to.
But I was talking about The Hunger Games (first book, not the entire series), and I got the impression that Suzanne Collins downplayed the gore as much as possibly for the audience. Thankfully, as it was disturbing enough as it was.

Sorry for the confusion about that Leavey! Need to differentiate between The Hunger Games the book and The Hunger Games the series. :)
Even in the first book, there were a few things I found a bit on the disturbing side - if not as graphic as Mockingjay. I read these with two things in mind: 1. my 13 year old niece who is very sheltered by her parents and usually only experiences sex and violence in media through books has also read them, and 2. there are movies in the works. So I kept thinking about my niece and how she is sometimes easily spooked, and thinking about what this would look like in a film, and often even in the first book I imagined that seeing this on the screen would make me cover my face (view spoiler)[especially the tracker jacker venom hallucination with flesh-piercing ants! (hide spoiler)] I came away from the first book thinking that in order to make this into a film that has a rating that permits the YA audience to attend, there are going to be a lot of moments of the camera looking away from the violence.

No worries, should've been clearer in my first posting. (I blame it on the foreign language thing ;) )
I get your point about the movie, I never realy thought about it from that side.
I guess what I mean when I say the violence was muted (again first book not the entire series), is not that it wasn't there or was not described, but the words and phrasing chosen for the description.
What got to me the most is not the actual action, but the concept of the Games. I think it's because of the narration.
Wich leads me back to the movie thing, I'm not sure if it's possible to stay true to the book(s) (I mean follow Katniss and Peeta through the arena) and keep the movie YA rated. On screen there won't be the narration filter, so I'm guessing, there'll be alot of foreshadowing for the following movies and heavy leaning on the "starcrossed lovers" stuff. Kissing in the forefront, killing in the background.

On a side note. I firmly believe that "Mockingjay" got the YA only because it'd have been wierd to change the rating for the last book. I mean there's REALY heavy and depressing stuff in there. Still can't decide if it's my favorite or least favorite of the three.