The History Book Club discussion

Welcome to the continuation of the wonderful book: All Quiet on the Western Front!

by Erich Maria Remarque

Elizabeth S is leading this discussion.

This is a May/June/July discussion so everybody has plenty of time to read this selection.

This week's assigned reading is as follows for Week Eight:

Week 8, June 20-26: second part Chapter Seven (pages 151-185)

This is the eighth historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on May 2nd.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. Usually any book offered as one of our discussion selections can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle or even Audible. You usually can also check out Barnes and Noble or Borders and they have the books in stock in their stores and on line. Audible has a summer sale going on and this book is available for download; oddly - Kindle, Barnes and Noble and Borders do not have this book available as a downloadable version but hardcopies and paperbacks are available as noted above.

This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley

Here is a link to the introductory thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is a link to the Table of Contents and Syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is the link to the glossary which is a spoiler thread so beware if you do not like spoilers of any kind - but the links added here will be very useful in understanding the people discussed, their background, the events and the battles, or the environment itself, etc.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is a link to the Military History folder which deals with World War I: (there is a lot here)

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...

Thank you for joining the History Book Club on this journey. And it is never too late to start.

Folks, I am opening this up for discussion until Elizabeth is available:

Brief Overview:

In terms of the edition that I am using; the second part of Chapter Seven opens up Paul emotionally when he visits home and sees two mothers: his own and Kemmerich’s mother. Paul has been able to maintain his emotional distance which to a large extent had protected him. Now that he is opening up emotionally and becoming present with real emotional feelings which are awakened when he returns home; he realizes that this reawakening is actually opening up the floodgates of the pain that he is feeling inside.

He is finally having problems compartmentalizing his feelings and emotions and being able to keep his grief and pain in check.

For those of you reading the book, how did you feel when reading the segment that dealt with the home visit.

For me, it was one of the saddest points in the book and there were many.

Also, why do Paul and men of his age group fear the end of the war as much as they fear the war itself?

Folks, if there are some comments that you would like to explore; please feel free to add these here.

Paul Baumer has a two-week vacation. His train trip is a journey into the past. Familiar becomes alien. An example is his civil suit. It no longer fits. Soldier and civilian, are two very different things.
Paul suppressed the memory of the front, but he finds himself no longer cope at home. His home is the front and his comrades.

Baseni, an excellent point. When you live and die together, your allegiance seems to change.

Why does he think that he no longer fits? How has he changed inside?

I often wonder if a soldier sometimes feels that he never can be himself at home again because he has changed because of the nature of war and a loss of his innocence regarding what he has to do to stay alive.

How do you think familiar becomes alien?

Bentley wrote: "Baseni, an excellent point. When you live and die together, your allegiance seems to change.

Why does he think that he no longer fits? How has he changed inside?

I often wonder if a soldier ..."

In German we say it's a common destiny. Loyalty and sacrifice are the purpose of life. The war welded together the comrades.
At home everything is superficial. The father is interested in atrocities, the beer garden acquaintance wants to hear nothing from the war. They make their own war. They fantasize about strategies and annexations. They have no eye for reality. They lived in the period of Biedermeier.
Baumer does not fit into this world. The world is to narrow of mind, this is similar to his little suit. A fighter in a confirmation suit.
Even his own room is strange to him. He wants to see again until after the war.
Baumer had a year earlier also a holiday, because it was different. At that time he was with a reserve force. This did not fight. His recollections were different then. Therefore, he well felt at home. This time it's different, he returns from the front.

Baseni,

What an interesting post. Tell me a little bit about your perspective on Biedermeier.

Here is a wikipedia article for those unfamiliar with him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermeier

It is interesting that you say that "loyalty and sacrifice are the purpose of life." Is this something that all Germans believe or are you referring to this belief based upon the World War I time period?

I often wondered if the family and acquaintances were making small talk because they were afraid of steering too close to those topics that had real intimacy. Being so removed from what was actually going on in the war makes you think that they would actually want to know the truth of the realities versus what they conjure up in their own mind.

Sometimes I think different people at different times have various ways of handling stress and troubles in their lives.

I can relate to Paul in a very small way. Every time I come "home" it does not feel like home anymore. It is more than just new buildings, roads, etc., but I changed; I have become disconnected from things.

Paul has seen so much and done so much than his whole worldview is altered.

We see this in all wars; I think of the great movie, "The Best Years of Our Lives," and the difficulty some of those characters had to deal with coming home.

That is very interesting Bryan. Why do you feel that way? Is home a place in time versus where you live or do you not have an attachment to a place for different reasons. I think of home as a place where my stuff is and the people and things I love and I am familiar with. My old hat, socks, comfy shoes, you know the drill that I can't wear out in the working world but that I can curl up in my cocoon and relax with no judgement calls.

Does the stress of life in the 21st century breed that disconnectiveness. And Paul felt disconnected from his home now more than at any time of his life. I guess he changed because of what he was forced to handle.

Maybe coming home makes folks think about what they lost or do not have or innocence lost forever and thinking about it all of the time would bring more pain and grief versus just floating in mid air in a bubble.

Bentley wrote: "That is very interesting Bryan. Why do you feel that way? Is home a place in time versus where you live or do you not have an attachment to a place for different reasons. I think of home as a pla..."

Yeah, I think in that case, it is a period in time: junior high through college. I try to see my life through those lenses, and it does not seem to work. Many people have left, the physical town has changed, it has moved on like myself.

I think for Paul, things are the same and he has changed. For my town, both have changed and it is hard to reconcile both of those just as much as one of them, I suppose.

I can see your point; your view of home changed on you not vice versa and then you grew up, had different experiences which took you beyond your home base so really nothing was the same with the physical town or you - both had disappeared. Sort of like a man without a country or in your case - town (smile). Where I grew up has changed too - different environment, different population and ethnic backgrounds, even down to the traffic patterns. In fact how is this for change, I went back to look at my elementary and junior high school and it had been demolished; the only thing left was a plaque!!!

For Paul maybe things at home had stayed the same and his heart and soul had changed.

All,

Elizabeth S has been just able to send a brief message from her library - at her home she is without internet and phone access and has had this issue for a few days. She has not forgotten about all of you; but is unsure how much longer this will take to be resolved.

I will carry on with the discussion until her return.

Bentley

Bentley wrote: "Baseni,

What an interesting post. Tell me a little bit about your perspective on Biedermeier.

Here is a wikipedia article for those unfamiliar with him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermeier..."

The term "Biedermeier" after the German Wikipedia:
"After 1900, the first negatively connoted term Biedermeier was perceived more value-neutral, it was for a petty-bourgeois culture of domesticity and the emphasis on the private."
Biedermeier also means uncritical attitude to politics and government. The people were looking for the cosiness.
With "loyalty and sacrifice are the purpose of life" I meant the camaraderie at the front. The beer garden comrades say something also. The best foods to go to the soldiers, the people solidly behind the fighters, etc., but there are empty phrases. This is also feeling Bäumer. The People are strange to him.
I think that Bäumer his home, his city and his neighborhood already recognizes. Only the feelings that arise from this awareness and the past are strange to him.

Thank you so much Baseni for that explanation. Paul obviously felt closer to his fellow soldiers because everybody was going through what he was going through and words were unimportant - feelings and actions and empathy were what was paramount.

When Paul was home he probably wondered how he ever was part of that world and now feels ill at ease because he cannot embrace that which he left and at one time loved any longer. And all of these folks who are left behind even though they have the very best of personal intentions create more of a distance between Paul and themselves.

Also, thank you for your interpretation of Biedermeier (the term versus the person).

I do not know whether it belongs here? Remarque processed in the description of Baumer's leave from the front his personal memories of his hometown. He describes Osnabrück, his birthplace. The roads and sites have different but similar names.
I just read in a different context by the enthusiasm of the Germans at the beginning of WWI. No one believed at August 1st, 1914, that the war would go longer than Christmas. The volunteers, older school boys, students and young workers were afraid that the war was over before they finish their training as soldiers.
War was for the Germans a speedy operation. Since Napoleon, wars were all won within months, against Denmark, Austria and France for example. That's why the veterans in the beer garden did is also no understanding of the trench warfare. For them the war was more an adventure than a disaster which swallows up men and material.

Great post, Baseni. I think you are right, the "old-timers" did not understand this new kind of war at all. Germany did have a string of quick successes to shape their personal experience. Can you image what they would say if they saw what Paul did?

Bryan wrote: "Great post, Baseni. I think you are right, the "old-timers" did not understand this new kind of war at all. Germany did have a string of quick successes to shape their personal experience. Can you image what they would say if they saw what Paul did?

I think that is exactly why Remarque wrote this book. He wanted the people at home, the people who saw the war as an adventure, to know what it was like. Remarque couldn't take them to the front, but he could use his talent to tell them what it was like.

As you can see, I am back. We were without internet access for the last 5 days. (Kinda like being back in the stone age.) But we are connected again, and I've got a lot of catching-up to do. :)

Thanks to Bentley, Bryan, and Baseni for keeping the conversation going!

Elizabeth S wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Great post, Baseni. I think you are right, the "old-timers" did not understand this new kind of war at all. Germany did have a string of quick successes to shape their personal expe..."

In some ways he did take us all to the front and as they say: The pen is mightier than the sword.

Elizabeth S wrote: "As you can see, I am back. We were without internet access for the last 5 days. (Kinda like being back in the stone age.) But we are connected again, and I've got a lot of catching-up to do. :)..."

Thank goodness you are back.

Below are the notes I made when I finished this portion of the book about 2-1/2 weeks ago but now I have had the opportunity to see all the remarks and would comment that this time home for leave Paul comes home from a deadly experience. – Coming home one could settle in and reorient but Paul must go back – and it is grim – so that is probably a big part of why he is not content.

I also wonder now, after reading your comments and a couple of weeks for this to brew in my mind why was his father not more concerned for the safety of his son.

Week 8 notes – second part of Chapter 7

Now Baumer goes home and is really feeling his growing rift from the country/community and people that he had left the last time he was on leave (before their first severe fighting) as his separation from his comrades at the front.

He also sees/experiences that the people behind the lines, seemingly except for food shortages, are living a somewhat normal life while he and his buddies are dying and bleeding.

He experiences his mother probably in the end part of her life.

That as a soldier he can get more food than his family, even while on leave, is an unexpected eye opener.

Baumer’s experience with the major, who maybe never served at the front, was an example of the division between the front and the civilian world.

The headmaster and his father who want to share his ‘glory” on the front are interesting in that they do not seem to care really about Baumer. Only his mother was more concerned for Baumer that for other things.

And Baumer’s visit to Kemmerich’s mother is another grim task he must do, for his friend and the mother, who causes him to feel that he will be more comfortable back at the front.

It is a hard hard road that Baumer is going down.

Just a note is that I have known several men who had been in war and none of them who actually fought have ever shared those war experiences with me – or to my knowledge to anyone else.

Great notes, Vince, thanks for sharing them. There really is so little about Baumer's father that it is easy to forget he even exists. The focus is on the mother and Baumer's "eldest sister." Do we even hear about anyone else in the family? Calling his sister the "eldest sister" suggests there is at least one more sister. We don't even know if this sister is older or younger than Baumer, unless something was lost in the translation.

The biggest thing that hits me as I reread this section of the chapter, is that each person who we meet gives us a different example of what NOT to do with a soldier home on leave from the front. Don't take him out for a beer and celebrate the war, don't whine that he didn't salute smartly, don't tell him how you would run the war, don't cry on him, don't ask for the "fun" stories, don't blame him for someone else's death, and don't ask him to tell you how it really is at the front.

The only person that Baumer is glad to see is his old buddy, and that is because his old buddy has been there himself. Remarque is really focused on showing all the horrible things that can happen to a young man in the war, even going home. There isn't much hope here, is there. As we've talked about before, Remarque is doing a great job of showing all the negative aspects of war.

Baseni wrote: "I do not know whether it belongs here? Remarque processed in the description of Baumer's leave from the front his personal memories of his hometown. He describes Osnabrück, his birthplace. The road..."

Thanks for all your comments, Baseni. Your last comment fits here nicely. It is interesting that Remarque describes his hometown well enough for it to be recognized. Just about everything else in the book is general enough that we can't pin down which battles or areas of the front Baumer is at. This section of the book also seems the most autobiographical to me, as if Remarque is giving Baumer the same experiences Remarque had when he went home on leave.

Elizabeth S wrote: "The biggest thing that hits me as I reread this section of the chapter, is that each person who we meet gives us a different example of what NOT to do with a soldier home on leave from the front. ..."

Good post Elizabeth and oh so true.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Great notes, Vince, thanks for sharing them. There really is so little about Baumer's father that it is easy to forget he even exists. The focus is on the mother and Baumer's "eldest sister." Do we even hear about anyone else in the family? Calling his sister the "eldest sister" suggests there is at least one more sister. We don't even know if this sister is older or younger than Baumer, unless something was lost in the translation...."

No, nothing in the translation is lost. Erna is his oldest sister. Here Remarque describes his own family. He had two sisters, Erna and Elfride. The German text says that Erna is the older of two sisters. Whether she is older than Paul, is not said.

Elizabeth S wrote: "The biggest thing that hits me as I reread this section of the chapter, is that each person who we meet gives us a different example of what NOT to do with a soldier home on leave from the front. ..."

It is kind of a "Born on the Fourth of July" moment where Ron Kovic comes home and does all this stuff that he doesn't feel right about. Then he meets his old buddy who was over there and can connect. Truly universal theme here.

Baseni wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "Great notes, Vince, thanks for sharing them. There really is so little about Baumer's father that it is easy to forget he even exists. The focus is on the mother and Baumer's ..."

Is Erna the name of Remarque's sister, or a name of Baumer's sister mentioned in the German text? (Or both?) I don't remember an name in the English version, but maybe I missed it. You know a lot about Remarque, Baseni!

Bryan wrote: "It is kind of a "Born on the Fourth of July" moment where Ron Kovic comes home and does all this stuff that he doesn't feel right about. Then he meets his old buddy who was over there and can connect. Truly universal theme here."

For any traumatic experience, I would think it helps to talk to people who you feel really understand what you went through. Part of the hard thing about war is that so many of the people who understand are, well, dead.

Elizabeth S wrote: "(...)Is Erna the name of Remarque's sister, or a name of Baumer's sister mentioned in the German text? (Or both?) I don't remember an name in the English version, but maybe I missed it. You know a lot about Remarque, Baseni! ..."

Both. Erna is the name of Remarque's sister and in the novel the name of Paul's sister. Remarque's second sister Elfriede was executed in 1943 by the Nazis. She is "Wehrkraftzersetzung" (undermining military morale) accused. Freisler, Hitler's chief judge and chairman of the "Volksgerichtshof" (People's Court, sorry, I have not a better translation) said: "Your brother has escaped us, but you will not escape us."

Quotation: "I smile and point to the things I have brought. "Not always quite as much as that, of course, but we fare reasonably well."
Erna takes away the food. Suddenly my mother seizes hold of my hand and asks falteringly: "Was it very bad out there, Paul?"

Thanks, Baseni. I did miss the mention of the name! That is a lot of the fun of rereading a book. At least for me, I generally notice more little details each time I read. And part of the fun of discussing a book with others--because other people can point out some of those details.