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The Archives > Kvothe and the odd favors at the Waystone (theories)

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message 1: by Adam (new)

Adam | 95 comments I have been rereading Notw and listening to the audio book (narrated by Nick Podehl, not that it matters).

I heard theories that Kvothe is laying a trap for someone, or something at the Waystone.
I think it has to do with the Chandrian. I am not sure the purpose, but here are some thoughts.

The Brass Bound barrels are so they don't fall apart and rust, like the Iron pump handle at the farm in trebon, or the wheels on his troupes wagons. Brass doesn't have iron so it won't rust like Iron or steel.
One of the signs of another Chandrian is rotting wood.
The Rowan wood, used as a mounting board for his sword folly, may not rot because of the woods special properties. The same properties that cause it to be used in fires for destroying demons.


message 2: by Gregory (new)

Gregory Lynn (gregory_lynn) I thought the brass barrels were because Bast doesn't like iron and he just told the cooper that because he couldn't tell the truth about Bast.

Did they say something about the Rowan wood not rotting?


message 3: by Sanjiv (new)

Sanjiv | 429 comments (a month late) I like the idea of Kvothe setting traps in case anyone comes for him, but what you describe don't seem like traps. Is Kvothe friends with someone similar to the Chandrian?

@ Rasputing: I agree about Bast.


message 4: by John (new)

John (gigalew) | 3 comments I got the same as Rasputin about the barrels


message 5: by Mike (new)

Mike Thicke (mikethicke) | 12 comments All of Bast's efforts to jolt Kvothe back to his old self wouldn't make sense if this was true, and neither would Kvothe's seeming inability to use sympathy anymore, his apparent reluctance to play music, and his frustrations in writing his memoir himself. Sure, maybe Bast just isn't in on the plan, but it still pretty much destroys the entire premise behind the "present day" narrative.


message 6: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I always thought the barrels were just for Bast as well. However I have also always thought the maybe Kote is planning for his death or something.

Obviously, by telling this story, the Chandrian, given they are still alive are going to be showing up at the Waystones door step. I mean, Kote hasnt gone anywhere and he's been speaking about them, telling stories about them and even using their real damn names like nobodies business. So in my opinion at the third day, Chandrian might be showing up to dispose of this dilemma. Could this be Kote's way of suicide? Just throwing it out there.


message 7: by Sanjiv (new)

Sanjiv | 429 comments I'm a fighter (metaphorical), but I'm kind of in a funk right now. So I respect that one can be strong headed, and resourceful in a moment, but lacking direction in the medium to long term.

I don't think Kote's trying to commit suicide, but I also don't think he's afraid of dying. He may lack direction and perspective, but he's still going to do what he feels is the right thing in a moment--be that protecting the town from Scrael, or punching some soldiers in the face. The fact that he lacks proper concern for his well being is just an indication that his heroism is on auto-pilot, rather than directed towards any larger purpose.


message 8: by Kaye (new)

Kaye  (carrymeaway) | 241 comments isn't the hole point of being fearless just that you're not afraid to die... i think that's Kvothe is fearless, he's already lost everything before and he got up from that.... maybe now he is just waiting to die because he has nothing left anymore...


message 9: by Sanjiv (last edited Apr 16, 2012 12:37PM) (new)

Sanjiv | 429 comments Kvothe may be fearless now, but he certainly wasn't fearless when he had things to lose...His lute, his life, and Denna, back in the day.

In his retelling of the story, he seems scared a lot. He doesn't seem so scared at the inn.


message 10: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Well, I can agree I think he lost all of the things you listed Sanjiv.

Moving on (Sorry) I was just thinking about Folly the sword he has at the bar. Bast seems almost embarrased by it. I was pretty sure it said the sword was made of copper, which is actually a terrible metal to make a sword out of, in my opinion. I have a couple theories here, first the maybe the sword was what Abenthy was really telling Kvothe to beware of (Beware of Folly is what it says in his book) and maybe the sword is actually cursed. I had a character in D&D with a cursed sword, I couldnt even set it down, it was freakin' awful. Thinking of that made me think of Folly. So their is theory number one.

Theory number two is something along the lines of Adam's above, that Kote is setting a trap. I actually looked up Copper on Wikipedia, since I didnt actually know much about it other than it's pretty soft. But Copper is actually resistent to oxidation, the green patina you sometimes see on old copper is actually protecting the copper from further corrosion. I found this extremely interesting. That would suggest that if some chandrian showed up, Kote would have a weapon. Also I noticed while reading through this copper has a high thermal conductivity, actually the second highest among pure metals at room temperature. I found this interesting, since sympathy actually seems to require a lot of heat. I noticed that Kvothe is constantly using his own body heat for sympathy and such a sword could really magnify his abilities because it is extremely conductive of heat. (I found this engrossing honestly.) Another point I found interesting in the article was that if copper is placed against other metals it will cause galvanic corrosion. (which is a lot to explain, so look it up if you dont know what I'm talking about, I had to read for 30minutes to get it. PR is making me so much smarter.)

After that I found something else that could apply and it was the copper taken in extreme amounts have been used in the past for suicide attempts. This can cause copper toxicity, which Kote doesnt seem to have the symptoms of, but still thought it was interesting.

However, none of that really explained why Bast seemed so embarrased of the sword.


message 11: by Sanjiv (last edited Apr 18, 2012 01:53PM) (new)

Sanjiv | 429 comments In another thread, some of you were discussing copper, and why a web of it was part of the wall meant to keep someone like Elodin trapped--It basically interfered with Elodin breaking down a stone(?) wall.

So clearly copper is relevant to dealing with either sympathy users or perhaps namers in some way--A copper sword might have some significance in relation to a sympathy user or a namer.

Beyond that, I can only speculate based on the kinds of adventures Kvothe's been on before. I presume a misunderstanding (or folly) was involved. Kote, now, is a humble man, as well as one who loves stories. I can clearly imagine him keeping the sword on display so he can laugh at some of his old mistakes, or because it's the result of some amusing story, that perhaps Bast takes a bit more seriously (so I'd imagine it's related to something Bast is superstitious of).


message 12: by Reedmatthews (new)

Reedmatthews | 12 comments I like these ideas with the copper sword. Very interesting. Firstly, I doubt firmly weather the sword hanging at the bar is really named Folly. I think it's a symbol. It's how Kvothe feels about the sword. According to his Adem training, is perceptions of swords and their uses and his desires for them are folly. Taking up the sword is folly. Seeking battle, the sword, is folly?

The copper. That is very interesting. You're right, copper seems to interfere with powerful naming or have an effect on their power. Notice Elodin is careful not touch the copper wiring but beats it apart with a chair. Perhaps that is Bast doesn't like the sword. It interferes with his natural ability. Not binds like iron but makes it fuzzy or out of tune. Also notice that we have yet to hear of artificing done with any copper, right? Maybe copper negates or resists sympathy as it relates to sygauldry but still conducts.? These are all speculations. Odd and especially considering the barrels with copper. I was thinking how odd his explanation was. Copper for barrels, I'm not sure it would hold the stress for very long with out stretching. I think Kvothe is surrounding himself with useful, everyday items that can protect him or can be used to battle the Renti. Perhaps that's the challenge. That's why he's locked himself away. Parted with his power. Not because he caused disaster, he's preparing for it, he's calling it out, bringing it to him. Maybe he's learned that he can't defeat the Chandrian with his great powers but with simple things like the "farm-wise wives who know 'their' games" or something like that. I like the idea that he hasn't crippled himself because he's done something bad but rather he's crippled himself enough to draw his enemy into a trap. That's why folly is at hand. It's a statement. Walk into Kote's bar and it is disaster for you. You only find folly. Kote is serving disaster at the bar. I think it's back to basics. The waystone...safe places on the road, doors or symbols into fae but safe supposedly for travelers, simple superstitious people. Copper, the sword, the carelessness with Names, the visitors. Expect disaster(Kote)one in every seven. How many guests(not locals) have we had a the bar so far? Chronicler, Bast(maybe), Skin-changer, 2 soldier theives, ....whose next? Maybe our 7th guest is disaster? Maybe one of the 7? Cinder perhaps? Someone is inviting disaster, I think Kote is setting the table and will break his visitor and step out as Kvothe again after. I think Kvothe/Kote has locked himself in a room, chained up his power and is waiting and is nervous. He keeps trying to reopen the door, get his power back. He might be regretting his decision, his plan but I believe he's the bait and needs to be bitten for the trap to snap on his prey. I like it.


message 13: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Reedmatthews wrote: "I like these ideas with the copper sword. Very interesting. Firstly, I doubt firmly weather the sword hanging at the bar is really named Folly. I think it's a symbol. It's how Kvothe feels about th..."

Thats a good point. The way Kvothe goes about use of his sword, (and possibly how he kills a king eventually) may not be of the Lethani. Which would be folly. At least for him. He has always seemed to have a problem with sticking firmly to these teachings, in my opinion. (Or more over, that he has a different view point on them)

However, I dont really agree that Kote is serving disaster at the bar...unless you mean disaster for himself. He was nearly killed by those theives, couldnt even use sympathy to stop the skin walker, lost of one of his only patrons because of this. Which is something I dont think he'd ever intend. I feel he is hiding out, intending to die, which is why he is giving Chronicler this story.

Due to a lot of parellel story telling, I've also thought that maybe Kvothe cant die? Similar to Lanre? Or maybe instead of being like Lanre and seeking out the power to bring his loved on back, he is going the opposite way. Seeking to lock his power up so it will be more easy for him to join his love in the land of death?

Yah, okay...I'm stretching.

Back to copper now. I'm also extremely interested in knowing why it seems so perilous to namers. To bad we really do not have much information about that magic yet. Considering a lot of the magic PR presents has some basis in actual science though, we could probably make some educated guesses...

Maybe it amplifies other powers, or maybe simply, Elodin doesnt know the name of copper, and the rest of the masters knew that.


message 14: by Tobias (last edited Jun 17, 2012 05:16AM) (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments So, since there's this recent post by Pat where he commends someone on being a very careful reader when it is found out that copper is a good weapon to kill a namer, I did some PDF digging.

What we have is that there's no real reference to copper being dangerous, but it has following properties and mentions:

a) [redacted after re-reading]
b) Taborlin the Great had a sword made of copper. To use against whom? I can't find it being mentioned specifically. (And I just now can't find where it is said that Folly is, supposedly, a copper sword.)
c) The Four-Plate Door is stone and copper, and the tower prison is stone and copper. Seeing how they're at places of 'magic' and to be helpful against practitioners, it's obvious that they have a warding effect against at least one kind of magic.
c.1) The copper stays unaffected by naming, even as much as to stay in the air (while loosely interwoven) when the stone is liquified.
c.2) He uses the chair leg to batter the copper away, but then again, if the veins are somewhat thick, as a normal person, you'd also choose something to clobber it to pieces instead of just trying to tear it apart, wouldn't you?
d) One of the exam questions is on the thermal efficiency of copper, so we can assume it can be worked with Artificery or similar.

So what I assume here is that the name of copper isn't known (for whatever reason). I'd instinctively say we can assume that everything has a name, some just aren't discovered.

And when the prison was built, it was _assumed_ that nobody knew the name of stone - obviously, Taborlin outfoxed them.
Alternatively, copper was the first metal to be easily manipulated by mankind, so it might just have been that bronze or iron working wasn't around when someone first bothered building that secure prison, and that it being able to stump namers was entirely coincidental.

If we work on the basis that either the name for copper isn't know _or that it can't be named_, copper would make an ideal choice for a weapon to be used against a namer, as all the other metals could just as easily be melted as (Taborl|Elod)in did with the stone.


message 15: by Abhilash (new)

Abhilash Mahadevan (axms_92) | 10 comments Amber wrote: "Well, I can agree I think he lost all of the things you listed Sanjiv.

Moving on (Sorry) I was just thinking about Folly the sword he has at the bar. Bast seems almost embarrased by it. I was pr..."


Could you explain why having a good conductor of heat/electricity in your hands enhances your sympathy? Energy still has to be drawn from a source, and using the Alar a sympathist can create pathways of energy change already (that's kind of the whole point of sympathy isn't it?) A good conductor is merely a fast, mayhap more efficient pathway that can only accomodate heat and electricity transfer, while the sympathy links duplicates the same and can trigger any sort of energy interconversion at the speed of thought.The most common is mechanical; in real life, heat to motion transfer requires an enclosed gas cylinder, piston, crankshaft, gears and assorted machinery (ergo, your car) and electricity to motion requires a motor. Sympathy in Pat's world are invisible copper conductors linking anything the sympathist chooses to link. Plus these links are superior to normal conductors in almost every way (you engrave a rune, that's it! no oiling, no monthly repairs, no servicing....just check on the rune from time to time and you're good)....so I just don't see why a copper sword makes a difference to a synpathist.....the deadly-to-namers deal sounds more interesting. Interestingly enough Brass is copper's alloy with zinc. Coincidence?


message 16: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
My thinking was along the lines of adding it in as a link might thus increase conductivity of heat that could be used to enhance a person's use of sympathy.

You sound more well versed in how something like this would work, so I'll lay my idea out and maybe you can deconstruct.

You how Kvothe (a lot of the times) uses his blood as a sympathetic link to create heat or something along those lines, and how in the duel he has with the other student he links (I believe) his blood and also the oven thing they have in class? (Another example is when Devi links to that lighter when she duels Kvothe) Well, I was thinking if you could create some sort of conductivity between and object you were linked to with a copper weapon that maybe a sympathist could thus magnify his power.

Does that make sense at all? LOL


message 17: by Abhilash (new)

Abhilash Mahadevan (axms_92) | 10 comments Here's a thought. When Kvothe's battling with his sword, if he's got a bit of his opponent's blood on his sword, he can probably use it as link to draw heat from his opponent's blood; whenever blood is used as link (during the duel with Fenton, or when the reagent explodes) people are shown to have physical contact with the blood to draw the heat. Maybe it's not physical contact but mere thermal contact that's necessary. In that case a copper sword would indeed be a useful tool to be carrying. Not only would the opponent be dead of hypothermia, but the heat from the blood would also be a good source to draw heat from. As I said, just a thought. Kvothe might have thought of it for his big battle with Cinder (do the Chandrian have blood, I wonder). Still doesn't explain why Taborlin had a copper sword though.


message 18: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Hey, thats a much better plan than mine! LOL I like it! I dont know if the chandrian do have blood or not, thats an interesting question. Is there any blood when Kvothe shoots Cinder with the arrow? I'm going to have to go read that part again now!


message 19: by Thomas (new)

Thomas | 29 comments I don't believe any blood is mentioned. I agree that there are properties of copper than interfere with naming. I like the idea stated above that the name of copper isn't known. Elxa Dal shows that when you have the name of something, and thus mastery over it, that it cannot be used to harm you. The name of iron could then be used to prevent any harm from being inflicted on you by iron and the metals of which it is a component.

I don't think that Elodin was physically unable to touch the copper, but just as Tobias stated it would make more sense for someone to use a tool to remove the mesh.

This is one of the things I can't wait to find out about personally.


message 20: by Abhilash (new)

Abhilash Mahadevan (axms_92) | 10 comments Thomas wrote: "I don't believe any blood is mentioned. I agree that there are properties of copper than interfere with naming. I like the idea stated above that the name of copper isn't known. Elxa Dal shows that..."

It's been a while since I last read the books so I could very well be wrong, but I really think I recall blood whenever warmth is drawn from it. When Kvothe duels with Fenton, at the end they open his palm and find blood in it. That's how they figure out he's drawn heat from blood. Also when Kvothe breaks the water tank in the fishery, he takes a piece of glass with a bit of his blood on it as the link. I don't remember the other instances of blood being used (does he use it during the bandit raid?) though I feel sure there must have been plenty other places where he draws energy from it. Could someone, with a Kindle version perhaps, check it up?


message 21: by Tobias (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments Searching through my copies:

Name of the Wind
* Fenton's blood, as you said.
* Fishery, symlinked blood on glass.
Wise Man's Fear
* Sticking a splinter of wood with his symlinked (a word that I propose for "sympathetically linked", and yes, I do UNIX) blood into a fire to banish the chills he got while handling the malfeasance by Ambrose.
* Symlinking his blood with a bowstring to snap the other archers' bowstrings at the ambush with Cinder.


message 22: by Thomas (new)

Thomas | 29 comments My comment was in regards to ambers question about cinder being shot.


message 23: by Tobias (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments There's no specific mention of blood when Cinder is shot, either. He just pulls out the arrow - and throws it into a fire.


message 24: by Abhilash (new)

Abhilash Mahadevan (axms_92) | 10 comments Thomas: I'm sorry I took it in the wrong context. :/
Tobias: Thanks pal. That's some research you've done there. And I like the hybrid you formed there....nothing quite like creating words that are meaningful only in a fantasy setting. So it's pretty conclusive that unlike when he does normal sympathy without using a separate energy source (when his arms, legs and other extremities go cold instead of just regular fatigue) he needs to physically stay in contact with the blood whenever he wants to draw energy from it, since you've specified no instance where he draws blood heat without doing so. So if the thermal-instead-of-physical-contact thing works out, then the copper sword may yet have a practical purpose. But somehow my gut intuition says the copper's got nothing to do with sympathy and everything to do with naming. Kvothe does become a formidable namer after all; the poem mentions he knew the names of at least ten elements, so it's perfectly plausible that he incorporates his martial skills into an essentially naming-based combat style (presumably against the Chandrian) This because Naming will easily be the greatest of his considerable talents


message 25: by Tobias (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments You're confusing it a bit, though... he's not «drawing» energy from his blood, he's putting heat from his blood into symlinked objects. It's not like the blood energy is "mana" or something, but without physical contact, two totally different objects cannot be easily linked.

He probably could do it without the blood being in contact, but that would diminish the efficiency greatly and, thus, make him waste the heat of the blood. (Blood and a wick, for example, don't have much in common, and thus the link would be high, but putting the blood on the wick, linking the body blood to the droplet of blood, and then linking the wick to the candle, while requiring two alar splits, is way more effective, since you're using a 1:1 link to transfer the heat)


message 26: by Tobias (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments And for the record, copper has pretty good thermal and electrical conductivity (hence copper wires).


message 27: by Tobias (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments (And copper heat sinks.)


message 28: by Abhilash (new)

Abhilash Mahadevan (axms_92) | 10 comments Tobias wrote: "You're confusing it a bit, though... he's not «drawing» energy from his blood, he's putting heat from his blood into symlinked objects. It's not like the blood energy is "mana" or something, but wi..."

You're saying energy heat is not like mana, I'm saying it precisely is. The entire sympathy and Alar are merely techniques of energy transfer without the messy intricacies that we deal with in real lives. That's the same thing I posted a few days back (just scroll up and read previous comments). Maybe the efficiency is bad and there's plenty of slippage but that's not our problem. That problem will be dealt with by the one using the copper sword, who will bother with the technicalities of where to put the energy from the blood.
Anyway the point of the idea is not to use the blood heat per se. That was merely an afterthought. The main idea was to drain the body heat. I don't care if Kvothe has a drop of his own blood in a block of ice which he symlinks with the opponent's blood, or whatever. The exact machinery he uses are none of my concern. He can probably think up a million ways to do that. You see, energy is very much like mana to be rearranged or redistributed with sympathy. Kvothe pretty much describes sympathy as energy "moneychanging". Energy conversion is the very essence of sympathy. The study of sympathy is in essence the study of thermodynamics. That's why sympathy doesn't feel like magic to Kvothe. Sympathy obeys all the laws of thermodynamics, unlike naming, which violates the second, and thus, the third laws.
Plus you're just theorizing that you need to be in full physical contact with the blood for links to be effective. Pat never explicitly says that. Hence my proposal that it need not be physical, but maybe just thermal, contact. Of course, all examples have physical contact, but physical contact automatically implies thermal contact. So maybe touching it THROUGH the copper, which also ensures thermal contact, might just be enough.
And for the copper conduction thing, for Chrissake we aren't kids. We ALL know copper conducts. Please do us the courtesy of reading through earlier posts. Amber posted a pretty detailed chemical analysis of copper, for instance. If you don't read earlier posts, you're making the rest of us spell everything out again, which pretty much is a waste of everyone's time.


message 29: by Tobias (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments You misinterpreted my mana statement. I just said that he doesn't "gather up" energy to use in any kind of combination like spells (i.e. a "heat up" spell), and that he's transferring energy thermodynamically.

I also said sympathy doesn't need any kind of contact, just that it would be stupid to use your blood without contact.

Please do us the courtesy of understanding other people's post for launching a diatribe and berating them.


message 30: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Sort of off subject - but sort of not.

Does Kvothe use his blood to "symlink" (love it) during the battle with the Draccus. I know he does some sort of sympathy with the water barrel to try and put out the fires but I couldnt remember if blood was used. Also when he kills the draccus does he use his blood then? God - I suck at remembering this crap and my moderate understanding of thermodynamics is seriously NOT helping. LOL.

- overall, at this point I'm starting to think that copper has more to do with naming, but for what reason it effects namers is completely unknown to me. I would understand that namers in the current times might not know the name of copper, but if no namer ever knew its name, I'm going to expect a real clear and good explanation why...


message 31: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Sooo - double post :P

Anyway, I was discussing this theory with some friends and gathered some interesting ideas.

Apperantly copper works well as a heatsink. Admittedly this a concept I know little about, but I think I have the general concept in my mind well enough to explain.

Since copper is a heat sink it wouldnt actually be able to magnify sympathy (bummer) but what it does do is it dissapates energy, letting it spread out more evenly and thus be less powerful.

For example, in your computer you have a processesor that is basically computer brains - attached to that you have a heatsink and a fan. The heatsink basically sucks up the heat your processor makes when it 'thinks' and then it spreads the heat out so the fan can blow it out of the computer box so it doesnt get hot and mess up your computer guts. (Basically)

Essentially - copper functions in the same manner, thats why electrical wires (which create a hot flow of energy) are usually wrapped in copper, so that the heat generated from energy can be spread out and wont be hot to the touch.

So...getting back around to my point.

Maybe copper does the same thing to "magic." Spreads it out and makes it less concentrated so that it isnt very powerful anymore.

I dont really know how this would help any situation - but its an interesting thought as to how copper could potentially be dangerous to arcanists.

Another theory that was brought up, is if copper does dissipate magic then maybe if a person were bound to copper for some reason, they would no longer be able to properly use their alar or practice sympathy or anything else for that matter. - So that could be a possiblity in regards to Kote's inability to use magic now...

At least I thought it was an interesting Idea even if it is pretty speculative.


message 32: by Thomas (new)

Thomas | 29 comments It would be a good material for slippage dissipation


message 33: by Tobias (last edited Jun 25, 2012 01:41PM) (new)

Tobias Wolter (mumpfpuffel) | 13 comments Amber, Kvothe constructs a heat eater by taking part of one of the burning buildings, enhancing it with some sygaldry, and then just dropping it into the cistern. He didn't use blood, but he symlinked the fires around town with his heat eater; said heat eater became a part of the system of all the fires, and began to heat up (as it shared the heat of the fires via symlink), but the water of the cistern cooled the (comparatively little) heat of the shingle he used. I'm not quite sure if the sygaldry was used as an amplifier or as a stabilizer.

I'm not quite sure how the copper would make the 'magic' dissipate - the only thing you could, probably, do is have a easy heat sink, so that by touch you could «store» much more heat in a symlink.

It's probably very practical for having something to easily shuffle lots of heat into which can then radiate away over a bigger surface area.

Alas, the other facts (i.e. the copper in the tower etc.) at least point at the fact that heat isn't the only consideration, as using heat or fire against the copper parts of the tower prison would not be the wisest of moves if you considered getting out of that tower alive.

On second thought, it might be sort of relevant that if you're not a namer, you couldn't use your blood to "melt" any part of the copper furniture to facilitate an escape. Then again, I'd assume that it'd also be pretty hard to do that with iron.

(I'm wondering right now why we're so anxious about having a "namer-proof" tower prison, for example, when the first version of the prison was beatable by using the probably not too uncommon name of stone.)


message 34: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Gods - I'm getting so confused right now.

Let see if I can pull my thoughts together in a way that makes sense.

From what I understand - the copper wouldnt be able to build up and store energy (or "magic") it would actually spread the energy out over the copper evenly and quickly release it. This is why some pots and pans have copper bottoms, it cooks your food evenly without letting one part of the pan or pot getter hotter than the rest. (This is especially useful if you have a gas range...not that it matters)

So, my idea was that if someone attempted to link it or even use naming on it (possibly) the power or energy of that magic would be spread out and thus actually be less powerful due to it being dilluted or stretched out from the copper reaction of making the energy even throughout itself and quickly releasing that energy so it doesnt build up.

That would actually mean, you couldnt melt the copper using sympathy (Not that you could anyway, I just checked and pure copper doesnt melt until 1981 degree F. thats just insane!)


message 35: by Paolo (new)

Paolo | 25 comments There's been a lot of discussion about copper, which seems to have originated from Amber's comment about the sword in the bar with the plaque reading 'Folly'. But that sword is described as being 'dull grey-white' in the text - most certainly not a colour associated with copper!

Tarbolin the Great did have a copper sword, but that may be no more than a narrative-within-narrative device to indicate his uniqueness, particularly in light of the fact that no-one would have a copper sword if they had any other metal available to them (that wasn't iron in the case of the Fae).

As to copper in the story, I expect it would be useful in sympathy and sygaldry since it is fairly easy to work and has low resistance, meaning that energy can pass through it efficiently (which is one of the reasons we use it so much in electronics). Interesting discussion!


Reads with Scotch  | 178 comments A lot to digest and think about.


message 37: by Ancapaillmor (new)

Ancapaillmor | 76 comments As for the trap theory, i like it. Someone one reddit mentioned bredon playing the beautiful game of tac, leading your opponent into a trap. What would be a more beautiful game than to make your opponent think your defeated a shell of your former self, lead him in to attack(he sings in the inn ealry in notw, the placing of folly in plain sight and naming the chandrian several times). Then surpise the mofo's with his kickass copper rims.


message 38: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Has he said a true name more than once besides Cinders?

I dont think he has. Which leads me to believe he's only looking for one chandrian. Just a thought, if it is a trap.

In all honesty, the more I read, the less I think the chandrian appearances have anything at all to do with their names being said.

We've only "witnessed" two chandrian attacks, and in the second, who in the world would know what names to be calling? I'm more prone to think the Chandrian were looking for something from Kvothe's mother. As she would have been the Lackless Heir had she not ran off with Arliden. Plus the Ctheah says the chandrian "had a reason" for attacking Kvothe's troupe.


message 39: by Eric (new)

Eric | 99 comments The Amyr depicted in the vase at the Mauthen farm had a Copper Shield. It certainly holds at least some significance.

I'd say it had to do with energy conduction but it interferes with naming as well (wall of Elodin's room in the Rookery).

Felurian says that to protect against the more menacing inhabitants of the Fae, copper knives would in some way be useful.


message 40: by Ancapaillmor (new)

Ancapaillmor | 76 comments Amber wrote: " In all honesty, the more I read, the less I think the chandrian appearances have anything at all to do with their names being said. "

I thought the same, something like someone squealed on the troupe, there was something in arlidens song that they didn't want out though.


message 41: by Eric (new)

Eric | 99 comments Ancapaillmor wrote: "Amber wrote: " In all honesty, the more I read, the less I think the chandrian appearances have anything at all to do with their names being said. "

I thought the same, something like someone sque..."


I assume it's their intent they don't want known.


message 42: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I'm not entirely sure it was Arliden they were after at all. But then again that would be quite the coincidence.

So it's really hard to say.

I am rereading WMF (again...) and I noticed when the Smith's boy comes in to get the supplies for him and Carter to go over to the next town and the Smiths Boy (Aaron?) says hes thinking of taking the kings coin he mention rebels and taxes and all that.

Think their is any connection with the rebels that Kvothe kills for the Maer?


message 43: by Carolina (new)

Carolina (qkicita) | 1 comments One question that comes to mind though..is Bast ashamed of the sword for himself or ashamed for Kote, considering Bast has a weird hero worship it is something to think about...


message 44: by Marcelo (new)

Marcelo | 1 comments I'm sorry, I'm new here and I did not find a better place to ask this.

So, I was reading some of the topics and started to re-read WMF (in portuguese, now I'm afraid of losing some info because of the translation, like the Natalia Lacklesss clue... =\ ).

In the first page, in the prologue, the book says something about Kote not being able to sleep at all. That made me think of how much he had sacrificed in his quest to destroy de Chandrian. He has some similarities with Haliax (discussed somewhere else), what if to destroy the Chandrian he had to become more and more like them??? So he wouldn't make a trap but masking his own signals??
Ok, now I'm worried...


message 45: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
Marcelo wrote: "I'm sorry, I'm new here and I did not find a better place to ask this.

So, I was reading some of the topics and started to re-read WMF (in portuguese, now I'm afraid of losing some info because ..."


In the English version, Bast sings to Kvothe while he sleeps in the first few chapters.


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