The Sword and Laser discussion

Well OK, sometimes, but who isn't on occasion?

Taken in relative terms, Tyrion is the least of the assholes in a Song of Ice and Fire. I would put him on par with Daenerys, both of whom have altruistic intentions but do some questionable things to accomplish their goals. I like Tyrion much more than Dany and he has much more reason to be bitter and misanthropic than she does.

I would argue that Tyrion acts the asshole only or mostly when he is being discounted simply for his appearance. He uses his wit, position as a Lannister and gold to put himself on a more even standing with his protagonist and very often besting them.

I give Tyrion a lot of credit for being a pretty good man despite a life of ridicule and humiliation, especially after experiencing the Tywin/Tysha thing. I very often compare my feelings about Ned Stark and Tyrion. I like them both, but Ned Stark seems like such a lunkhead in comparison, a lamb to the slaughter, a fate Tyrion would not so easily submit.

Tyrion is my favorite character and he really isn't an asshole unless he either has to or the other person really deserved it - at least that is my feeling throughout the book.

I agree with Eliaures that he had so much shit flung at him during his life that it's rather remarkable how decent a human he turned out. Start with a crappy father, psychopath sister and not really helpful brother and he could have turned out much, much worse.

I think the reason why I like Tyrion the most is that he always knows what he is doing and why. He does some shitty things from time to time but they are never without reason and while I probably wouldn't have killed Shae, it is at least understandable given that she basically helped condemn him to death. Half of the time (I don't have a percentage here, just gut feeling) he even feels sorry for the bad things he does but feels that he has no other choice.

I would like to add though that I think that Jamie is a lot like Tyrion but with the advantage of being handsome. He also seems to understand perfectly when he is doing something wrong, he just sometimes doesn't really care or sees no other way. At least when you compare the three siblings Jamie and Tyrion seem to have more in common character wise than Jamie and Cersei.

I agree with both of you. Tyrion is probably my favorite character in the series but I would argue that he can be an asshole, and that's why we like him so much.

Tyrion is the Hans Solo of this series. A lovable character, with a dark sense of humor. He appears to be out for his own gain but gets tied into other people affairs reluctantly.

There are characters that I would say are less Asshole(ish):

Jon for one. Jon has been more like Eddard Stark than any of his other children. An honorable man, but with more wits than his father.

Arya, Bran, Dany, Caitlin are all characters that I would describe as lesser assholes, but who I don't like as much as Tyrion.

Keith wrote: "Arya, Bran, Dany, Caitlin are all characters that I would describe as lesser assholes, but who I don't like as much as Tyrion."

Can we get a scale? I need some help visualizing all of this.

aldenoneil wrote: "Can we get a scale? I need some help visualizing all of this."

Haven't you been on the 'net long enough to know, never ask a question that can be answered with goatse?

I've been on the "'net" since Usenet and a Unix interface and I've never heard of "goatse".

I posted the original in response to Tom and Veronica stating that Tyrion is an asshole. I thought that characterization was too black and white for my tastes and though Tyrion has some questionable ethics and morality at times, he is more altruistic than most characters in this series. You have to make your own scale and on mine, Tyrion is pretty low on the asshole factor in A Song of Ice and Fire.

Tyrion, IS an asshole, but he's not evil. Ramsey Bolton is evil.

*edited. On a side note for some reason hearing names read instead of seeing them in print makes that harder to remember.

Eliaures wrote: "I've been on the "'net" since Usenet and a Unix interface and I've never heard of "goatse"."

You should perform a Google Image Search with Safe Search off.

Of course, I'm an even bigger asshole than Tyrion, so take that into account when deciding whether to follow my suggestion.

You should perform a Google Image Search with Safe Search off.

Bleh, an early, more disgusting form of rickrolling.

Tyrion CAN be an asshole when he wants to be, which is usually when he's drunk and pissed.

Tywin IS an asshole because he can be and only ares about his family.

Ramsey Bolton (who I'm guessing Andrew meant) is malicious, disgusting, and perverse. Evil? probably but GRRM doesn't cut and dry good v. evil in this series

Denis Leary - Asshole song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0...

Maybe Peter Dinklage can make a version. :)

Peter wrote: "Tyrion CAN be an asshole when he wants to be, which is usually when he's drunk and pissed.

Tywin IS an asshole because he can be and only ares about his family.

Ramsey Bolton (who I'm guessing Andrew meant) is malicious, disgusting, and perverse. Evil? probably but GRRM doesn't cut and dry good v. evil in this series "

Exactly. But what Eliaures isn't noting in their post is that I stated on the show that "Tyrion is more of an asshole in the books than I remembered him being, in part because Peter Dinklage is so likable on the show." Tyrion is probably my favorite character as well, and I know it's not so black and white. But neither was my statement.

Peter wrote: "Ramsey Bolton (who I'm guessing Andrew meant) is malicious...

Ramsey + Roose = Rayce Bolton?

Eliaures wrote: "Well OK, sometimes, but who isn't on occasion?

Taken in relative terms, Tyrion is the least of the assholes in a Song of Ice and Fire. I would put him on par with Daenerys, both of whom have ..."

I agree that Tyrion is one of my favorite characters as well. However, I think he appears less evil than he really is. The book is so full of evil and despicable people that in comparison Tyrion appears to have redeeming qualities. Instead of comparing him to other evil in the book, look at the things he has done. He participated in the group rape of his wife to start. Yes he thought she was a Whore, but who goes from loving someone one minute to raping them the next. I don't believe he loved her truly, but loved that she loved him.

I think a lot of what appears to be "good deeds" done by Tyrion is done out of pride, spite and rebellion against his father. I don't think Tyrion is motivated by a good heart, but rather is motivated not to be like his father. If Tywin had been a good man I think Tyrion would have been evil despite him.

Even after Tyrion finds out that his first wife was not a whore, I think he is grieved more by the fact he deprived himself of someone who loved him than in what he did to her. ***SPOILER**** In the fifth book, when he was with the "bed warmer" they young girl who seemed frightened by him, he was in a bad mood and decided to scare her and have her anyway while she was frightened and appalled by him. If he truly felt bad about what he did to his first wife he would not have been able to do that to another girl.

He appears to be decent when he doesn't sleep with Sansa Stark. But I don't think he did that for care of her, but rather because his pride will not let him sleep with someone he knows doesn't want him, or isn't paid for it. When he helps Penny, I think its our of a sense of repaying a debt rather than because he feels that bad for her brother.

Tyrion is a Lanister through and through.

He is still one of my favorite characters and is less evil than a lot of others.

I think much of our view of Tryion is colored by the fact that we can hear is internal dialog, the why he does what he does. And one of the reasons why Dinklage makes him more likeable. Also remember that much of the reason that people in the books don't like him, is because he's a dwarf and one with power, and much of the reason why his father hates him. If Tywin was more like Eddard there is no way that Tryion wouldn't have be despised, which is where much of Tryion's hatred for his father comes from.

In all honesty, aren't our past experiences responsible in large part for our present behavior and motivations? For what ever reason, whether motivated by animus towards his father or a need to right the wrongs done by his family, Tyrion very often does the "right" thing.

One of the things I love about GRR Martin is that he portrays his characters with (my definition) true humanity. They are rarely all good or all bad, and he leaves it up to the reader to make his own choice as to the level or "scale" of asshole you think that character represents.

We bring our own stuff to these characters. For instance I love Arya and I have great sympathy for her plight yet another might see a vicious little girl that kills with little remorse. I loathe her sister Sansa and have no sympathy for her situation. I see her as a betraying, narcissistic, tart yet I often have to remind myself that she was 12(?) years old when this all started so it's understandable when I reflect upon most tweeners.

I'm sticking to my view that Tyrion is a mostly good man whatever the motivations

The next Sword and Laser better be called 'Tyrion's Alleged Assholishness'.

Eliaures wrote: "In all honesty, aren't our past experiences responsible in large part for our present behavior and motivations? For what ever reason, whether motivated by animus towards his father or a need to ri..."

You make good points Eliaures. We all bring our own experiences into our judgments on people. I love Arya, but I cant empathize with her wanting to be a fighter instead of a Lady. I can see how she became who she has. Sansa I do not particularly like or dislike. I think she is a sad little girl who is exactly what she was raised to be, a Lady. She isnt strong or cunning. I think she is one of the most realistic characters though. I have great sympathy for her plight. She isn't particularly bright and is in a situation way above her head. A friend of mine who has only seen the TV Series and not the book thinks she is ambitious and all about her own power. I would say absolutely not. Sansa does not want to be Queen for power. She wanted Joffrey because she thought he was beautiful and gallant. Going to court, being friends with the princess, the tourney, having a handsome prince come to her defense and spend time with her is everything she ever dreamed. Arya says Sansa isn't good with figures or her studies but she is beautiful, can sing and play the harp. Sansa lives in a dream world. She is a child of summer and has never been taught of betrayal growing up in the honorable Winterfell. I'm sure she believes every man is like her father. She went to the Queen because she did not want to lose the love of her life, her sweet prince. If her father did not shelter her, if he told her what the Lannister's did the danger they were in she never would have done it. Sansa had never defied her father before. At 12 she was given everything she ever dreamed of from stories and then was told it was all being taken away and not given a reason why. I would have gone to the queen in instant if it had been me.

-Sorry for making this thread about Sansa I hope I'm not breaking the forums etiquette.

Amy wrote: "Instead of comparing him to other evil in the book, look at the things he has done. He participated in the group rape of his wife to start...."

I don't think Tyrion believed he was raping her. His father told him she was a whore, paid her money, and from the sense I got, forced Tyrion to take part. Not that the situation isn't despicable, but I think Tywin is the despicable one, not Tyrion.