Victorians! discussion

This thread is to discuss the section of the novel chapters titled “Three Editors” through “The Bishop and the Priest.” Please limit spoilers to this section of the reading only.

The discussion sections are divided simply by page count this time. The sections are laid out for a 6-week discussion time frame. The discussion is self-paced, however, so faster readers will likely move ahead with the discussion into the next threads as they wish. Of course, this is why it is important that you only discuss the portion of the story as it has developed up to that specific discussion section only -- no spoilers.

Please let us know if you have any other questions about the format of the discussion.

Thank you, thank you for participating in our group reads. Many of us have been looking forward to this one I know!

When I began, I did not know what this novel was about, so I didn't know what should be of interest to me later. That always happens to me and I highlight much more in the beginning than later when I'm more apt to let the story just flow over me. So .....

Chapter 1, with the introduction of Lady Carbury and Mr. Broune: When a man has kissed a woman it goes against the grain with him to say the very next moment that he is sorry for what he has done. It is as much as to declare that the kiss had not answered his expectation. Mr. Broune could not do this, and perhaps Lady Carbury did not quite expect it.

and a few sentences later: Of course when struggles have to be made and hard work done, there will be little accidents. The lady who uses a street cab must encounter mud and dust which her richer neighbour, who has a private carriage, will escape. She would have preferred not to have been kissed;--but what did it matter?

I'm pretty sure I thought Trollope was using these lines as observations on society at large, The Way We Live Now, as much as to the characters to which they refer.

I have just completed the first two chapters (of 100 that there are) and I do like Lady Carbury. She seems astute and well aware of how to get ahead in this Victorian world. I like her and the fact that she is an writer who is cajoling the publishers of the newspapers to print her writings. Right now, she seems to be quite spunky.

I can't say as I like Matilda Carbury, but Trollope is doing another beautiful job of introducing us to his characters and it looks like setting up a story that will involve the generations dealing with each other.

Elizabeth, that one line about "the lady who uses a street cab must encounter mud and dust..." was good writing I thought too. I think we are seeing that Lady Matilda Carbury will brush off a few unpleasant things to get to her ultimate goal. I wonder if the kiss was heartfelt from Mr. Broune?

I am also very early in the reading and hope will move ahead today. Some contractors are actually showing up today so I have some added distraction to my already busy week.

Trollope does present the characters so well. I so like the way he makes the reader think that he is directly speaking to them.

Sir Felix seems to be really something, spoiled, self centered, egotistical, certainly not a character one could admire. Poor Marie!

I am always somewhat taken aback in these novels of the demeaning way in which the Jews are mentioned and of course the jockeying for "suitable" mates.

I actually feel sorry for Matilda because she cannot cut ties with her worthless son, Felix. The passage below was an excellent commentary on the situation.

Henrietta had been taught by the conduct of both father and mother that every vice might be forgiven in a man and in a son, though every virtue was expected from a woman, and especially from a daughter.

Does this sentiment hold true today? I believe there are some instances such as with teenagers being sexually active. For a boy, he is "sowing his wild oats", but for a girl she is "loose". I don't think they should be doing that stuff till marriage, but I'm a bit old fashioned. ;-)

I am not far enough along in the story to know there is a question of Matilda wanting to cut ties with Felix. So far he has been presented as very much a proud product of her.

Are you asking if this sentiment is still literally true for general society? No, it is not true (if you are speaking of sexual virtue), but it was very much a Victorian idea. There may be some very skewed areas of society who hold to this -- "old school" as they say, but generally society is much changed in this category of behavior expectations.

Marialyce there must have been quite the history of Jewish prejudice in English society.

I'll have to pop back in later after more reading on the "Felix question." :)

SarahC wrote: "Are you asking if this sentiment is still literally true for general society? No, it is not true (if you are speaking of sexual virtue), but it was very much a Victorian idea.

Felix's vices don't really seem to be sexual in nature. He seems to be a spoiled young man with no motivation or appreciation. He reminds me of Edward Dorrit (Dicken's Little Dorrit) and a young Nicholas Rostov (Tolstoy's War and Peace).

Kyle wrote: "SarahC wrote: "Are you asking if this sentiment is still literally true for general society? No, it is not true (if you are speaking of sexual virtue), but it was very much a Victorian idea.

Felix..."

I didn't think so either Kyle, but I thought that is why you brought that up.

SarahC wrote: "Are you asking if this sentiment is still literally true for general society? No, it is not true (if you are speaking of sexual virtue), but it was very much a Victorian idea. There may be some very skewed areas of society who hold to this -- "old school" as they say, but generally society is much changed in this category of behavior expectations."

I think that very much depends on the age of the young woman. I am older, not much involved with young people, but I hear their parents and others. No, it is not yet accepted for young women still in high school to be sexually active. With boys, they tend to look the other way. Of course, I don't know who they think its OK for the boys to be having sex with ...

I was just using sex as a modern example of how our soceity does seem to forgive that vice in boys, but not in girls. Beyond that example, I was just curious what folks thought in general about the double standard Trollope noted.

I still do think, Kyle, that there still exists a double standard. You are right in saying that as a society, we seem to think it is "ok" for a boy to be sexually active, but not for a girl. There are various names that one assigns to a girl who is active sexually and none of them are the type that say "a boy will be a boy."

As for the Victorians, I once read that even though they were a repressed society sexually, that there was quite a large undercurrent of prostitution, pornography and the like going on. In what I have read so far, I see Felix pretty much getting away with whatever he can, while Henrietta seems to be held back and not involved in the social scene like her brother.

I like your analogy to Edward Dorrit and Nicholas Rostov, Kyle.

I agree that though there are hardly any likable characters, you still kinda like just being around them. I've never read Trollope before, and I am surprised at the amount of wit there is here.

Nick wrote: "I agree that though there are hardly any likable characters, you still kinda like just being around them. I've never read Trollope before, and I am surprised at the amount of wit there is here."

His wit is delightful. I think it gets better, though perhaps more sparse, as the novel continues.

I loved the opening of the book. I rather enjoyed reading Matilda's thoughts on the "Criminal Queens" and her describing the various different figures of her book. I think it is interesting to consider just how in the Victorian age these notorious historical figures may have been perceived in comparison today when we do have much more advanced knowledge and even more historical evidence and advances ways of research. I can only imagine just what the history books at that time may have been like. Also I think it is interesting how those personages seemed to have always been a source of fascination to people.

I myself cannot help but to like Matilda. I think she is quite amusing, and I like that bit of an independent streak of which she has. I really enjoyed the scene with Mr. Broune in which she manipulated him with the kiss and I loved her letters.

In regards to Felix, it seems to me that even today it is a common trait for parents to seem to tend to favor thier more wayward children, while the children whom are more responsible or more well behaved or more outwardly seem to have it together, it is taken for granted that they may not be as much in need of thier parents attention.

I've re-read Our Mutual Friend and Vanity Fair this year. I think it's interesting to compare the social criticism in each book. They are all about materialism and sham wealth but handled so differently. Trollope so far doesn't have the wit of Dickens or Thackeray but his characters seem more human in a way. I'm thoroughly enjoying the book and am looking forward to a nice long read.

So far I'm liking Squire and Henrietta Carbury quite a bit. Sir Felix reminds me a lot of George Sedley, Amelia's husband, in Vanity Fair.

I'm about half way through the first of four parts of the audio book and so much has happened already that I'm fascinated to see how Trollope will keep the story moving.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm at the moment at the seaside with very little time to stay on line. So i can't read your comments. I'll do when I'll be back in town. I just wanted to note how the same situation in a woman - i.e. Mrs Carbury here and Helen Graham in The Tenant of Wildfell Hall - can be described in such a difference of tones: Mrs Crbury simply left her husband when she couldn't stand the situation any longer; she culd even go back easily enough. And th whole of Anne Brontee novels is the hiding of this simpe fact!!! Is it because Trollope is a man?
And I also was thinking what would he say looking at our problems with the stock market . Italy these days is really "on balance"!!! What the writer seems to find so terrible is the fact that the shares are not backd with something "solid". And waht about us nowadays????

I thought Lady Carbury was a widow; that she derives some income from an inheritance, and that Felix is a baronet because it is an inherited title. I don't recall that she left her husband, but maybe I just glossed over that.

As to Felix: As yet the little world of his associates had hardly found out how callous were his affections,--or rather how devoid he was of affection. His airs and his appearance, joined with some cleverness, had carried him through even the viciousness of his life.

and

Whether Sir Felix be rich or poor, the world, evil-hearted as it is, will never think him a fine fellow.

In one of the earlier chapters, we find Lady Carbury left after years of abuse, but then returned when her husband was near death. Trollope paints this as a shame on her for leaving, which seems unfair given the bad treatment she was receiving at home.

Kyle wrote: "In one of the earlier chapters, we find Lady Carbury left after years of abuse, but then returned when her husband was near death. Trollope paints this as a shame on her for leaving, which seems u..."


I thought that was unfair too. I thought it was good of her to return in his time of need, which shows that she did have a heart, she just had to protect herself.

I agree with everyone that Felix is a spoiled and mean, but I find the parts about him to be the most enjoyable, with the possible exception of the parts with Hetta. He's so outrageous and over the top, that it's just funny to read.

In Chapter 15...
(view spoiler)[Roger Carbury unravels Lady Carbury's plot for her country visit to her dear cousin. He then proceeds to get "harsh" with Matilda for using him to get closer to the Melmottes and especially for allowing Felix to close in on his prey. Matilda turns on her fake indignation and threatens to leave, which results in Roger desperately apologizing so they stay.

I found this whole scene a bit ironic given that Roger earlier scolded Matilda for allowing Felix to take advantage of her, but it sure feels like Roger is doing the same thing to a lesser extent. (hide spoiler)]

Another thing from this section of reading...
(view spoiler)[Why do you think Roger and Matilda both feel like Roger's chances of matrimony are non-existent unless Henrietta accepts his proposal? (hide spoiler)]

Rachel wrote: I agree with everyone that Felix is a spoiled and mean, but I find the parts about him to be the most enjoyable, with the possible exception of the parts with Hetta. He's so outrageous and over the top, that it's just funny to read. "

I almost find myself liking Felix even though I don't really want to. I agree that he is a spoiled brat, and it is wrong the way in which he treats his mother and takes advantage of her and I disagree with how he conducts himself. Yet at the same time, there seems to be almost a certain charm about him, in the chapters dealing with him I just cannot help but to find him amusing.

At the moment I am pretty neutral about Hetta thus far I have not really seen much of her personality

Yes, I totally think he is mean and spoiled, but it is so amusing! He just worked his way into my liking.

Hetta seems like a very sweet person so far, however she does just go along with what her mother says about men, in regards to them being allowed to do everything they want even if it is very bad. I wonder if we will see her become a stronger character.

LauraT wrote: "As I've said elsewhere, I'm at the moment at the seaside with very little time to stay on line. So i can't read your comments. I'll do when I'll be back in town. I just wanted to note how the same..."

Funny you mention The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, I am reading that book at the same time. I did notice the similiar thing about men doing what they want while women can't, though I think that is the whole point of Wildfell, while I am not sure of the point of TWWLN yet.

Bea wrote: "I've re-read Our Mutual Friend and Vanity Fair this year. I think it's interesting to compare the social criticism in each book. They are all about materialism and sham w..."

I saw that comparison too with George and Felix.

I saw the parallel with Montgomery Dartie in The Forsyte Saga, although Dartie is married. But he is just as dissolute and worthless living off his wife as Felix is living off his mother.

I think all these characters are likeable in their own way and I think that's because Trollope has done an excellent job of making them seem real. Obviously, the time periods are very different but the characters are all portrayed in such a way that they make me feel like I've known people a bit like that. I've seen overly indulgent parents who produce spoilt children - often connected to the mother/son or father/daughter bond but that's a generalisation. Sometimes you do get a sibling who is a bit overlooked the way Hetta is.

Anyway, brilliant book. It's my first Trollope and I'm loving it.

Two characters emerge towards the end of this section that I enjoyed reading of. The first was Roger Carbury, who certainly is a straight talker where Lady Carbury is concerned.. I liked how he said Felix's coming to Carbury House was because "his prey" was close at hand. He seems to know his relations very well.

I also liked the introduction of the Catholic priest, Barham and the way in which Roger has accepted him even though his own family has cast him out.

Dolly is another spoiled son. My, these boys were indulged and catered to and allowed to grow up with a huge sense of entitlement. No good will come of this I feel.

I am also hoping that Henrietta wises up and grows to love Roger. He is the best male introduced thus far in my opinion.

Hi Marialyce, these get even more interesting as the book continues. I actually think many of the characters will be dynamic characters, evolving as the story goes. I really haven't read any background information on the story yet (I want to) but I feel that this novel may produce some interesting character evolution. I still think back to Orley Farm as a beautiful novel (that we discussed together) but am seeing this as a more impactful novel so far.

Roger is supposedly the reserved member of the family, but he certainly is plain spoken and he knows he has distanced himself from this only remain family of his because of that. I think Henrietta (Hetta) is being wise as she is, because regardless of Roger's strengths, to marry him at this point would be a little like just doing the family business -- the status quo of marrying the heir, you know? I like that she is trying to claim her right. And I do believe Roger's love for her is real, but maybe because she exceeds all the women he has ever known, which back then may not have been many.

Dolly is another one for sure. In a battle with his father over selling the land and what to do with the money afterward. He seems selfish and spoiled, but maybe a glimmer or something in next section -- maybe not! haha At least he does admit that he isnt terribly bright -- he's not deceiving himself in that way. And it keeps going back to the parents -- it is the elder Longestaffe who is out of money and bringing the Melmottes into their lives.

I don't care much for Roger so far, as he seems bent on marrying Hetta even though she has refused him. He needs to back off! I felt sorry for Paul when he and Roger had an argument over Hetta, as Paul seems so virtuous, ready to give up Hetta if she had shown any interest in marrying Roger. But since she hasn't, Roger needs to be a gentleman and leave her alone. And of course Hetta's mother is pushing her to accept!

I also loved the part where Roger had a talk with Felix, and how Lady Carbury woke him up early so he could be gone before Roger arrived. So funny. :)

Kyle wrote: "In Chapter 15...
[spoilers removed]

Another thing from this section of reading...
[spoilers removed]"

Good question, Kyle...perhaps it is because Roger thinks he can love no other....

I don't know how much Trollope means for the reader to "like" the characters. Personally, I don't find any of them likeable, but they are interesting. I find Lady Carbury to be infuriating. Her unwillingness to let her son Sir Felix find his own way, but instead let him continue to take advantage of her and her daughter is quite irritating. She wants to complain to Roger Carbury, but as Trollope lets us know, she has no intention of taking any of his advice. So far Roger seems to be the voice of reason and virtue in a cast of male characters who are rather careless with their dealings in money. The only problem I have with him is that he won't leave his cousin Henrietta alone. But who knows-- the outlook on the men in this novel so far isn't bright, what with their IOU shuffling and risky speculating-- maybe she would be better off with Roger than she thinks.

I thought it was interesting how Trollope at first leads us to believe that Lady Carbury is this dreaming novelist, and then by chapter 10 (I forget which chapter it was exactly), he reveals that she is doing it mostly for financial gain. She knows her work isn't very good, but she figures that really the only thing that matters is that the right people give her positive reviews in the right papers. And she isn't really even doing it for personal satisfaction, but so that she can continue to support her son's spending habits.

I agree with you, Kristen. There are so many unlikeable things going on here -- and not to end soon as the upcoming chapters seems to indicate! I am sympathetic at this point with Roger. I agree with what you are saying about his pushing Hetta. On the other hand, I think I relate to him as a person who has lost most of his family and stands alone much of the time. I imagine he was once a part of a more ethical circle of relations, and now times are changing and he is feeling the rug being pulled from under him. There are definitely things about Roger's situation that I can relate to. And thinking about the Roger/Hetta situation, the man pursuing the woman in this way would have been much more common at that time. To pursue, marry, love, and protect the girl was the thing. And he is clearly motivated to rescue her from that all-star of a brother of hers :)

Kristen wrote: "I thought it was interesting how Trollope at first leads us to believe that Lady Carbury is this dreaming novelist, and then by chapter 10 (I forget which chapter it was exactly), he reveals that she is doing it mostly for financial gain"

I liked the line about about Lady Carbury being more concerned with writing a popular book than a good book (paraphrasing).

I, too agree, but in their unlikeness, I do find some fascination. I think I am looking for then to fail.

I still do like Roger. I know that he is staid and ever so upper crust British, yet I can't help that I do appreciate his very staid way of thinking.

SarahC wrote: "I agree with you, Kristen. There are so many unlikeable things going on here -- and not to end soon as the upcoming chapters seems to indicate! I am sympathetic at this point with Roger. I agree ..."

Sarah, you put that in a whole new perspective for me. About Roger having lost his family and feeling the changes of the time (probably what the title refers to). I had thought of him being dreamily obsessed with Hetta, but now I think maybe he is just lonely and wants someone to be around him constantly. He genuinely loves her, but is more obsessed with the idea of loving and being loved. And that's very relate-able.

Yeeks! I just flagged a comment by mistake! I thought flagging was like bookmarking. I apologize to the person whose comment I flagged. I didn't mean it.

I'm also irritated by Roger's pursuit of Hetta. I've read a lot of Trollope in my time and it seems that that sort of behavior was common. Said another way, men (and society?) didn't seem to care much about what a woman wanted or felt.

I finally finished chapter 16 last night. phew! I may fall behind now and then. I've over-committed myself to group reads haha. I'm reading Dead Souls in a Russian group. Republic in a Western Canon group, and another book on my own that's taken me ages to get through. Yikes!!

Anyways, the novel is definitely becoming more interesting at this point. Maybe I'm "crusty" like Roger, but I thought it was in really bad taste for Lady Carbury to use Roger as a venue to get Sir Felix close to Ms. Melmotte. It also seems strange to me that she is basically the one pursuing the heiress, not Felix himself. I get the feeling he could care less about winning her, even if it's only for her money. Somebody needs to slap him around a bit.

Barbara, I really don't know what happens after you flag--even accidentally :)-- but we just won't worry about it. Did it delete the post?

Kristen, I suppose that Lady Carbury thinks gaining money through marrying one of the reputedly richest girls in town is just the perfect thing for Felix. Part of his problem may be that she has always done the thinking for him anyway, so this may just be more of the same. Just ahead there will be a twist to this part of the story, which is interesting. And Barbara, I am anxious to see also if Roger's feelings and concern for Hetta are true as the story plays out. Good stuff ahead!

"Did it delete the post?' No idea. I panicked and started clicking stuff to try to undo it, which was useless. By then, I'd forgotten which post I was trying to save. That's why I published an apology, I'm not sure what comes next.

About the money thing: as I read, I find myself worrying about Felix running through somebody else's hard-earned money. Seems to me, though, Papa Melmotte won't let that happen.

Do you think so, Barbara? I kind of think that Papa has his own ideas as to who will be the husband for his daughter. He is a manipulator and I see him making things happen because he has the wealth to do so.

Do you mean you think he won't mind bankrolling Felix's profligacy? That's what bothers me so much. Who would let that happen to their money?

All in all I can't find a really "positive" character in this book: there's no one I really like: Hetta is insipid; the same is Roger...
Probably the one I like best is Melmotet after all: he is what he looks like!!! And if he has his own ideas about who should be her daughter's husband, who didn't in those time?

I think one of the main doubts in the novel is that the Melmotte money WAS hard-earned (if that is waht you are referring to Barbara)! haha

And yes, I also, doubt everyone in the novel. Again, we are reading a novel where no hero has been set up for us(like some of our other group reads). In this respect, The Way We Live is very much like the other Trollope novels I have read. I think we are meant to really have to think and examine these people, and I may have to do so through much of the book.

I do agree SarahC: it is like a portrait of something more than a class of people: the old ones - not able anymore to live tha changing times, and the new ones, swindlers, not trustworthy and so on ... No hero here!

Barbara, I do think that Melmotte has someone higher in the social order in mind. He is a grand manipulator (a swindler too according to society), so I believe he is looking to elevate his position by marrying off his daughter to a person who brings a high social class with him. (He, to me is like the male version of Lady Carbury in this respect.)

I so agree about the absence of heros in what we have read so far in this book. They all have issues, yet, I find them all fascinating. Shows the wonderful writing of Trollope's at work, I believe.