Victorians! discussion

This thread is to discuss the section of the novel chapters titled “Ruby Ruggles Obeys Her Grandfather” through “Sir Felix Makes Himself Ready.” Please limit spoilers to this section of the reading only.

Do you think Ruby would have married John Crumb if Felix hadn't come into her life? There is a reference to her reading books, which likely filled her mind with things from the big city that John is not able to offer.

I don't see any chance of the elopement between Felix and Marie working. She is involving too many people, but I guess she is rather helpless without going through the servants.

I think that you needed people to help anyway: at that time think only how to move a trunk!
Books and Ruby ... who knows what she would have done without Felix intervention? One of our most important and famous poet, Dante Algihieri, in his masterpiece The Divine Comedy in the first "cantica" Inferno 5th canto - one of the most famous - describe two lovers in hell because of their sins. One of the responsible for the poet was ... literature!
"Galeotto fu il libro
e chi lo scrisse"
(guilty was the book and who wrote it)

I have not yet completed this section, (up to chapter 41) but have really come to dislike pretty much the whole crew. They all seem so duplicitous and the deal making and whatnot is amazing! Trollope certainly weaves a tale of the wrongs of a society in both personal matters and business dealings.

You can see the intricate weavings of what I believe to be a facade of a railroad company led by Melmotte. He is quite the father to Marie and reads Felix like a book. He has picked him out for the scoundrel he is and one has to think that one scoundrel has recognized another.

The possible runaway marriage, I feel will not happen, for the reason that Kyle mentioned, but also for the fact that I believe Felix will not follow through.

I find Mrs. Hurtle an interesting character. Paul Montague does have his hands full with her as she is quite the manipulative soul. I do consider Montaque a fairly upstanding young man and do feel sorrow for the box he seems to be forced into.

Trollope has portrayed a vivid and exquisite portrayal of people and their character faults to perfection.

I think you all are far enough into this now for me to say I think society has probably come full circle. This book is all about money: who has it, who wants it, who will do what to get it. In the US at least, it seems much the same. I know, I know, "oh not me", but I look around, and it's what kind of car(s) do people drive, what kind of cell phone, where do they take vacations, even whether they wear name brand shoes! And I don't see the attitude has changed much despite the recession.

I agree with you Elizabeth, especially in regards to credit. The concept of ready money (i.e., cash) is something that I found interesting. It is so easy for Americans today to buy things they cannot afford, and then dig themselves into a hole financially.

There were very few working men and women in the story (John Crumb, Mr. Broune, Mrs. Pipkin, etc.), and I kept wondering where all the rest were supposed to be getting their money? They had titles, and I guess some residual income from lands, and presumably crops/livestock, harvested?

I have just finished this section and I do so find Mrs Hurtle intriguing. I really do not know what to make of her. What does everyone think? Is she being truthful or are we only getting half the picture? Interesting too, that Trollope made her an American woman and not a British lady don't you think?

I was just thinking this morning that this story does have a statement about maybe the power and character of England/America/Europe. The changing financial power, the origin of the more deceptive characters, the calm landscape of upper class England being invaded by the unknown character.

The Mrs. Hurtle problem: Paul will be the first to admit becoming enthralled with her, but not really knowing enough about her to spend his future on her. A powerful woman with money to her name, but where and how. And the way she enters the story probably tell us something. Will she be Paul's greatest challenge?

I think we see so much in this section the intersecting affects of the characters among each other. You feel these things have the power to influence, control and destroy others.

One thing is changing among all these goings on -- Melmotte may seem to still be holding the reins, but look what is slowly happening. He buys Pickering from the Longestaffes, but no money even passes hands. The Longestaffes only sold due to their desperate need for cash. They won't let this go on for long. We find about Melmotte's huge mortgages, and little ready money.

We also see Matilda truly destroying her own life. Broune cannot marry into this family with Felix running wild and completely supported emotionally by Matilda.

And whatever struggles Paul maybe have in his personal life, he is the first to walk away from Melmotte. I am certainly beginning to give him more credit. Hetta has probably seen these better qualities in Paul. And we hear her tell her mother that she is not good enough to marry Roger. She respects him too much to marry him and not love him. So this still hangs in the balance.

I am finding Trollope has the ability to tell this story without the sensationalism sometimes found in stories like this. It sounds like it would be a real potboiler, but when reading, it really just has the smooth flow of a good piece of literature. He describes sensitively, not sensationally, the daily actions and troubled decline of these characters.

Great observation about Trollope's tone with his characters, Sarah. You are so right in your perceptions. He does make his characters so "ordinary" yet compelling in their faults. He is letting them all stumble on without that sensationalism one often sees in other books. I admire that easiness of his to make his personalities understandable and ever so human.

Kyle wrote: "Do you think Ruby would have married John Crumb if Felix hadn't come into her life? There is a reference to her reading books, which likely filled her mind with things from the big city that John ..."

It seems Ruby may marry John Crumb because Felix came into the picture, she became of aware of Felix's capabilities, which were then confirmed by Roger. Who knows, Felix may reappear in her life later in the novel though.

Ruby is one of the women on the book who is also dealing with "the way we live now." Remember how she wants her independence, certainly no long wants to live with a grandpa who is violent to her. She wants to have the freedom to see a little of London and have her own mind. And she wants to be dealt with honestly. I love the comments in chapters 42 and 43. From Paul, who first calls Felix her "wont-be husband." Then Ruby's own words in ch 43 pretty much telling it like it is when Felix tells her he is not interested in marriage.

I wonder what more lies ahead for her in the story.

Marialyce wrote: I have just finished this section and I do so find Mrs Hurtle intriguing
I also find Mrs Hurtle one of the best characters in the book; I don't really understand why men are running away from her - or suggesting other to di that! I find her son much better than hetta Cardbury: a woman who can think for herself and act consequently! Too advanced for her time? I'm at all certain that Trollope dislikes her so much...
For the other considerations abiut this part, I was thinking that I really can’t stand Paul Montague! He is always thinking of dropping Mrs Hurtle but always ends complaying with her requests! (end of chap. 43: Of course he took her in his arms, and kissed her lips as well as her cheeks.) But are they sleeping in the same room you think?
The rise of Melmotte is astonishing… in Italy we have a way of saying – I don’t know if you have something similar – “Chi troppo in altro sal cade sovente, precipitevolissimevolmente”(who rise too high often falls fast indeed). Even if you don’t know my language you can easily see the funny word in the end meaning very very very fast! I’m thinking about it while I’m reading these chapters. And to link it with our times and the problems in our own stock market, think how these words could go for us as well: (Chap. 45) It was a part of the charm of all dealings with this great man that no ready money seemed ever to be necessary for anything.

In America, Laura, there is a saying....Be careful how you treat people going up the ladder of success. They are the same people you will meet on the way down the ladder..."

You are right about Paul...he is so wishy washy, but she is an extremely "pushy" woman. I wonder if this is how Trollope felt about American women?

Marialyce wrote: "In America, Laura, there is a saying....Be careful how you treat people going up the ladder of success. They are the same people you will meet on the way down the ladder..."

You are right about Pa..."

I no, I hope not, Marialyce! haha That is a good question though. But Trollope is also showing the other characters greatly capable of scheming, so maybe he isn't pointing the finger at the American female too much. Maybe moreso that she is the type of woman Paul could have met on any long journey and been enticed by.

I am going against the wave -- I am still holding out for Paul's redemption one of these days! Maybe fruitlessly!

Paul seems too easily swayed by Roger, Mrs. Hurtle, and some mysterious guy in Liverpool, a Mr. Ramsbottom who appears to be giving financial/career advice.

I think Paul is one of the few characters searching for a conscious though. He at least does not seem to be blindly diving into his choices, although some of them are poor. He seems a bit of a contrast character to Felix Carbury. I do think for now, he is depending on Roger for to help him with decisions (but then several are depending on Roger). And the ultimate conflict is that he and his best friend Roger want the same girl. Classic story.

I like reading of these struggling young men in classic literature. I do tend to read a lot of stories which tell of women's struggles before they reached much legal or political power, however, I sympathize with the young men too. Wealthy or not, due to shorter life spans, fairly young men had a lot of responsibility thrust upon them. I even think of that in Pride & Prejudice. People are tough on Darcy, but he was a very young man for all the responsibility -- and a young sister on his hands. Rich or poor, how would a young man deal with that today? We don't have to so much, because our parents live so much longer.

Marialyce, Paul Montague might be compared to Trollope's character Felix (another Felix) in Orley Farm. A young man just starting out in life, without the title or family to help him. Remember, he also had a conflict in his choice of women?

I have rather mixed feelings about Marie on the one hand she is rather misguided in her love for Felix and so I do not think she ought to run off and elope with him because such a course I can only see leading to misery.

But on the other side, I find it difficult not to admire her in her standing up for herself and rebelling against her father and refusing to accept a match she does not want for herself out of obedience to her father.

It seems to me that Ruby had prior to meeting Felix agreed that she would marry John Crumb so I do not think she would have backed down from that even if perhaps she never truly cared for John that much, if she had not met Felix. But after being dazzled by a figure like Felix she cannot now picture herself settling for the likes of John who though may be more honest seems to be a great deal less interesting. In addition to the appeal of Felix having the title of a Baronet.

It seems to me that misadventures in love is a reoccurring themes within this book and something that nearly all of the characters within the book are afflicting by in one way or another, and either directly or indirectly plays some role in their own lives.

I think the problem with Mrs. Hurtle is just that: she was an American. She was unrefined, her accent hard on the ears, somewhat aggressive - probably a "hick". She was older than Paul, experienced. While that might have looked like a good thing on the train in the US, getting back to London among his own kind made him see the error of his ways.

I have to say I cannot help but to feel sorry for Ruby as she is stranded in a rather unfortunate position. It will go badly with her if she continues her involvement with Felix since he is not going to comment to her and could be the cause of her ruin as Roger says if she carries on as she does in a way that may only stand to damage her reputation while in the end giving her nothing.

Yet I can sympathize with her not wishing to marry John while he may be honest and genuinely care for Ruby and could take care of her, I do not know if Ruby could truly be happy in a life in which she would be to trapped into the domestic sphere of a wife of a farmer.

But living in the time in which she does she does not have many options open to her. There are not a lot of job opportunities available to women and so she really does not have the chance or ability to gain that independence she wants for herself.

She is put in a position where she faces falling to a rather tragic fate or having to simply settle for a life as John Crumb's wife. Being with a man whom however good he may be she feels no love for, and being denied the liberties and freedoms she has enjoyed during her stay with her aunt.

Back to Mrs. Hurtle. Rather than comparing her to the other women in the book, let's ask ourselves how she stacks up against the men in the book. Nothwithstanding a woman's inherent powerlessness in those days, she has managed to decide what she wants in life and has determined to get it. Remember, somebody tried to cheat her of her "estate" but she persevered until she got it back, without stealing it, I might add. Which of the men in this book so far might have achieved as much, even without the "hurdle" of being a woman. She's becoming my hero.

Kyle wrote: "Do you think Ruby would have married John Crumb if Felix hadn't come into her life? There is a reference to her reading books, which likely filled her mind with things from the big city that John ..."

Kyle, your comment about Ruby reading books reminds me of Madame Bovary.  Here is a quote from Madame Bovary which could also apply to Ruby Ruggles: Before marriage she thought herself in love; but the happiness that should have followed this love not having come, she must, she thought, have been mistaken. And Emma tried to find out what one meant exactly in life by the words felicity, passion, rapture, that had seemed to her so beautiful in books. However I think Ruby is more realistic than Emma Bovary. I am not sure if Trollope is trying to tell us that reading books is bad for women. More than likely he might be trying to point out that Ruby is literate whereas John Crumb is not.

Barbara wrote: "Back to Mrs. Hurtle. Rather than comparing her to the other women in the book, let's ask ourselves how she stacks up against the men in the book. Nothwithstanding a woman's inherent powerlessness..."

Barbara, I like your comments about Mrs. Hurtle. She does seem to be a rather strong character and knows her mind.

I cannot help but to see certain parallels, comparisons, and similarities between Mrs. Hurtle, and Lady Carbury, in a way it seems as if this is a way to juxtapose the American with the English.

Both women come from a similar background having both had experiences with abusive husbands, and both used the means available to them to escape those circumstances.

And while it could be said that in some ways Lady Carbury is "weaker" than Mrs. Hurtle, particularly in regards to how allows herself to be taken advantage of by her unworthy son, but they still are both independent in their own way.

In addition they both seem to use their charm, and cleverness to be manipulative of men. Mrs. Hurtle does her best to hold on to Paul and try and prevent him or deter him from putting off the marriage. And while Lady Carbury does not wish now to lose her independence by once more putting herself in the charge and at the mercy of another man, she does use her flirtations upon Mr. Bourne to help her in the publications.

Mrs. Hurtle might be more "loudly" outrageous in the rumors surrounding her, but when we are first introduced to Lady Carbury we are told that her own reputation is somewhat scandalous and after having been married once before she has made the choice now to attempt to earn her own living and no longer be dependent upon a man.

I find her - mrs Hurtle I mean - one of the best character of the whole novel, even if I have to admit that I don't think that was Trollope's intention. I admire her autonomy a lot, her looking at the world from her own specific point of view ...

I do see what Silver is saying about the two woman. They each do know what they want and while Lady Carbury uses guile and feminine persuasion to get what she needs, Mrs. Hurtle uses her strength of character to move forward. With the one, you see the undercurrents, with the others it is more of a "What you see is what you get" type attitude.

I am sorry, but I just don't see it with Mrs. Hurtle. She is purposefully trying to manipulate a man into marrying her who does not want to marry her. I can't agree that speaks very well for women of any time period. It looks like mine is not the popular opinion, and I don't mind, as long as I don't offend anybody else by making this comment. Trollope even describes her using the word "scheming."

I have not reached the end of the novel, and this character may make a turn-about, but at this point, these are my views.

SarahC wrote: "I am sorry, but I just don't see it with Mrs. Hurtle. She is purposefully trying to manipulate a man into marrying her who does not want to marry her. I can't agree that speaks very well for women ..."

In a way it can be argued that Paul is equally misleading her. While he does initially try and express that he does not wish to marry her, the way he conducts himself towards her after, is as if nothing between them has changed.

He allows his guilt and weakness to lead him, and instead of just putting his foot down and refusing to marry her, he backs off and promises to see her again, still comes at her beck and call, takes her out to dinner, takes her to the sea side.

After he had first told her he was not going to marry her, he should have broken all ties with her than and there and not continued to respond to her messages.

Paul does ultimately become a willing victim in the manipulation because he simpers and allows her to manipulate him because it is easier than standing up for himself finally and truly.

I think Sarah, that is why I asked that question about how she was being presented. Was it because of Trollope's liking/disliking Americans?

Please don't think that you of all people would offend anyone. She was a manipulator though and worked hard like Lady C to get what she wanted. Whether this is an admirable trait is certainly debatable.

Good point, whether the character Hurtle is made to be representative of Americans. I just don't see that it is, right now, because certainly so much is going on similar with several of the other characters. Thanks, Marialyce, I am seeing many different viewpoints in the discussion, and there are always just a few spots where I bring out my differences in interpretation or views more openly.

Responding to Silver's comment, it just seems in your message 27, your discussion of Hurtle becomes a discussion of Paul, and that is not really what I was driving at. But my response to that is that a weak victim does not make manipulation less of a damaging trait. And Paul may have been "willing" in certain definitions of the term, but not in others.

SarahC wrote: Responding to Silver's comment, it just seems in your message 27, your discussion of Hurtle becomes a discussion of Paul, and that is not really what I was driving at. .."

I just wanted to point out that I think Paul is equally culpable in the manipulation for allowing it to happen and that Mrs. Hurtle I do not see as being completely to blame because Paul does have to take responsibility for himself and his own actions towards her.

Perhaps Mrs. Hurtle should not be trying to manipulate him into a marriage he does not want, but than he does not very strongly expressed his feelings, at least not at first, and he does seem wishy washy. For perhaps she is not completely to blame for thinking the marriage might still go through. Nor can I blame her for not being so willing to just accept that Paul has suddenly broken a promise he made to her.

Granted people are entitled to change their minds, and his situation and circumstances has changed, but I think Mrs. Hurtle is entitled to be angry and not altogether accepting of his wanting to break his word with her.

Seeuuder wrote: "Kyle wrote: "Do you think Ruby would have married John Crumb if Felix hadn't come into her life? There is a reference to her reading books, which likely filled her mind with things from the big ci..."

Kyle, I was way off base when I made the comment about Ruby in reference to book reading. In the next section ***No Spoilers here*** a comment is once again made about women reading novels. I will post my thoughts about this in the next section.

I'm sorry I am so far behind everyone else. I finally read closely somewhere into this section (my book is upstairs and I can't grab it to check exactly where), then basically skimmed the remainder of the book for the "story." Now I shall have the challenge of keeping my comments restricted to the appropriate section! :(

One of the things that struck me today was the fun Trollope must have had in writing these chapters. I found myself wondering at his writing process and in what units did he write -- in these chapters, they seemed almost like entities that could have been developed in and of themselves, with the next chapters depending on how these turned out -- rather like our lives, one week or month at a time. But I have no idea of his writing habits.

I much enjoyed the courtship of Lady Matilda Carbury by Nicholas Bourne, Esq.

What a delight it must have been to Trollope to have written passages such as these:

"The word 'wife' came upon her like a thunder-clap. It at once changed all her feelings towards him. She did not dream of loving him. She felt sure that she never could love him. Had it been on the cards with her to love any man as a lover, it would have been some handsome spendthrift who would have hung from her neck like a nether millstone. This man was a friend to be used,--to be used because he knew the world. And now he gave her this clear testimony that he knew as little of the world as any other man. Mr Broune of the 'Daily Breakfast Table' asking her to be his wife! But mixed with her other feelings there was a tenderness which brought back some memory of her distant youth, and almost made her weep. That a man,--such a man,--should offer to take half her burdens, and to confer upon her half his blessings! What an idiot! But what a god! She had looked upon the man as all intellect, alloyed perhaps by some passionless remnants of the vices of his youth; and now she found that he not only had a human heart in his bosom, but a heart that she could touch. How wonderfully sweet! How infinitely small!" Chapter 31.


"...Poor woman! This at any rate may be said for her,--that had she accepted the man her regrets would have been as deep.

"Mr. Broune's feelings were more decided in their tone than those of the lady. He had not made his offer without consideration, and yet from the very moment in which it had been made he repented it. That gently sarcastic appellation by which Lady Carbury had described him to herself when he had kissed her best explained that side of Mr Broune's character which showed itself in this matter. He was a susceptible old goose. Had she allowed him to kiss her without objection, the kissing might probably have gone on; and, whatever might have come of it, there would have been no offer of marriage. He had believed that her little manoeuvres had indicated love on her part, and he had felt himself constrained to reciprocate the passion. She was beautiful in his eyes. She was bright. She wore her clothes like a lady; and,--if it was written in the Book of the Fates that some lady was to sit at the top of his table,--Lady Carbury would look as well there as any other. She had repudiated the kiss, and therefore he had felt himself bound to obtain for himself the right to kiss her."

"...Gradually, through the night, he realized the conviction that he had escaped..."

"...Mr. Broune thought that he was very well out of the danger, and resolved that Lady Carbury should never want anything that his friendship could do for her." Chapter 36

(view spoiler)[Ah, huh? (hide spoiler)]

You know, Lily, I did not think of the "fun" Trollope must have had writing this, but you are so right. He was able to throw so many jabs and punches at society and I do believe he throughly enjoyed the times he was more or less hanging convention out to dry in the open. Good thoughts there....