Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion

Discuss A Game of Thrones here! :)

I never been part of a group discusion like this before so i'm not sure what to say. (and how do you guys make it so you have to click on the link to see whats written?)

SPOILER:

I saw the show and i liked it so I kind of know what is going to happen but the book has a lot more detial and there is a lot different from the show. I wonder why they do that.

Tyrion is my favrite character in the book so far and in the show but i hate his brother and sister. I don't like King Robert either. I think he is mean to ask Ned to be his Hand because Ned doesn't want to do it and ned is too honorable. Robert is real selfish I think. Cersei is just evil I think.

Do this, but with no spaces:
< spoiler > spoiler > and write your spoiler in between.

I felt much the same about characters during AGOT. I loved Jon Snow, Tyrion, Dany, Ned, Bran and Arya the most. Hated Cersei and Sansa with a passion, Jaime too but not as much as the bitch queen. Robert just disgusted me, he is selfish and a lazy old pig. But I did like how him and Ned were when they were together, true and loyal friends, and easy comraderie.

How far are you into the book, P3? I'll love discussing this with you but I won't want to reveal spoilers. The book is so good you'll want to discover everything all for yourself.

Thank you Jackie. I am about 30% into the book - i don't know the exact page number b/c i'm reading the ebook version. (view spoiler)[Tyrion just gave Bran plans for a saddle after he came back from the wall. I like Tyrion a lot. (hide spoiler)]

cool that worked!

I listened to the audio of this one in April 2010. Holy crap I didn't realize it had been that long. Guess a re-read is in order. My favorites are pretty much the same as Jackie. Especially Tyrion, Jon and Arya.

Hated Sansa the most. And of course Cersei and Jeoffrey (forgive my spelling as I audioed this one). But I've heard from Chris, Dawn and Becky that apparently (view spoiler)[Sansa redeems herself (hide spoiler)]though I can't even imagine how. Its a good thing GRRM did it for me. Eh?

HMPH... You didn't hear that from me!

PenelopeThree, Thanks for the info, percentage works just as well as page number for me. I envy you the beginning of the journey, you are in for one hell of a ride. If I have spoilers, I'll mark them with an approximate percent.

Felina, (view spoiler)[ I'm on ADWD and I've seen no redemption of Sansa so far, she can never make up for what she did and she knows it. Crappy things happen to her but that's not the same as redeeming oneself. I will admit that I'm really hard on Sansa but I feel she deserves every ounce of my contempt. (hide spoiler)]

Ouch. Please be careful with ADWD comments in the AGOT thread.

That said, I never claimed that Sansa (view spoiler)[redeemed herself. I've been hoping she would. I think there is character development. I happen to like her character. But redemption? (view spoiler)[Not yet. Maybe before it's all over. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Sorry Chris, I didn't think it was a spoiler but I'll tag it just the same.

Thanks Jackie... it's funny how the little things can change the whole experience of reading the series. Penelope's got a whole lot of experiencing to do...

Lucky girl! *jealous*

It's not 2012 yet... When I finish Dance, I can just start again with AGoT right? O_O LOL

And on that note... I should go to bed. It's already past my bedtime. *sigh*

Becky wrote: When I finish Dance, I can just start again with AGoT right?
We'll probably have to, if Martin takes another million years to get us the next book.

I'm going to read some ADWD before I go to bed, it's late and I'm tired so I don't know how far I'll get.

Jackie and becky your gonna start the whole series again when you finish? wow!

Not right away, but when I need my Westeros fix, I'll have to. Who knows how long the next installment will take to get to our hands?
I like to re-read my favorite series, I always get more out of it with each reading.

Jackie, you should try the Hedge Knight stories. They're novellas and won't take much time, but are good insight into Westeros.

Chris, Thanks, I'll see if I can get a copy from my library.

Hmmm Sansa (view spoiler)[ maybe you all never said she got better but that you liked her character. I just assumed that she had some kind of redemption because I couldn't figure out how anybody could like that *spits out every horrible name imaginable*. I wanted to slap her so many times. Ooo its been a year and a half since I read this and I'm still getting upset. Okay. I'm going to bed. (hide spoiler)]

Felina, about Sansa (view spoiler)[ She incites a similar response in me also. She's just so self absorbed in her delusional fantasies that I want to slap her silly. A silly little crush I can overlook but when she told Cersei about Ned's plans because it's-all-about-what-Selfish-Sansa-wants, that's it, I'm done with that little twit forever. I can't get over it. I may feel a little bad for her every once in a while but I can't forgive her. But then she always does something stupid again and I'm right back where I started with her, the stupid bitch never learns. (hide spoiler)]
And it's not that I hold grudges, now Jaime, on the other hand, (view spoiler)[ had changed and become a better man than he was when he pushed my beloved Bran out the window. I never thought I could get over that, but he's come a long way and I can care about him and I don't feel as if I'm betraying Bran because this is not the same Jaime, he's a better version of himself. He's a fantastic character because he's constantly evolving throughout the series. (hide spoiler)]

Felina,

(view spoiler)[It's not that we (I'll speak for Chris here too, because I'm pretty sure he feels the same way) like Sansa as a person. I don't want to kick it with her, have a glass of wine and chat. But I don't have to like her as a person, to enjoy reading her POV. Her POV is one of my favorites, but that doesn't mean I like her or think she's a good person. (hide spoiler)]

What Dawn said. I like lots of characters in books that I would not like if I met them face to face.

Sansa:(view spoiler)[ There is one other angle to look at with me. I'm a daddy of two recently grown daughters. I know how I feel about them, no matter what they do or how they might frustrate me. Now, they're not dumb like Sansa was being, but if they were that feeling wouldn't change. It's unconditional, and not only does love for a child do that, but I think there's something extra special about daughters to daddies. There is to me, anyway. When I see Sansa, I find myself looking at her as Ned would. Therefore I hope she'll learn and do better and become the true Stark that is in her blood. She might disappoint, but the hope is still there. Well, we know where that got Ned. So it's not a rational "love" perhaps, but what can one do? (hide spoiler)]

Chris, I share your hope, even though it may not seem like it. It's what keeps me interested in Sansa, to see if she evolves. (view spoiler)[ I have to accept that she's a slow learner yet I'm relieved, for her sake, when she takes her baby steps in the right direction. I think Sansa will surprise us all in the end. (hide spoiler)]

I hated Sansa for how she behaved in the beginning but I do think she has grown as a character though. (view spoiler)[From the moment Sansa realized what a monster Joffrey was, I think she went into survival mode and it brought out the Stark in her. She started to learn how to outsmart Joff and use his vanity against him. When she saves the drunken Ser Dontos from Joffrey's wrath for instance. I think that's when we see her learning to play the game, which of course she must do in order for her to survive all the craziness in the Vale--from her delusional and dangerously unstable aunt, to her spoiled and way too powerful sickly cousin, to the always dangerous and plotting Littlefinger. (hide spoiler)] I don't think I will ever feel for her what I feel for Arya and Jon, but I do see Catelyn's strength in her emerging and she's not the naive/head in the fairy tales girl we met in GoT.

Dany is the best!

Becca, can you please mark that spoiler as a Storm of Swords spoiler? Someone who is done with A Game of Thrones might click it and still be spoiled if it isn't properly marked.

Thanks!!

When I read the spoiler, I gasped! I'd have had a fit if I wasn't past it. The heading is titled 'Marked Spoilers'. Maybe you'll have to clarify what the means in all the threads of the series, Becky.

Good idea. =\

I thought the title was clear as it was. All spoilers need to be marked, and preferably there should only be spoilers for book one. However... If the discussion takes us in the direction of later books, spoilers should be very carefully marked to indicate exactly what book they are from. I don't want to limit the discussion, and if it gets too far from book one we can always move to another thread... But regardless. ALL spoilers must be marked.

I agree... I don't want to limit the discussion either, but that's a big spoiler for someone to see if they haven't gotten there yet but have finished the first book.

Becca - Hey. I'm sorry but I had to delete your post. Becky and Dawn explain why. In a Book 1 thread, please be extra careful to mark spoilers for future books. I'll repost your message here with the proper markage:

------------------------------------------------------

Becca: "My thoughts too! Even though I do enjoy reading about Tyrion. (view spoiler)[Even though he is a filthy lion I do feel sorry for him. To me he isn't selfish or hungry for power and control like his evil sister! (hide spoiler)]

And I've always had a nagging feeling that he'd turn out good in the end (*End of Book 3 Spoiler**) (view spoiler)[ and I think by murdering his own father he is slowly showing his true colours. (hide spoiler)] "

Wouldn't it just be easier to state which book before the spoiler thingy? It just looks weird to me, it took me a while to realize there were 2 spoiler tags.

Does that look better? The first part of what she said fit this book. I just separated the sentences...

Yes! I know I'm anal at times. You rock.

Now back to Tyrion. Filthy lion? That freaked me out, lol. I know he's a filthy lion, but I never think of him as one because I like him so much.

I like that he's so smart; he's so much better than everyone around him yet they all judge him on his looks. How friggin idiotic.

I have hopes that Tyrion will be a hero and on the side of right and good by the end too.

I love Tyrion. Not all Lannisters attributes are bad and he has some of the good ones. He always pays his debts, he understands that there IS a game of thrones and knows how to play the game. He also is able to see the big picture and knows there is more to winning a war than winning battles. As much as I disliked Tywin and thought he was a horrible father and person, he also had these attributes.

oopsie sorry Chris! If I do anything similar next time I'll be sure to seperate the spoilers and note which books the spoilers are from so people know what to click and what not to click!
Jackie, I think my remark "filthy lions" just stems from my hatred of Cersei! And Jamie, after what he did to Bran! She is just ruthless, I think I hate her more when she is being friendly (acting obviously!) than when she is being evil!
And I agree that one of the big mistakes others around him makes is judging him on his height and looks only. His friendly side is evident in his friendship with Jon and how he helps Bran and obviously this stems from his experiences as a dwarf. I do hope he turns out on the good side at the end but anything could happen!

Becca, Cersei and Tywin can easily make a person hate lions forever.
I despised Jaime in AGOT for what he did to Bran but ASOS spoiler: (view spoiler)[ he changes into a better person after the hand thing. I found myself caring about him, then I'd have to remind myself that I hate him. It's not working. I have to acknowlegde that he's changed and even though I haven't forgiven him for Bran, I have gotten to a place where both feelings can live side by side. I place the blame mostly on Cersei for twisting Jaime's head in the first place. She's the evil bitch and she remains the evil bitch. (hide spoiler)]

Nicely marked spoiler, Jackie!

*swoons*

lol :)

I didn't want anyone to miss the tag, now it's glaring at us, lol

Haha how do you make it bold so next time I write something spoiler-ish it can be clear?

Same as the spoiler thing except substitute 'b' instead of 'spoiler' in both areas.

Also, if you click that 'some html is ok' thing right above your reply box, it gives a list of other similar things you can do.

[b] & [/b] , just replace [ ] with < >

I'm so glad that you guys like Tyrion too!! He's my absolute favorite!! And personally I think he's kind of a hunk in the series. BTW are people still commenting in this thread or did you stop because you finished the book?

All threads are ongoing, Nicola...feel free to post wherever.

I follow them too. You post it, I'll read it and sometimes I'll comment.

Tyrion's awesome.

the best character of all!

At first I thought we were supposed to hate Tyrion because he was Lannister, but there's no way George would write him so likable if he wanted us to hate him. Sansa on the other hand... *refrains from strangling the air*

Nicola wrote: "At first I thought we were supposed to hate Tyrion because he was Lannister, but there's no way George would write him so likable if he wanted us to hate him. Sansa on the other hand... *refrains..."

Sansa definitely frustrated me, too!

From the moment she decided she loved Joffrey, I was like "You moron!" And I know people are mad at her for (view spoiler)[acting the way she did before her father was killed (hide spoiler)], but I couldn't forgive her for (view spoiler)[lying when Nymeria bit Joffrey. She saw the whole thing, and instead of telling the truth and saving the direwolves' and butcher's son's lives, she protects her precious Joffrey!!!! (hide spoiler)] The selfish idiot! *takes deep breath* I finished reading it last summer and it still upsets me. :)

Hey Nicola - just in case you didn't notice.. This thread is for marked spoilers for book one only, as in you need to use spoiler tags on anything that might be considered a book one spoiler. There are a couple things in message 48 that probably should be marked, if you could edit your comment it would be greatly appreciated :)

If you don't know how to do spoiler tags, there's a little link about the comment box that says "some html is ok", it should help.

I couldn't stand Sansa from the second she was introduced,(view spoiler)[ right away she was a vapid idiot and she stayed true to character through most of the book. And she's stupid too, the biggest offense of all because she's capable. Other readers explained her as being a product of her era, which is true, but I still can't stand such a weak character. (hide spoiler)]