Terminalcoffee discussion

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/natio...

Tonight begins the test of the Philadelphia curfew implemented by Mayor Michael Nutter. The rules are simple: If you're under the age of 18, you need to be off the streets by 9 p.m. on Friday and Saturday nights in troubled areas of the city.

The penalty for getting caught lingering out of doors is a cool $300 for teens, and parents can be fined up to $500 if their child gets caught twice.

The Friday and Saturday curfews were instituted to crack down on violent mobs of teenagers that have been plaguing the city over the past year -– a goal made more relevant to everyone by the recent unrest in England. Just like in England, the flash mobs in Philadelphia have been facilitated by social media services such as Twitter and Facebook.

What do you think?

sees kind of early. i would say 11 would make more sense

9 p.m. is when these kids usually wake up to go out on the town.

These large mobs have been brutally attacking people at random. Something needs to be done to get parents involved in stopping it.

I don't really have a problem with it. I mean, really, it's the responsibility of the police to keep residents safe. If rampaging mobs are harming people and property, it would be nice if the police could figure out a way to control it short of a curfew. But I'm guessing budgets are tight, the way they are in Chicago too, where we need more police on the streets, and if a curfew keeps malfeasors from committing crimes and makes people feel safe enough to go about their business, it's better than no solution at all. It's infringing the liberties of people under the age of 18 who aren't committing crimes, but eventually they will turn 18 and gain their freedom.

We had a curfew in the town where I grew up. I don't remember what time it was, but I remember hearing the town siren go off every night.

I think Philadelphia is going to have trouble policing a curfew.

how do you differentiate from a punk kid out looking for trouble and a good kid getting off work at the pizza place and heading home? curfews are tough. i'm with janice. i heard about curfews when i was growing up but never actually heard it enforced. about the same as the truant officer.

I get the idea of a short-term curfew in areas where kids are causing significant mob problems. But I'm not comfortable with the fact that these are mostly in poor minority areas. So...you poor kids, over there, you have to be in by 9PM or we're going to fine your parents hundreds of dollars. You white, more affluent kids...have a great night! Stay out as late as you want! So short term solution...ok. Long term solution...no.

We've had an 11pm curfew in my town at least since I was a teen and it doesn't work any better now than it did then. A kid will only be pulled over or spoken to after curfew if they have done something wrong. Then, no matter how many times they've been caught out, unless they are doing something illegal, they are simply told to go home. My daughters' curfew has always been 10pm during the week and 11pm Fri and Sat. and I enforce it myself. I certainly can't depend on the police. I also take it upon myself to know where the 'bad' parts of town are and try to make sure my kids stay away. Doesn't always work, but most of the time they stick to places they're less likely to get hurt or arrested.

It is a great idea. These kids are pulling people out of their cars and beating them. So something has to be done and a curfew may be the most reasonable thing to do. Mayor Nutter's most important job is to make his city safe.

RandomAnthony wrote: "I get the idea of a short-term curfew in areas where kids are causing significant mob problems. But I'm not comfortable with the fact that these are mostly in poor minority areas. So...you poor k..."

Does it not make sense to more strictly enforce the curfew in the areas where the violence is actually taking place? It has nothing to do with ethnicity or income and everything to do with the reality of what's happening on the street.

I agree Phil, although I think that 9:00 is too early. For those working, they may not be able to get home from their jobs without breaking curfew.

Maybe it's for their safety as well, though? So they're not out when the mobs forms?

I read a harrowing first person account by an AVClub writer whose leg was broken in one of these attacks.

Does it not make sense to more strictly enforce the curfew in the areas where the violence is actually taking place? It has nothing to do with ethnicity or income and everything to do with the reality of what's happening on the street.

You really don't think it has anything to do with race/income, Phil? That's a curious statement, in my eyes, anyway. If I'm not mistaken, using the Philadelphia and Milwaukee incidents as examples (I'll leave the London riots alone since we have another thread), most of the kids involved in these incidents were black kids from bad neighborhoods. Do you think that's a coincidence? Just pure bad luck? Are there groups of affluent white kids cruising the suburbs beating the shit out of people on the scale that curfews are necessary? No potential connection to high unemployment rates and subpar schools and the sense that the kids are getting a raw deal compared to the kids in the safe, affluent neighborhoods?

Listen. I'm for the curfews as short term solutions. And I understand the call for parents of any background to make sure their kids aren't involved in this type of activity. But there are questions here that deserve further exploration, although I'm not comfortable establishing pure causality in a scenario with so many emotional and difficult to measure variables. A curfew potentially treats the symptoms, but if you don't ask the question "why are these kids (and remember, they're a small percentage of urban kids) engaging in this behavior, why aren't their parents stopping it, and what other resources do these kids have to keep them out of trouble?" you're missing a big part of the picture. Phil, drive through a dangerous urban neighborhood at night. Look around. There can be a feeling of utter hopelessness and still the great majority of people are trying to do the right thing. But questions such as "how can we create safe spaces for these kids so they don't get involved in this type of violence?" and "What's going on that might cause the anger and frustration that's present in some teenagers here to flare up into mob attacks?" are necessary; failing to ask them, in my eyes, is irresponsible. I also think allowing the community to step up and take responsibility (e.g. like you're seeing many churches and community organizations do already) is important as well. In Milwaukee kids marched the next day with a "look, most of us are doing the right thing" message. That was awesome. Eugene Kane, a prominent black journalist, had a great article about the Wisconsin issue that analyzes well, I think, the fact that black kids were involved in the attacks but that fact can't be called an indictment of black culture (as two Milwaukee aldermen did):

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwauke...

Joel McNally from the Shepherd Express had a good article as well:

http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/artic...

I agree with this paragraph:

People shouldn't make sweeping assumptions about parents they've never met, but it's possible some young people aren't fortunate enough to have anyone in their lives who cares about them. If that's true, it's in the interest of white society to create positive support structures to improve the lives of young blacks. At a minimum, we should provide a first-class educational system and equal employment opportunities.

As someone who has worked in the worst neighborhoods of Chicago and Milwaukee, I have met some amazing kids who walk past things I can't imagine on the way to school and still turn out wonderful and responsible. Those kids deserve a ton of credit. I admire them. And don't say "Oh, they must have great parents" because I've seen some kids with extremely fucked up parents turn out well. I don't know how these kids turn out well, honestly. If we want more kids to turn out like them, and, I hope, to not get involved in the isolated and negative behavior that's scared the shit out of people to the point of curfews, then the communities and neighborhoods need the resources to support them. We can't just set curfews and hope the kids stay inside.

Wow, you wrote a lot based on a misinterpretation of what I was trying to say.

I meant that the imposed curfew (the city's response) was not racial.

I did not mean that the riots/attacks were not racially based. My comment was not meant to address this side of the equation at all.

The only long-term solution is one of getting to kids when they are younger. Vancouver, BC has achieved some good results with community programs that try to change the way kids see police and the law in general:

http://vancouver.ca/police/community-...

Lots of positive reinforcement for being a better citizen and contributing to the community. It takes years to turn that stuff around.

I didn't misrepresent anything you said, Phil. I may have misunderstood your intent, but if you go back and read your post, i'm sure you can see how such a misunderstanding could take place. These confusions happen. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't really know what to think about this. My town has an 11 pm curfew, but it was rarely enforced. Albeit, we are a small town. I just think that perhaps Philly is getting a little overzealous with its laws recently. No texting and walking? Really?

I think that a curfew might work, but like others have said, 9 pm is much too early.

maybe we could enlist MTV for help. if they move jersey shore to a 10pm time slot on fri and sat night maybe a lot of these kids would stay home organically

Why don't the police catch people committing violent acts instead of hunting down a few teenagers at 9:30?
-shrug- That's just my thought.

Having said that, my college is outside of Philly and I like to go there with friends on weekends. I'm old enough to not actually be affected by the curfew, but I look maybe 14 or 15 and so I hope that I don't get asked to prove my age all the time...

Annie they are committing violent acts.

We've had a curfew in Greenville for a while. It's a much smaller city, of course. Haven't really noticed any detrimental effects yet. I think it's mostly in effect to empower the police to do something if they see "suspicious behavior" without having official probable cause, if that makes any sense. The curfews are imposed downtown and doesn't apply if the kids are with a legal guardian. I think it was less about violence than vandalism (out outdoor stage for the Shakespeare Festival, before the summers of the curfew, would get vandalized at least once a production).

Now, here in Columbia (my new town), there is a curfew imposed that was brought about due to violent teenagers. SInce I'm still fairly new here, I'm not sure what effect it's had yet.

Hey, Catalina, my dearest friend in the world is married to a Clemson teacher and lives in Greenville--small world. :)

Oh, cool! I wonder if I know them.