Reading with Style discussion

20.3 - S/he reads
A) Read a book written in third-person objective, a narrative mode in which the story is told without interpreting the actions or relaying the thoughts are going through the minds of the characters. This point of view can be described as a "fly on the wall" or "camera lens" approach and can only record the observable actions. Notable examples include the well-known hard-boiled dective novel The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett, The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, or the nouveau roman novel Jealousy by Alain Robbe-Grillet. OR
B) Read a book written in third-person limited narration, so that the story is limited to the telling by just one person, and the narrator cannot tell the reader things that the focal character does not know. For example, The Old Man and the Sea.

A couple of others I've seen indicated as third-person objective are Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter and Orwell's Animal Farm. Another possiblity is Steinbeck's The Pearl

What is the difference between 20.5 they read and 20.3 s/he read?

20.3 S/he read is told very matter-of-factly, more like a newspaper story. The narration does not include any of the thoughts and feelings of the characters. You must discern those from either the actions of the characters or from any dialogue.

Deedee wrote: "What is the difference between 20.5 they read and 20.3 s/he read?"

Third-person objective does not portray a character's thoughts or feelings. It does not interpret actions or relay what thoughts are going through the minds of the characters, it can only report on what is observed. We are not seeing the scene through the perspective of any specific character; it almost doesn't have a narrator (any more than a newspaper article has a narrator):

"As he entered the aisle between the rigid lines of soldiers he seemed slightly embarrassed, and grinned and nodded to a compadre here and there in the ranks."

Multiple narrators is the opposite, we see the story through the eyes of several characters, including their thoughts and feelings. This can be multiple first-person narrators or multiple third-person limited narrators:

"Miss Brill put up her hand and touched her fur. Dear little thing! It was nice to feel it again. She had taken it out of its box that afternoon, shaken out the moth powder, given it a good brush, and rubbed the life back into the dim little eyes."

I'm reading War and Peace and on p. 166 was a typical paragraph: "Their sabres catching in the bridles and their spurs jingling, the hussars hastily dismounted, not knowing what they were to do. The soldiers crossed themselves. Rostov no longer looked at the colonel; he had no time for that. He was afraid of falling behind the hussars, so much afraid that his heart stood still. His hand trembled as he turned his horse over to an orderly, and he felt the blood rushing back to his heart with a thud."

I'm thinking this is third-person objective, even though it is objectively describing a character being "so much afraid". Or is it? I'm confused again :0)

Deedee wrote: "I'm reading War and Peace and on p. 166 was a typical paragraph: "Their sabres catching in the bridles and their spurs jingling, the hussars hastily dismounted, not knowing what they ..."

I looked it up in Sparknotes, and War and Peace is third person omniscient. So is The Scarlet Letter, and Animal Farm is a mix.

I'm not finding very many options for this task either. For Whom the Bell Tolls looks good though.

Deedee wrote: "I'm reading War and Peace and on p. 166 was a typical paragraph: "He was afraid of falling behind the hussars, so much afraid that his heart stood still. His hand trembled as he turned his horse over to an orderly, and he felt the blood rushing back to his heart with a thud...."

This is not objective -- it is telling you his thoughts and feelings. If it was third-person objective, it would have described the physical manifestation of fear (hands shaking, a worried brow) and led the reader to infer that he was afraid.

And I agree, this is the hardest task for me to fulfill, as I have read the easiest to find examples:
Jealousy
The Maltese Falcon
For Whom the Bell Tolls

Deedee wrote: "I'm reading War and Peace and on p. 166 was a typical paragraph:
"He was afraid of falling behind the hussars, so much afraid that his heart stood still. His hand trembled as he turned his horse over to an orderly, and he felt the blood rushing back to his heart with a thud."

This is not third person objective -- it tells you Rostovs thoughts and feelings. Third-person objective would describe the physical manifestations of fear (the trembling hands, the worried brow) and led the reader to infer he was afraid.

And I agree, this task is the hardest for me to fulfill, as I have already read the easiest-to-find, most obvious examples:
The Maltese Falcon
Jealousy
For Whom the Bell Tolls
Animal Farm
The Lottery

I must do some research at the library soonish.

I have downloaded The Lottery and Other Stories. I don't know what "other stories" means, but I guess I'll find out.

It's been many years since I read For Whom the Bell Tolls. And Hammett is on my list, but not this time.

Thanks all -- For Whom the Bell Tolls has been on my list forever, so I'll use it for this task ... and, IF I find another one I'll vet it here first ... I think its rare to have a fiction novel that never describes what a character is thinking or feeling, though obviously, they exist.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the difference between objective and omniscient, too. I'm currently reading One of Ours for 20.7 and I suspect it is objective. It does describe what characters are feeling, but is similar to the example given for War and Peace. I tried simply googling "narrative mode Willa Cather One of Ours" and sadly it did not pull up link telling me what it is. Is there some (internet) place I could search that might tell me outright?

Here's a sample bit:
"They had talked about everything but the thing he had come to say. As he looked out into the garden he felt that he would never get it out . There was something in the way the mint bed burned and floated that made one a fatalist,--afraid to meddle."

Leigh wrote: "I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the difference between objective and omniscient, too. I'm currently reading One of Ours for 20.7 and I suspect it is objective. It d..."

Leigh, from what I can see of this, it wouldn't fit for 20.3. It looks like a good one for 20.7.

In your example, the author writes: As he looked out into the garden he felt that he would never get it out .

This is the clue, that in the narrative itself, the author tells you how the character feels or thinks. If on the other hand, she had the character say in dialogue to another person, "I felt I would never get out" then it could still be objective because you learn the thoughts/feelings from what the character says, not what the narrator says.

Sorry! I'm having a bit of a "doh!" moment. I misread read the earlier post about War and Peace and thought it met the criteria. Its the only reason I thought mine might meet it.

Leigh wrote: "Here's a sample bit:
"They had talked about everything but the thing he had come to say. As he looked out into the garden he felt that he would never get it out . There was something in the way the mint bed burned and floated that made one a fatalist,--afraid to meddle."

That right there is why it is not objective. The author is telling you how the character felt. They are inside the character(s) head(s).

Third person objective is like the author has pulled up a chair in the corner of the room, observed what the other people in the room were doing, and then relayed that information to you. He can tell you that someone seemed or appeared angry by the look on their face, the way they clench their fists, or the sound of their voice (they can even just come right out and say "I'm pissed off!"), but he can't tell you how they feel or what they think any more than you could if it were you in the room.

From what I understand, it's difficult to do well and it's not done that often. I hope that helps a little?

Leigh wrote: "Sorry! I'm having a bit of a "doh!" moment. I misread read the earlier post about War and Peace and thought it met the criteria. Its the only reason I thought mine might meet it."

:-)

Thank you for posting For Whom the Bell Tolls! I didn't find that one on any of my searches.

I have a question about The Lottery and Other Stories (which I also have at home right now). Flipping through, it seems like most of the stories are written in third person limited or first person. Can we still use it for this task? Alternately, could we read at least 100 pages of short stories (The Lottery, Hills Like White Elephants, etc) written in this POV?

Cait wrote: "Alternately, could we read at least 100 pages of short stories (The Lottery, Hills Like White Elephants, etc) written in this POV?"

That will be fine, Cait. When you post, be sure to tell us the number of pages of each, and if you review, something of each of the stories you read.

If you choose to read the complete Jackson collection that will be all right, too, even though some of the stories don't fully meet the criteria of this task.

Cait wrote: "Thank you for posting For Whom the Bell Tolls! I didn't find that one on any of my searches.

I have a question about The Lottery and Other Stories (which I also have at home right no..."

Don't thank me, you didn't find it on any of your searches because it's not. I was wrong, it's third-person limited and I confused the two. Sorry.

Rhea wrote: "Cait wrote: "Thank you for posting For Whom the Bell Tolls! I didn't find that one on any of my searches.

I have a question about The Lottery and Other Stories (which I also have at home right no..."

Don't thank me, you didn't find it on any of your searches because it's not. I was wrong, it's third-person limited and I confused the two. Sorry.
..."

Noooo! I had For Whom the Bell Tolls planned for 20.3 (as of this morning). Now I'm going to have to find another book for this one.

I was planning on The Pearl but further research says its omniscient. I did come up with Billy Budd, Sailor as a 3rd person objective example in my research. Are other story collections that include stories in this narrative acceptable? - a Hemingway collection, for example. For now I'm going with Billy Budd.

Karen GHHS wrote: "I was planning on The Pearl but further research says its omniscient. I did come up with Billy Budd, Sailor as a 3rd person objective example in my research. Are other stor..."

"Hills Like White Elephants" by Ernest Hemingway has come up numerous times in my searches. It was originally published in the collection Men Without Women.

OK, we're going to expand this task a bit as people seem to be struggling with it. Liz will make the change to the description above and on the task list later this evening.

20.3 Read a book written in third-person objective, a narrative mode in which the story is told without describing any character's thoughts, opinions, or feelings; instead it gives an objective, unbiased point of view. This point of view can be described as a "fly on the wall" or "camera lens" approach that can only record the observable actions, but does not interpret these actions or relay what thoughts are going through the minds of the characters. Notable examples include the well-known hard-boiled dective novel The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett, The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, or the nouveau roman novel Jealousy by Alain Robbe-Grillet.

You may read a collection of short stories by one author in which some of the stories are written in third-person objective and some are not. You may also choose to read several short stories by different authors as long as the combined length is over 100 pages.

Additionally, this task is expanded to include any book written in third-person limited style, so that the story is limited to the telling by just one person. While it may be omniscient in style, the single character can know only his own thoughts and feelings, not the thoughts and feelings of the other characters. Third person limited is described further here: third person limited

Hooray for our wonderful moderators!

Does either The Good Earth or The Scarlet Letter work for this task? Thank you

Paula wrote: "Does either The Good Earth or The Scarlet Letter work for this task? Thank you"

The Good Earth works, but The Scarlet Letter does not.

Another example of third person objective is
The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe

I have not read the book but found it as an example here

http://vickie-britton.suite101.com/wr...

Jenna wrote: "Another example of third person objective is
The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe

I have not read the book but found it as an example here

http://vickie-britton.suite101.c..."

Nice! Thanks. And welcome to the reading challenge!

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Paula wrote: "Does either The Good Earth or The Scarlet Letter work for this task? Thank you"

The Good Earth works, but The Scarlet Letter does not."

Thanks! I just needed one so that's perfect :)

Fahrenheit 451 works because it is told in Third Person Limited. The other two books have multiple narrators so would work for 20.5.

Hi everyone,

I finished reading The Restaurant at the End of the Universe by Douglas Adams and I believe it would fall into 20.3 (B).

Can someone confirm that? I am finding it hard to determine what this one is.

Thank you!

HI Arow - yes, from what I can see online, this appears to work for this task! Enjoy!

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "HI Arow - yes, from what I can see online, this appears to work for this task! Enjoy!"

Thank you for your help!

I just finished A Monster Calls by Patrick Ness and I'm pretty sure it's third person limited narration. Could you check on that for me? The narrator only follows the thinking of the boy in the story and how he responds to the other characters.

Thanks!

Karen GHHS wrote: "I just finished A Monster Calls by Patrick Ness and I'm pretty sure it's third person limited narration. Could you check on that for me? The narrator only follows the..."

I can only get to the early part of this book, but it looks like it qualifies. And such a good book for Halloween!

I believe Elizabeth George's Mary, Called Magdalene fits part B of this category, any thoughts?

Kate S wrote: "I believe Elizabeth George's Mary, Called Magdalene fits part B of this category, any thoughts?"

Yes, from what I can read of this online, it appears to meet this task. Enjoy!

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Kate S wrote: "I believe Elizabeth George's Mary, Called Magdalene fits part B of this category, any thoughts?"

Yes, from what I can read of this online, it appears to meet this task..."

Thanks, Elizabeth, I did enjoy this one!!

I just finished Anansi Boys. I'd initially thought that I'd be able to use if for 20.3 S/he reads 3rd person limited. The majority, especially of the first half, is third person limited from the main character's (Fat Charlie's) perspective. However, as the book continues it is occasionally told from another character's perspective--a whole sections told in 3rd person limited, but say from Rosie's perspective. Does this disqualify it for 20.3?

Leigh wrote: "I just finished Anansi Boys. I'd initially thought that I'd be able to use if for 20.3 S/he reads 3rd person limited. The majority, especially of the first half, is third person limi..."

Sorry, if it is told from more than one perspective, it just won't fit. Fortunately, we have 20.5 and you can use it as many times as you like, so you'll still get the 20 points.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Leigh wrote: "I just finished Anansi Boys. I'd initially thought that I'd be able to use if for 20.3 S/he reads 3rd person limited. The majority, especially of the first half, is thi..."

I thought 20.5 was supposed to be first person narration alternating through different voices? It does meet 10.2, so its definitely usable.

20.5 is They/Multiple Narrators. For most novels, this would be third person and fits this task admirably. Occasionally multiple narrators could be first person, and would also fit 20.5, but it isn't required.

And, yay! You'll get the combo points for 10.2!

Thanks!