The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of December 1st through December 7th, we are reading approximately the next 50 pages of Herodotus - The Histories.

This thread will discuss the following book and sections:

(Book VII - Sections 106 - 239)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads.

NOTE:

In the Penguin Edition, Book VII, section 106 starts on page 450 and goes through section 239 which concludes on page 500.

This thread should only deal with these sections and with Book Seven (although previous parts of Herodotus already discussed can be referenced). No spoilers, please.

Discussion on these sections will begin on December 1st.

Welcome,

Bentley

TO SEE ALL THREADS FROM PREVIOUS WEEKS SELECT VIEW ALL

I guess I can't really speak to this issue since this is the only source I have, it is an interesting question though.

I was also glad to finally get to the battle after working through all the geography. Yes, there was a lot of silliness in the movie but I did enjoy reading the quote in ..(can't find the section)where he says that since the Persians have blocked the sun with their arrows, the Spartans will be able to fight in the shade. I remember that line being in the movie and didn't realize it was also in H's account.

Sarah

John Hart, "Herodotus and Greek History," has an interesting take on the Battle of Thermopylae which may allow us to glimpse a "patriotic" sort of bias in our First Historian. Thermoplyae is presented in "The Histories" as a noble venture, a "nationalistic" sacrifice, when, in fact, if one looks beneath the hyperbole of celebration, it was in fact a disaster and a blunder:

"He [Herodotus:] has fallen completely under the spell of the Spartan myth that turned a catastrophe into a triumph of sorts. In a sense this was fair, because Leonidas and his band were heroes at the finish, and by their self-sacrifice they did enable a large body of Peloponnesian hoplites to retreat in safety and fight another day. But Herodotus does not emphasise (what was surely true) that Thermopylae was a far more 'winnable' battle than Plataea, and by losing it the Greeks gave themselves a far greater and more difficult task to accomplish in the next round; nor that the loss came about through the commander's blunder: in full knowledge of the Anopaia path, and having a posted a guard there, he failed to ensure that they knew their orders or were in a proper state of readiness. Hydarnes' Immortals could and should have been stopped." (John Hart, "Herodotus and Greek History," pp 93-94, 1982)

Ah, "the fog of battle," if anything can go wrong -- it will...

I thought Hart's sobering analysis did much to help me see that Herodotus, at times, could (deliberately or unconsciously?) distort his narrative to subserve his political themes -- in this case, the greatness of the "little people" of Greece in staving off the conquests of a Goliath. I guess this might then lead us to ask whether or not "modern historical objectivity" should ever be expected from the Halicarnassian -- after all, he is "pre-historical" in our understanding of the term "history."

Prunesquallor,

I would agree that H. seems to put what I would call a romantic twist on the story. The men were willing to fight against all odds against them to the death. What struck me was in section 7.206. Here it says that Leonidas and his men were sent ahead with the remainder of the troops left behind to celebrate the festival of Karneia. Its one thing for men to fight against insurmountable odds, but the way it is written here, it seems like these men were sacrificed since unnecessarily.

Sarah

Hi, Sarah,

Yeah, "a romantic twist," and maybe this is one of the reasons why we have his manuscript almost in toto, while the supposedly more correct, less emotional-engaging works (like Ctesias) are preserved only in a few fragmentary quotes?

I have to admit, that even while I find his "historical accuracy and veracity" suspect, Herodotus does tell a good tale!

For this same reason, the 1963 movie-version of the Rorke's Drift Battle will probably remain the default image of the Zulu War, despite its many made-up, romanticized incidents of "history." LOL