Richard III discussion

I'm having my Directed Readings students (7th-9th grades) read "Who Murdered the Princes in the Tower?" in Mysteries of History by Plantagenet Somerset Fry. The book is no longer in print, but I have found used copies for sale online. Fry wrote largely for the Young Adult audience. His Kings and Queens of England and Scotland, which I also plan to use, has been republished in lavish DK editions. Is anyone privy to the conversations of publishing companies? I'd love to see this fun book reissued. Or--could the Richard III Society place this chapter on their site? I'm pretty sure it's in the public domain.

It appears that Kings & Queens is readily available used at Amazon. BTW, after researching the issue of the princes, I have come to the conclusion that the princes probably survived Richard. They weren't murdered!

Yes, I was able to secure a copy of Fry's *Kings and Queens* as well as his *Mysteries of History*, but I do wish the latter would be reissued. Regarding the survival of the boys, I was fascinated with Mary Shelley's novel about Perkin Warbeck and did a little digging to find out if elements of her novel had any basis in fact. I consider it a strong case for what might have happened. I also acquired a copy of the Holbein painting that purports to be symbolic representation of what happened to the princes, which I found at the R3 museum in York in 2008 . However, I can't get past the discovery of the skeletons of two boys in the Tower of London, unearthed in the eighteenth century. Your thoughts on that?

Oh my goodness, where to start? First, I highly doubt the skeletons were those of the princes. Two very strong cases against the bones being those of the princes can be found in Bertram Fields' Royal Blood and Annette Carson's Richard III: The Maligned King. Second, there is no contemporary extant records of Edward or Richard of having a diseased jaw, which the found tower bones showed that most probably the older skeleton had. Documentation in Croyland and other surviving contemporary records all showed the boys to have been healthy and athletically active (observed playing in the Tower gardens, shooting arrows, etc.). I think recent literature suggesting that Edward had a diseased jaw is a bit of either unintentional or intentional reverse engineering to satisfy the tower bones discovery. You might enjoy reading my blog post in my myth busting series: Did Edward V Have a Diseased Jaw?. Read the comments where Annette Carson and others have weighed in with some very interesting observations.

Joan

Thank you so much! This is a really interesting conundrum. I did my MA work back in the 1970s, so don't have a real clear memory about what I was reading back then, but I thought I had read (way back then) that there was documentation that Edward had been suffering with a "bad tooth" around the time he went missing. I look forward to reading the things you have recommended.

I think that's because so many accepted the bones without digging deeper. (Pun not intended, but after reading my post, I decided it's appropriate.) I found both Fields and Carson highly readable. You can read my review of Carson's book on my blog here and with Amazon's listing.

I recently bought a copy of Carson's book on Amazon. Hope to read it sometime this fall. Sounds more and more interesting to me.

@Mrs. C, I wish my teachers had taught me this part of history in school. Sadly, our World History Class was just kind of blah. Now that I am older I am fascinated and can't get enough of history. Of course being older and traveling makes you more interested, but I wish this stuff had been brought to my attention as a kid. I wouldn't have waited so long to learn. Also, as inaccurate as shows like The Tudors and all are, they at least peek interest in adults.I just want to say Thank You for bringing this part of history to your students. @Joan, very interesting? I love this site for all the historical input and different opinions. If we only knew what really happened to the Princes?

Never too late to learn anything! I was lucky in history, in great part from my father and unlucky in maths and physics but never let this stop me absorbing what I can. Rio, I would recommend you watch/read Starkey. I'm no great fan of the Tudors but Starkey is a popularizer and a sound academic rolled in one.
As you say, you are interested in different opinions, in my humble judgement Starkey is way above A.L. Rowse on the Tudors - i.e. a better historian and not under illusions of how bloody they were!
Happy hunting!

Actually, I can go on at length on how inadequate 'world' history is taught everywhere... the gaps... the chasms! Luckily for me I'm getting into Polk and learning something about our cousins across the pond!

I have watched several Starkey documentaries. The one on Elizabeth and the Monarchy one. That's why I love Netflix. They have all the hard to find documentaries and old movies. Starkey is a little dry and his usage of the same scenes and photos over and over drive me crazy, but overall yes, very informative.

Rio (Lynne) wrote: "@Mrs. C, I wish my teachers had taught me this part of history in school. Sadly, our World History Class was just kind of blah. Now that I am older I am fascinated and can't get enough of history. ..."

I agree, it's so rare to find a teacher willing to fire an interest in his/her students. I wish I'd had one, so thumbs up to you for caring to go the extra mile for your students.

Rio (Lynne) wrote: "I have watched several Starkey documentaries. The one on Elizabeth and the Monarchy one. That's why I love Netflix. They have all the hard to find documentaries and old movies. Starkey is a little ..."

Dry? Oh well, I have not found him so, but one can't legislate for empathy. Maybe my opinion is coloured by his other than 'historical' self. I have seen him on BBC debating many topics and have a different perspective. I still can't stand A.L. Rowse! To go onto Misfit's point, it may not be the extra mile so much as chemistry and/or other issues. At school I liked the Lt. Col. who taught history at O level but his voice sent me to sleep! - lovely character - but something did not work in class. Thankfully despite the dryness of the 1840s Corn Laws I survived the system!

I got very lucky in high school history, in that the woman I had for it for three years was in love with her subject, and wanted us to be as well.

Susanna wrote: "I got very lucky in high school history, in that the woman I had for it for three years was in love with her subject, and wanted us to be as well."

I wish I'd had a teacher like that...

Its never too late! For love. life or learning!

Rio (Lynne) wrote: "@Mrs. C, I wish my teachers had taught me this part of history in school. Sadly, our World History Class was just kind of blah. Now that I am older I am fascinated and can't get enough of history. ..."

This is one of the things I love most about classical education. Literature is treated as a document of the time period in which it emerged, and the students read primary sources of history. They are simultaneously enrolled in logic (four years) so that they learn how to weigh evidence. The whole Richard III "epic" lends itself beautifully to this approach. I'm also lucky to have a headmaster who says "yes" to experiments. He has allowed me to teach a class online (no extra charge to the students), so we have a discussion group on Goodreads. Thanks to everyone who helped me get ideas about books for this age group during the summer! The students began by coming over to my home and watching Al Pacino's *Looking for Richard*. Pacino has made a combination documentary/costumed performance about introducing Shakespeare to this generation. Very edgy and appealing to those who have come to love smart camera work. Of course, Richard (Pacino) is pure evil in the play (way better than Olivier for this generation). Then we read Fry's Chapter 8 in Mysteries of History and are about to launch into Josephine Tey's The Daughter of Time. (Thanks to the member who suggested this one!) From all of this, we will work backward into the Wars of the Roses, which is how I came to have a passion for this time period in the first place. Thanks again to everyone who had input into my R3 bibliography!