ROBUST discussion

Huh. It's only recently that I wrote anything in 1st person. I've always found third person much easier to write in.

Definitely not a fan of head hopping, but I can forgive it somewhat as long as it's limited to maybe just occasionally shifting back and forth between say, two characters.

I've had a number of debates with people on writing groups about it. For me, the big issue with head hopping is less confusion (unless it's really bad) but more a reset of the reader->character emotional/thought interface (unlike the consistent interface with the voice of the narrator in omni). I find that people head-hop in an attempt to try and get the reader more connected with multiple characters, but in the end, it always ends up distancing me.

I also will admit that there are some very big name authors who can buy and sell my entire family line with their piles of cash who head-hop like mad.

Here's another stylistic controversy: present tense.

I don't mind it all, but I know people and know of many people(such as my wife and Philip Pullman) who dislike present tense stories. Generally, I'm not particularly convinced it adds much and often just makes things seem unnecessarily hectic and thus dampen the overall emotional range (so I'm slightly in agreement with Pullman there), but I have no real antipathy toward it other than noting it is far easier to screw up a novel written in present tense than a novel written in past tense.

That being said, I was struck by the juxtaposition of historical fiction and present tense in Wolf Hall. Some people might just find it an exercise in artificial style, but it really worked for me there.

Kat wrote: "The pages are bleeding pink highlighter."

I once had a gay dentist, and we were inseparable, because I was his beard; in return I got all the girls his mother and her friends tried to fix him up with. (This was back when a nice Jewish boy couldn't possibly be queer... gay wasn't even a word then.) When eventually he came out of the cupboard, after his mother died, I asked the justice minister to tell the police that nobody messed with my pal's same-sex wedding, and he asked me to design it. I made it all pink, including the champagne and the icing on the wedding cake, and scallops in pink wine sauce (that was a mistake at a Jewish wedding - nobody's perfect, not even me), and pink flowers and favors for everyone. I even had the grass underfoot bleached and then sprayed pink. The rabbi gave me backchat. He didn't mind the pink suit and shirt, but he said he'd been wearing his blue polkadot bow tie since he was eighteen and he didn't feel confident of getting the tone of the wedding right without it; we compromised by spraying one of his bow ties pink, which took on the dots... Years later I dressed an actor in a play I produced in my own pink suit for that wedding, and the $%^&*()£$%^ stole it.

I wish I thought of pink highlighter; I could have hired Sidney Nolan to decorate each tablecloth with one of his famous koki chalk drawings of an erect penis a la Ern Malley... mmm, perhaps not at a Jewish wedding.

For me, writing in the third-person is difficult -- probably because my characters speak to me in the first-person. Sometimes I do a third-person story just to see if I can do it.

I would hate reading a head-jumping book. I have a friend who writes from multiple points of view, even within a single chapter, but she separates the sections with spaces so it's easy to follow along. That's about as much jumping as I can handle.

I'll give up on another type of book: one that has a lot of different characters, but it's told in a steady point-of-view. I have trouble keeping everyone clear in my mind. If I open a piece of fiction and it has a list of characters at the front with a description of each -- that's where I stop reading. I make an exception for non-fiction because it's sometimes necessary to do that. People show up briefly or in widely-separated sections, so it's important to have that reference.

Patrica - for you I will make an exception.

It's the newbie writers who can't handle it.

I once read an opening chapter that was a black woman's internal rant at how unfair life was and how cowardly black men were.

It was 10 pages of ranting.

Andre - I'm using pink highlighter for 'remove', green for 'add', blue for 'awkward or reword'. So far I've only used the pink and a bit of blue. LOL

I also have the habit of using pen and highlighter combinations for each pass through a manuscript. I'm partial to green and orange for some reason.

I've never been to a gay wedding - or a pink wedding. I guess back in those days the combination would be...memorable in the extreme.

Difficult working with academics, who're used to being in charge and to not being contradicted. Also, college novels aren't intended to sell, or even to be read, but to appear on a CV as a publication.

J.a. wrote: "I have no real antipathy toward it other than noting it is far easier to screw up a novel written in present tense than a novel written in past tense."

In a very early novel, Reverse Negative, I was naive enough to write half the thing as a computer-generated probability study (which started a games trend that was lucrative for me for several years), and to complicate a large part of it it with the present tense. Fortunate the novel had some good things about it too, it was published simultaneously on three continents by the sort of publishers whose authors are automatically reviewed in the opinion-forming press, and the reviews were excellent, otherwise my career as a writer would have tanked right there.

The standard ways of "doing the novel" have one really great thing going for it: if you have even a little talent, or none if you respect the language and read a lot, and you're meticulous about cutting and rewriting, everyone has one good story in him, and you can write a publishable book. (Nah, you won't make a living at it; that takes talent and professionalism and the kind of luck that smart people make for themselves. But one book is a doddle.)

But, if you're a smartarse, even if you're outrageously talented, you're cutting a rod for your own back by clever-clever crap like 1st person or multiple viewpoints, present tense, sections in italics, dialect, the list of dangerous pressure points just goes on and on.

Well, since the bubble has burst anyway, I'm just going on for the fun of it. My pulp NaNo project for November will be Vampire Planet and it will be in first person and I have no clue about tense. It probably won't be present tense.

Andre Jute wrote: "Difficult working with academics, who're used to being in charge and to not being contradicted..."

Yes, that part has me worried. However, since he's trusted me, I may as well do my best.

I couldn't resist telling him that setting up a Smashwords account was his 'homework.'

My sense of humor is outright dangerous some days.

Amos, sometimes you slay me... (just don't bite me please)

Kat, sometimes you are downright evil...

Maybe so, at least I am entertaining.

The look on his face was just priceless.

YEs. I think the bubble is just about to burst. Am writing a blogpost on it as we speak. Will come back when it's done and give you the url...

Good Libby! Looking forward to reading it.

Andre Jute wrote: "...college novels aren't intended to sell, or even to be read..."

I've read a few. My memories of them are curiously light on detail (perhaps because they were light on plot), thought I do remember a common theme of angst-flavored angst.

Back on topic ------

Anyone on KB noticed the LACK of bragging about sales this month?

I haven't seen a single thread - though I've been busy with other things. (Killed 2 pink highlighters, 1 ink pen and a bottle of Advil.)

Libby wrote: "YEs. I think the bubble is just about to burst. Am writing a blogpost on it as we speak. Will come back when it's done and give you the url..."

THe blog is up. "Too Much of a Good Thing?" is the title. You can find it at
http://libbyhellmann.com/wp

Well, it's kind of hard to judge. I know a lot of people doing as well as they have this month if not better.

That being said, I've seen a couple of threads on KB where people were bragging or being bragged for, and I've only been stopping in every couple of days. One author sold over 3000 this month, her highest ever.

I guess I've been out of the loop.

I went looking one day last week and found nothing.

@Libby - I agree the 'Dollar Dreadful' market is saturated - maybe another million or two readers will perk things up.

The telling date will be Black Friday.

@Libby - I agree the 'Dollar Dreadful' market is saturated - maybe another million or two readers will ..."

oooo... like "Dreadful Dollar" Havent heard it before.

The pulp fiction 'Penny Dreadful' is legendary.

So the e-pulp version is 'Dollar Dreadful'.

Will Black Friday actually be the big date for e-books?

That is given they are e-books, it's not like you need to 'buy' the book to give it to unwrap versus an Amazon gift card or something.

Post-Christmas they'll be a pile of gift cards and new e-readers in need of books, so I wonder if that would be more the date where there would be a big spike in ebook sales versus the hardware sales spiking on BF.

Not saying one way or another (I don't know personally), just honestly curious what the holiday e-book sales profile is shaping up to be. Last year, there were more ebooks sold in December than November, but there already was a huge underlying increasing trend, so it's hard to parse out the month-by-month difference there.

Well, Black Friday is when the majority of stores have their biggest sales. So that will be the kick-off. Best Buy has both Nooks and Kindles - which is right next door to our B&N. So here in town, things are looking interesting.

Our local B&N is stocking up on Nooks. The market here is pretty strong - so I'm thinking they will get their Nooks on BF and poke around on the website.

We'll see.

I would be very surprised if there are discounts on Kindles unless it's the older ones still in stock. They're too new and too much in demand to be put on sale. The Nook is rumored to be getting a new model around Nov. 7th. I wouldn't expect that newbie to be marked down either if, in fact, it materializes.

But a base kindle is like 109 now (79 with adware) Even I can afford one of those. lol.

All true - but you never now what Best Buy is going to do.

Christopher wrote: "a common theme of angst-flavored angst"

LOL.

Well, I've read Libby's post and I happen to agree.

The Dollar Dreadful market is saturated. There are so many of them it is impossible to get noticed on price point alone.

Which leaves 'free' as the only way to get noticed on price. Does anyone care to make a guess at how long it will take before the majority of the Dollar Dreadfuls become freebies?

On Amazon, it'll take forever. They don't let authors give their books away. Minimum price has to be 99 cents. Only exceptions I've found would be titles in the Kindle Store that are given away elsewhere. Amazon sweeps other e-book sites and if they find a title selling for less on those sites, they automatically lower the cost of the book in the Kindle Store to whatever that price is. Authors try that at their own peril because Amazon's KDP contract forbids them to sell their book elsewhere for less. They could end up being tossed out of the Kindle Store if Amazon decides to enforce that part of the contract.

The KDP contract says you can't sell them somewhere else for less? Sheesh. I never knew that. Good to know.

Christopher wrote: "The KDP contract says you can't sell them somewhere else for less? Sheesh. I never knew that. Good to know."

It said that when I signed up. I haven't revisited the contract over the past year or thereabouts so that may no longer be the case. I'll bet it is, though.

Christopher: I just checked and, yep, it's still there along with some other restrictions I didn't see before. From the pricing page on KDP:

4. Setting Your List Price

You must set your Digital Book's List Price (and change it from time-to-time if necessary) so that it is no higher than the list price in any sales channel for any digital or physical edition of the Digital Book.

But if you choose the 70% Royalty Option, you must further set and adjust your List Price so that it is at least 20% below the list price in any sales channel for any physical edition of the Digital Book.

By "list price in any sales channel," we mean the suggested or recommended retail price or, if you sell your book directly to end users, your own sales price, for an edition of the book available outside of our Program.

When you set your List Price for our EU websites, you have to factor in the additional 15% value-added taxes (the Luxembourg statutory rate) we will add for EU customers, so that your List Price complies with this section after adding these VAT taxes.

Yep, it's a bit complicated.

I know it's the major market, But I do avoid Amazon mostly as they won't let me post free titles (like short stories and promos). And their fine print sucks. lol.

The term 'dollar dreadfuls' was exactly why I put the price of my books up this month. I sold a grand total of 4 books (all Treespeaker, 0 x The Dragon Box) - which is more than I actually expected at that price. I think it's a matter of hanging in there until the bubbles settle. I'm happy to do the occasional giveaway, but I'm not going to go free forever.

I have a few freebies. So far they are all short stories that serve a particular marketing purpose or are for a specific audience (Like the agility dog people). The higher price of 2.99 to 3.99 seems to actually work better, although I will be experimenting with a free (forever) novel early next year (first of a three part series)

I'm working on getting 'Impressive Bravado' free - it has the blurbs for the two books in it. It seems to be the best sales tool - the others haven't worked as well.

But getting it through the Meatgrinder has proven unexpectedly difficult - because the story has gone through 3 or 4 different word processors. Invisible codes are simply disgusting. 3 nukes and some minor revisions later, I'm still hoping for it to go through.

Patricia said: From KDP: You must set your Digital Book's List Price (and change it from time-to-time if necessary) so that it is NO HIGHER than the list price in any sales channel for any digital or physical edition of the Digital Book.

But if you choose the 70% Royalty Option, you must further set and adjust your List Price so that it is at least 20% below the list price in any sales channel FOR ANY PHYSICAL EDITION of the Digital Book.

By "list price in any sales channel," we mean the suggested or recommended retail price or, if you sell your book directly to end users, your own sales price, for an edition of the book available outside of our Program.

The caps are mine. That reads to me that you cannot list your book for a higher price than listed elsewhere and that you must list a lower price if you are in the 70% range. Which means KDP want you to list for less than you do elsewhere. Unless I'm missing something? They don't want you to list your books for free, because what's in it for them if you do?

Everyone here already knows I am sure that I have never been able to find supporting evidence that selling your book for less than $2.99 makes any kind of financial sense. Unless it truly is a 'Dollar Dreadful', ie. Pulp Fiction, and you are cranking out a bajillion books. Putting your book at .99, imho, screams: BEWARE - THIS IS A DOLLAR DREADFUL BOOK. IT IS EITHER PULP FICTION OR FULL OF ERRORS.

I don't frequent KB much anymore but when I did no one seemed to have any success putting a quality book on sale for .99 and then raising the price. If anyone has empirical evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

Was there ever truly a bubble to burst? This is a new frontier. But here's the thing: Once the majority of books are read on devices large and small, the playing field just got level. Vetted or not, trad published or indie, the ones who will win are those who have built a platform OFF KB. Everyone, including trad pubs are going to be scrambling to figure out how to reach readers. And money won't be the only issue..

ps. I'm not against Pulp Fiction, I even sometimes read it. It's just that if one wants to make any money from their writing (and I know some of you don't), it is becoming abundantly clear that the .99 cent price point is not for you unless you write PF.

Sharon, here's my take on it: Amazon doesn't want you to offer your book on another site with a list price of, say $5, but a selling price of $2.99 -- then put it on Amazon with a list price of $2.99. Although it would be selling for the same price, on the other site it would appear to the customer that s/he's saving money (if the customer doesn't bother shopping around), while on the Amazon site the list price and sales price match, thus there's no (artificial) savings. Amazon got where it is by cutting the list price on what they sell, and they do -- though not very often -- give a reduction from the list price on Indie titles. When I've seen this, they've priced 99-cent books at about 79-cents. Authors have been surprised when seeing their work on sale.

I think Amazon is making a mistake by sweeping up books offered free elsewhere and reducing them to free in the Kindle Store. If you follow all the freebies that are offered, you'll see a lot of self-pubbed stuff that looks less than appealing. But people gobble them up, and drive them up the charts. When I first got my Kindle, I was right there with those folks, downloading lots of books I wouldn't actually read. I've stopped doing that.

I started out at 99-cents for my books. At some point I raised the price on most of them but had few sales. I went back to 99-cents, then heard from several authors that they, too, had few sales over the same period my brief experiment covered. I considered raising prices again but didn't until I noticed this:

One of my titles is returned more times than I consider reasonable. My other titles haven't been returned at all as far as I recall, but at least one copy of that troublesome title would come back each month. Sometimes it was three or four returns. I got it into my head that maybe the 99-cent price was causing people to purchase it without really looking into it via a sample. I thought maybe there would be fewer returns if I upped the price to nudge people toward being a little less impulsive when purchasing it. I priced it at $2.99. After that, I got one return. So then I went even higher: $4.99. I haven't had any returns since raising the price to that level and I'm still selling at about the same pace (which is not a very impressive pace, but at least it's steady). It may be nothing more than a coincidence that returns disappeared at the higher price, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I have also raised the price of my other titles. I think I have only one book still at 99-cents, but it's a very short one (a collection of poems and short stories).

I'm done fooling around with prices. They are what they are and what they will be. Either they sell or they don't. I'm happy either way.

That's really interesting about the returns - is that when someone deletes a book from their Kindle unread?

Mhairi wrote: "That's really interesting about the returns - is that when someone deletes a book from their Kindle unread?"

It's worse than that. They contact Amazon and have the purchased undone. The books disappears from their Kindle and their money is returned.

Amazon gives people a week to return a book, but it looked to me like people returned my book very fast. I'd see a sale, then boom!, it went away with a return indicated on the account. The title in question could be assumed to be something it isn't if someone just glances at it and buys it without actually checking to see what they're buying. It has J.D. Salinger's name in the title (which must bring people to that page because they're searching for Salinger's work), and the cover is the same color as one of the covers that's been used for Catcher in the Rye. I suspect they think they're buying that instead of reading the description where it's made clear it's a novel by lowly me (and my co-author, John Philpin).

Well, damn! Jeez, surely they could read the freaking headline and see that it's not by Salinger! I don't understand people who do that. And I hate people who charge stuff back on principle.

Boo sucks to them!

Mhairi wrote: "Well, damn! Jeez, surely they could read the freaking headline and see that it's not by Salinger! I don't understand people who do that. And I hate people who charge stuff back on principle.

Boo s..."

Keep in mind I'm just guessing that may be what happens. I noticed that someone selling a guide to Salinger's work got trashed in reviews because people bought it, thinking it was a book by Salinger. To my eye, it was clear it was not by him, but about his work.

People are often ignorant, or downright stupid (who buys anything without finding out what it is first?) and then blame it on the manufacturer - in this case the author. There's just no telling some people.

K. A. wrote: "Invisible codes are simply disgusting. 3 nukes and some minor revisions later, I'm still hoping for it to go through."

1. Copy the text out of your Word doc.

2. Paste it into a text processor.

3. Set the text app to Plaintext. This is a crucial step.

4. Copy the Plaintext out of the text processor.

5. Open a brandnew, blank Word doc. Do not just trash the text out of your old doc. (If you fail this step, take the evening off to dye your hair blonde.)

6. Paste the plaintext into your brandnew, blank Word doc.

7. Format all of it with a simple paragraph style.

8. Format chapter heads etc.

9. Use page breaks. There must be no, none, zero, section breaks. EPUB can't handle them.

10. Do not edit in this document except for formatting or Word will write back crap you don't want.

11. Send to Smashwords.

Returns.

I like Sierra's "mistaken purchase" explanation. One book that has consistent returns of 5-7% of all sales is STIEG LARSSON Man, Myth & Mistress, which is a book of literary criticism. I think it very likely that people buy it in the belief (or hope) that they're getting a novel BY Stieg Larsson that they haven't read before. This despite the fact that the authors' names are pretty big on the covers:



Amazon doesn't help by categorizing this book as a "technothriller".

Thanks Andre!

Patricia said: Sharon, here's my take on it: Amazon doesn't want you to offer your book on another site with a list price of, say $5, but a selling price of $2.99 -- then put it on Amazon with a list price of $2.99. Although it would be selling for the same price, on the other site it would appear to the customer that s/he's saving money (if the customer doesn't bother shopping around), while on the Amazon site the list price and sales price match, thus there's no (artificial) savings. Amazon got where it is by cutting the list price on what they sell, and they do -- though not very often -- give a reduction from the list price on Indie titles. When I've seen this, they've priced 99-cent books at about 79-cents. Authors have been surprised when seeing their work on sale.

That all makes good sense, Patricia, thanks.

Sharon, you need to worry when you start thinking I'm making sense.

Andre Jute wrote: "Amazon doesn't help by categorizing this book as a "technothriller"."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, but really, that's just...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mhairi wrote: "Andre Jute wrote: "Amazon doesn't help by categorizing this book as a "technothriller"."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, but really, that's just...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

Careful, Mhairi, Amazon will bill you for the amusement...

Thanks, Patricia. I thought I read all the verbiage carefully when I was going through KDP, but I guess I didn't. Though, my memory is dreadful, a fact that my wife uses to her great advantage.

"You don't remember saying...?"