ROBUST discussion

When Treespeaker was on Victorine's blog last week, one of the suggestions made by a reader was that my book would sell better if I didn't have so many five-star reviews which gave the impression that I'd got my friends and family to review. I have to admit that even though I let it go for a while I still wrote a snarky reply which I then had to delete. Of the six reviews on Amazon, none are family, four are people I know from websites I frequent (I've never actually met them) and two are from total strangers.

My first totally independent review was a 3 star, but she didn't post it to Amazon. At the time I thought that was good, but now I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been better if she did? Obviously the 'stacking' of reviews has turned people off, but Amazon isn't the only place they can look. I have lower than 5 star reviews here and on Smashwords, so why is it such a big deal on Amazon? Do I need to do what someone on the Kindleboards suggested and set up a group with the aim of giving each other bad reviews? (The suggestion was tongue-in-cheek and so is my repetition of it.)

I see mention of this rather often in the Kindle forum. People say they don't trust five-star reviews -- which strikes me as kind of crazy. If I gave reviews, which I don't, all my reviews would be 5-star because only those books I truly love would prompt me to post a review. If I hated the book or was lukewarm about it, I wouldn't bother.

If I were a betting woman, which I am, I'd bet that readers in general are not like those who hang out in a forum fretting about the possibility reviews are planted. For that reason, I wouldn't sweat it.

When people go to the trouble of clicking on reviewers' profiles, and checking the dates and content of their other reviews, I'd say they have an agenda. They're out to prove an author is undeserving of praise rather than looking for something good to read. I see this behavior mostly in posters who have an aversion to Indie authors, or they're trying to protect their own Indie title by attacking another Indie. If they were simply searching for reading material, all they'd have to do is grab the free sample and see for themselves if the writing and formatting appeals to them.

I'm also dubious of the 'you must have a bad review' idea. I mean if you have nothing but 5-stars that are one liners like 'This is the best book EVAR' than, yeah, maybe, but the Treespeaker reviews are pretty lengthy and thoughtful, address particular plot aspects, et cetera.

The thing is, the average person is motivated to do a review only for extreme reasons--they really liked it or they really hated it.

Also, I know some indies who are doing decently well and don't have a 'bad' review. For example, my friend Katy Hanna has sold over a 1000 copies of her novel Breakdown, and she has nothing but 4s and 5s at Amazon.

I hadn't thought of it that way, Patricia and J.a., but your reasoning seems pretty logical to me. There does seem to be an obsession on the various writers' forums with who's got what. I'm getting more and more to the point where I think I should just stay out of these places (except this one, of course) and put all my energy into my next book...but that's what you've all been telling me for a long time, isn't it?

What it comes down to, in my opinion, is the illusion of control. Sure, the are things you can do to help your book sell (marketing, covering, good editing, et cetera), but there's also just a good ol' fashioned heaping of luck and timing involved.

I think a lot of indies are obsessed with the idea if they just find the magic 'formula', they'll be able to do that and sell 500,000 copies. I'm definitely not anti-marketing, being aware of consumer psychology, et cetera, but the reality is more content is something an author can control, especially in a world where the books no longer have a shelf-life.

I'm learning that J.a. After all the hype this last two weeks of being on Vicki's blog and changing my cover and being on three blogs at once, I've sold the grand total of 2 books - and one of them was to someone who liked the first cover better! I've also managed to give away 10 copies through Smashwords, but only with a LOT of twittering.

Off to write...or should I go and look for a four-leaf clover?

I think I gave away about 30 paradise in September. People are funny about freebies. Starting to get a few sequel sales now tho. You need that sequel!!! (finished yet? lol) Both covers are nice btw. I prefer the first, but the second stands out in thumbnail.

I can alter mine to a 1 star review if you like.;) One of my top download freebies has a one star on B&N. lol.

This makes no sense whatsoever
Bad writing. Unintelligible plot. Just episodes without connection of any kind following one another. No character development. No sense. No *

I love that review. Another good seller has a review that says the book is full of errors. Will have to update that one day. sigh.

Sorry, but I am one who does not give 5 star reviews, unless I feel the book is good enough to become a classic. Otherwise, what would one use to differentiate such a book.

When I first started reading Kindle books, I was shocked to find many with multiple 5 star reviews that had a profusion of typo and grammatical errors, and as a result am cautious about buying these books.

I never expected to review books, but as time went on I found several good books that deserved to find an audience. It's not easy to get book reviews, so I try to do my part by posting an honest review. If I read a book with lots of errors I will pm the author, but I do not post a negative review. What they do with the information is up to them.

Don't worry about having only 5 star reviews. Many reviewers do regularly give 5 stars to books they feel are good. It's a matter of personal preference. With the care you seem to take with Treespeaker, Katie, I am sure the book deserves every one of them ~ and equally sure you will soon find your audience...

I changed mine to one star and said it was terrible. Hope that helps!

Aw, gee, thanks Amos. I owe you one! ;)

Sharon said: "Don't worry about having only 5 star reviews. Many reviewers do regularly give 5 stars to books they feel are good. It's a matter of personal preference. With the care you seem to take with Treespeaker, Katie, I am sure the book deserves every one of them ~ and equally sure you will soon find your audience..."

Thanks, Sharon. I hope so.

I only give 4 and 5. On my scale a 3 means I gave up. lol.

Amos wrote: "I only give 4 and 5. On my scale a 3 means I gave up. lol." That's the thing, isn't it? Not only does taste differ from reader to reader, but also the 1 to 5 star ranking.
I'm a pretty forgiving reader (I think), and I give out quite a few 3 / 4 and 5 stars. But I don't give out many 1 or 2 stars for the simple reason that I don't continue reading when i really don't like a book.

I was different before i got my Kindle. I would read every book until the bitter end. I don't bother anymore. So many books, so little time.

I actually had one reader tell me on my Facebook page that she'd read and enjoyed Treespeaker and had thought she'd review it and give it 4 stars, but when she got to Amazon and saw all the 5 stars, didn't want to spoil it for me. After seeing the comment on Victorine's blog, she was rethinking that!

I'm concerned with Kindleboards as a kind of Indie Ghetto. There are social standards that don't amount to a hill of horsepoop in the reader's eyes.

Just as 'hopping cars' are popular in certain sectors of the population - and unheard of elsewhere - the average KB member is over-the-top about reviews, stars, sales numbers per day and pandering to each other.

For my own mental health, I can't spend too much time there.

Victorine is a nice person. However, how many readers are going to weigh in on it? Not very many. But you will have every Indie writer with an opinion.

Kat wrote: "Victorine is a nice person. However, how many readers are going to weigh in on it? Not very many. But you will have every Indie writer with an opinion."
You make some valid points. But lots of people read Victorine's blog, so it is exposure. And Indie writers are also avid readers, I would assume.

Kat wrote: "I'm concerned with Kindleboards as a kind of Indie Ghetto. There are social standards that don't amount to a hill of horsepoop in the reader's eyes.

Just as 'hopping cars' are popular in certai..."

Yep!

Sharon, I understand your reasoning, but for me any book that connects with me, holds my interest to the end, and makes me happy I read it is a five-star-worthy book. By that, I mean five-star worthy to me and perhaps only one-star worthy to anyone else. That's one reason I don't do reviews. They're so subjective, and my taste is so non-mainstream, I can't see how anything I'd have to say would be helpful to other readers. I also seldom read reviews until after I've read a book. I do like hearing from the writer via interviews prior to reading. They're usually wise enough not to give away too much of the plot, but not all reviewers are.

As for classics, well, my taste is so low-brow I don't fall in love with many of them. Don't even finish many of them.

The older I get, the less patience I have for fiction. I'm not sure how or why this transition to non-fiction took place, but that is what I find most satisfying. But no matter what I read, I forget most of it in record time. We're often advised to live in the "now". I haven't figured out how to live there, but that's where I read.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's not exposure - or that changes didn't need to be made.

I'm speaking of KB in general. Even DWS disparaged the group-think that comes from spending too much time there.

The Dollar Dreadful is the first thing that comes to mind.

Now so many writers are selling at the bottom that a book has to go all the way down to get noticed. Then it's just another minow swimming in a sea of little fish.

I have done that with StM and I'm VERY unhappy about it.

Patricia said: ...no matter what I read, I forget most of it in record time. We're often advised to live in the "now". I haven't figured out how to live there, but that's where I read.

Rolling on the floor here... I sooo relate to that!


Classics are not necessarily high-brow, in fact many of them aren't. Just don't ask me to name them right off the top of my 'living in the now' head...

Catcher in the Rye would be one; To Kill a Mockingbird is another; then there's The Great Gatsby. Which happen to be the three I've liked. I'll give them twenty stars.

Recently I read a product page for a collection of short stories I own and read (not too long ago, too) -- but not one story that was mentioned rang a bell with me. I think it's time to send my memory out for repairs.

Good choices, though I must admit I'm not certain I read TKaM, I think I only saw the movie. It's on my TBR pile, actually.

20 stars, eh? Y'know one of the probs with the ratings systems on the sites for which I post reviews, is that they are so limited. I don't necessarily think I want 10 star systems, but it would be useful to have 1/2 stars like Library Thing provides.

Lemme know the name of the repair shop, will ya?

I'd love if half-stars became more common. Yeah, yeah, I know stars are subjective and all that, but given that they are already in place, I just want a bit more nuance when leaving ratings.

I use smashwords and generally don't take a lot of notice of reviews. 20-50% sample is all I need :) I don't bother if they have a small sample. Reviews are a little meaningless at times. People like a book and give it 5 stars or they hate it and don't review - or give it 1 star. Some people hate LOTR and give it 2 stars. I still like it :)

I'm a 2 star LOTR person myself, Amos. Couldn't even make it through The Hobbit. And I've tried three times.

The reviews on the book you posted about were very short and mostly sweet, weren't they Bethany? But one pointed out a spelling mistake on the cover, which isn't there now, so they must have gone back and fixed it. Or I just can't see it because I'm looking too hard.

I've just been on KB - the readers' part, not Writer's Cafe - and found the following comment on a thread about Fantasy books -

"These days I like a dark and brooding tale, something that leaves you thinking about it long after you finish reading the book. Good examples of that are Joe Abercrombie's work (recommended previously above), Name of the Wind by Rothfuss and Treespeaker by Stewart." (Colin Taber)

Forget reviews! Being compared to Abercrombie and Rothfuss is enough to keep me writing for a long time to come!!! (Yes, I'm in a 3-exclamation-mark mood after seeing that!!!)

My wife does really short reviews. I do too sometimes. Get lazy. lol.

And 2 star LOTR. Cool. You heathen. This is my point, I suppose. I love books that people hate. And vice versa.

And yeah. Looks like the cover typo is gone. I panic about cover typos too. lol.

Tastes change over time.

I've got books I used to love - LotR is one of them - I couldn't re-read them today. Last time I sat down with LotR I skimmed most of it.

I think it has something to do with the amount of physical work I've got to do. I concentrate better when I'm more physically active.

Patricia wrote: "Sharon, I understand your reasoning, but for me any book that connects with me, holds my interest to the end, and makes me happy I read it is a five-star-worthy book. By that, I mean five-star wort..."

I'm with Patricia! I don't write many reviews, but even just my ratings here on Goodreads - a satisfying read is worth 5 stars, because the story has done its job.

I played on the KB only for a couple of days - the atmosphere was extremely negative in every group I checked out. I make a point to avoid on-line negativity because there's enough of that in my real life, thanks.

If you want to discuss writing, and how to improve your writing, the best place on the KB is the Book Corner, because the readers are more interested in good writing than the writers. The writers are mainly interested in finding the magic bullet of big sales, and on the evidence of the threads in The Writer's Cafe, more than half of them think it has to do with understanding the Amazon algorithm rather than writing better or more. Quality writing is not rated highly on KB and, until very recently, there was a semi-official policy that no indie writer wrote badly; check the dumb comments on the Slush Pile articles on Kissing the Blarney when I crossposted them to KB.

I was thinking on my bike ride today that it is odd in how few places where indies gather writing is actually discussed. ROBUST is the only group I know where the majority of the threads are in some way connected to making better books. That's an exceedingly odd state of affairs.

Even on Authonomy writers rarely discuss the craft of writing. Usually, when the topic is broached it degenerates into a flame war.

Sometimes I get the feeling the KB crew is afraid to talk about writing.

I don't use either forum. Somehow I don't feel that I am missing out on anything.

Kat wrote: "Even on Authonomy writers rarely discuss the craft of writing. Usually, when the topic is broached it degenerates into a flame war.

Sometimes I get the feeling the KB crew is afraid to talk abou..."

...because if they accept that they still have something to learn about the craft, it implies that they may have published something that's not perfect? And we all know that ALL indie books are great, don't we?

Getting back to reviews...I recently sent my book to this reviewer after finding her here on Goodreads. She's only just put up her rating system for Indie books and now I'm quaking a bit...
http://starlitreading.blogspot.com/20...

Looks promising - as long as the site gets enough hits to make it worth the writer's time.

I've been sending books out since July and not heard back from a reviewer yet.

I've been in plenty of discussions on Autho about head-hopping and been amazed at the number of people who find it 'acceptable' some even call it 'omni' PoV - though I'm skeptical about their definition of 'omni'.

Yeah... That would be 1 or 2 stars for me... maybe ;) But yours should be okay.

Just read some of the stuff she says. It put me right off her. lol. I wouldn't send anything there :)

I think she should go write a few books, then get back to me :)

Kat, they're right. Sort of. The third-person omniscient narrator can know -- and tell -- what's going on in every character's mind, and can even tell the reader things that no character knows. But it takes skill to pull that off and I suspect that when you notice head hopping, it's because the author has set out to write in the third person limited point view, zips along doing that, then suddenly gets into another character's mind. That's when it's jarring.

I guess it's a definition thing.

Omni, to me, is about having a consistent narrative voice. The consistency basically ensures you'll have no jarring transition because the voice isn't altered. The reader/character interface isn't truly reset because the interface is with the narrator and not the character necessarily directly.

Head-hopping, to me, reflects a POV change where there's a loss in a consistency in the voice.

It's the difference between Patrick O'Brian (a fascinating study in nesting POV in some of his books) and Nora Roberts. Though the latter is proof that one can head-hop like mad and sell huge piles of books.

I enjoy reading Nora Roberts - even though her head-hopping drives me nuts.

I did discover, when I noticed the practice and decided to stop doing it, it takes a lot more skill and thought to keep to one PoV instead of hopping about like a grasshopper.

The characters actually have to TALK to each other instead of meaningless dialog used as a filler. It was a revelation that led me to ask 'what does this character want?'

Which led me into all sorts of discoveries, like tension and conflict. LOL

I'll stick to what I know while writing novels, and experiment with short stories. I don't think I could write a novel consistently in anything besides 3rd right now.

Head hopping 1st person could be fun. You know you want to.

Amos wrote: "Head hopping 1st person could be fun. You know you want to."

I guess if your character had some sort of multiple personality disorder...

Hmm. If I change to 1st person POV of the human girl who takes on the vampire soul that could work... But I think I'll just stick to the main vampire chick. Maybe she can read minds and head hop that way ;)

btw, you get many sales on Amazon, Katie? I still haven't bothered putting mine there due to the IRS hassles. Just working with Smashwords so far. Hoping Mark will work in a deal one day. lol.

I get more sales on Amazon than on Smashwords, but still not enough yet to be worried about the IRS thing. I did go and see my accountant about it, but he just said, 'American tax laws are a nightmare!' and sent me off to research some more!

I'm working on it, but damn... just... damn... I think I have a solution. I'll let you know if it works. lol.

Katie wrote: "Getting back to reviews...I recently sent my book to this reviewer after finding her here on Goodreads. She's only just put up her rating system for Indie books and now I'm quaking a bit...
http://..."

Sounds like this gal has just read one too many indie books she found on KB, Katie, I'm betting with the care you have taken with Treespeaker, you will get a good review. Hang onto the positives such as: ...and Treespeaker by Stewart." (Colin Taber). As Kat says, it is difficult getting authentic reviews.

I like Nora Roberts, too. I can follow her just fine and mostly her romances are not just plain stupid (though I have not read one in a year or two). But then again I head-hop around in my own mind on a daily basis, :-).

I don't know about Au but in Canada the powers that be have worked it out with the IRS and the 'rules' of income tax on such things are very succinctly laid out. (And Amazon, who are not nearly as stupid as folks like to think, have some knowledge of what they have to hold back (if any) for the IRS). If not, wouldn't it be a nice position to be in to have to hire a tax lawyer?

Amazon sends a 1099 to US authors (and the government). Just add it into your taxable income, minus your expenses/deductions. In my case, the government tells me to buy a cup of coffee with my royalties and forget the tax.

Until all the paperwork is done they withhold 30%. Get it sorted then it's 5%. It's still BS that the US think they deserve any of it. lol. Getting a ITIN is the hassle. Should have it sorted soon.

Oh, I see. You're not in the US. They don't withhold anything here.