The Sword and Laser discussion

So based on a few recommendations (including Veronica's from a few podcasts back) and its appearance on the NPR Top 100, I read Kushiel's Dart.

I enjoyed it. Not as much as Veronica, but definitely liked it.

But it has some weirdness (minor spoilers ahead...not worth using the spoiler tag, because they're not specific enough).

When I told my wife about the book, she said it sounded like a thousand pages of Sansa Stark. And it kind of is. Phèdre is a lot like Sansa in that she idealizes this world of nobility. The difference is that for Sansa, that world comes crashing down around her. For Phèdre, it's all just reinforced at the end.

My initial take on the book was that it was Dune with a lot of sex. And that's true too. Although with Dune, the stakes are an awful lot higher. The spice must flow, after all, and if it doesn't the entire universe can't function. In this book, Terre d'Ange doesn't do much of anything. It's purely aristocratic, and we never get any view of how the rest of the country lives (Phèdre doesn't seem to care in the slightest). That gave the whole thing a really weird vibe for me, as I didn't really give a toss about who sat on the throne. Sure, Phèdre seemed to care, so I went along with it, but really, who cares? They're all just squabbling nobles, and there's nothing really at stake beyond their nobility. And if this whole society really is based on 16th century France, then I guess that aristocracy has another 150 years to go before it all comes crashing down around them.

Another problem: Phèdre never really grows as a character in this book. Her faith at the start is the same as her faith at the end. Other characters change pretty drastically, but she's awfully smug in her faith for the entire journey, and it remains unchallenged. Right up to the end I was hoping for some revelation about Kushiel's Dart that would change the way she sees it, but nope, it's pretty much what she thought the whole time. That seemed a little odd.

It took me a while to really decide if this even qualifies as a fantasy novel...and about 3/4ths of the way through, it absolutely does, when we meet the Master of the Straits. But there's also Phèdre's unusual superpower of turning pain into pleasure, which seems silly, but is treated with the utmost seriousness. And it definitely is a superpower, not just a sexual preference.

But anyway, weirdness aside, I did enjoy this book, and recommend it to others. I'm just curious to know if anyone else had any of the same issues as me.

I'm not sure if I'm going to continue on to Kushiel's Chosen. The way this book ended struck me as obnoxious, since it was very clear that Phèdre learned absolutely nothing from her journey. For that reason, I'm not too eager to see her jump back into things.

I loved this book. It's been a little while since I read it, but I'd argue Phèdre similarity with Sansa Stark is pretty thin. Even though she's "house-born", Phèdre, unlike Sansa, spent her childhood in servitude (and viewed as an outcast because of her 'flaw'), and has to work her way into the world of aristocracy, and very quickly through shocking experience and the tutelage of Delaunay begins to learn how things actually work in that world. She also has to quickly learn how to think intelligently and independently in order to adapt and survive -- something we don't see in Sansa until very late in SoIaF (and then still fairly minimally). So I think there is a strong arc of growth to Phèdre in this novel as compared to Sansa's arc throughout *all* the SoIaF books so far.

And I'd argue that for Phèdre the world *does* come crashing down for her in (view spoiler)[the betrayal and murder of Delaunay and Alcuin, and Melisande's engineering of her exile (hide spoiler)] -- and it's her rising to meet the challenges that follow that again plays into her character growth.

What really worked for me in this book was the writing and the characters, combined with some clever world-building (the Elua and companions mythos). Phèdre's voice as narrator is just fantastic - those beginning paragraphs immediately sucked me in. And I found the characters, Delaunay especially, to be some of the most well-developed I've ever read in sf or fantasy.

As for her love of Terre d'Ange, I agree - I personally didn't sympathize with her nationalistic feelings. But I could understand those feelings as part of her character. In terms of motivating the plot and her actions the fact that the stakes were tied to people she loved (view spoiler)[ie a large part of it was driven by her wanting justice/revenge for the murder of her mentor and companion pupil (hide spoiler)] made it work for me.

Jason wrote: "And if this whole society really is based on 16th century France, then I guess that aristocracy has another 150 years to go before it all comes crashing down around them."

It's an alternate history, though - inspired by and re-shaped, instead of based upon. The same way the religion in the novel has echoes of all kinds of historical elements mashed up with wild original elements.

The sexual elements, especially when diving into her S&M ability to turn pain into pleasure, I initially thought could only be cheesy, but somehow Carey pulled them off as well.

I also really liked the whole Skaldia episode and it how it contrasted with Terre D'Ange.

I've also read Kushiel's Chosen, but nothing else in the series yet. I didn't like it quite as much - the writing wasn't quite up to the same quality, and some early plot elements annoyed me, but it won me over in its last two thirds. I don't think it resolves any of the particular issues you had with Kushiel's Dart, though.