Jesus books and other things discussion

We're reading Paradiso. Join the discussion and read along!

'In the heaven that receives most of his light have I been, and I have seen things that one who comes down from there cannot remember and cannot utter,
for as it draws near to its desire, our intellect goes so deep that the memory cannot follow it.' (1.4-9)

Dante begins the Paradiso with the admission that what he is about to describe is impossible to put into words, and thus establishes the central paradox of the whole canticle: how can you describe something that is inexplicable, and how can you create a masterpiece from whatever fragmentary knowledge you do possess? More quotes on this theme to follow...

'To signify transhumanizing per verba is impossible; therefore let the comparison suffice for those to whom grace reserves the experience.' (1.70-72)

'The wonder of the sound and the great light kindled a desire in me to know their cause, never before felt with such sharpness.' (1.82-84)

The seeds of scientific inquiry begin with desire...

' "All things whatsoever have order among themselves, and this is a form that makes the universe resemble God." ' (1.103-105)

The Scholastic model of the universe is hierarchical, where all things are arranged in an order that points to the prime mover, namely God.

' "It is true that, just as form often does not
accord with the intention of art, because the
material is dead to respond,
so at times from this course the creature
departs that has the power to swerve, so
driven, in some other direction;
and, just as one can see all fire fall downward
from a cloud, so the creature's first impetus
drives it to earth, if deflected by false pleasure." '
-- 1.127-135

Yet of course the universe is not yet perfect, and so things can move contrary to their intended purpose...

Last week or so I actually got an ebook copy of the whole comedy so I'll be checking it out at the same time as well!!

'O you who in little barks, desirous of listening,
have followed after my ship that sails onward
singing;
turn back to see your shores again, do not put
out on the deep sea, for perhaps, losing me, you
would be lost;'
-- 2.1-9

Let this serve as a warning to those who are merely reading this book for its poetry or as a work of imaginative fiction. Many of the people reviewing this canticle are understandably confused and bored by the Paradiso because they do not heed Dante's warning and become lost, not understanding all the philosophical and theological implications of the work. This is not to be meant to sound elitist. If you do not wish to appreciate the beauty of the ideas Dante presents in this volume, and if you are not willing to follow the text closely, then perhaps it's not for you to read (yet).

After all, if you do not have any understanding of mathematics, you cannot be expected to get very much out of a quantum physics textbook...

'You other few, who stretched out your
necks early on for the bread of the angels,
which one lives on here though never sated by it:
you can well set your course over the salt
deep, staying within my wake before the water
returns level again.'
--2.10-15

'She smiled a little and then: "If," she said,
"the opinion of mortals errs where no key of
sense unlocks,
surely the arrows of wonder ought not to
pierce you now, since you see that reason has
short wings even when following the senses." '
--2.52-57

Our knowledge and rationality have their limits, even as we experience things with our senses...

question
' "But tell me: you souls who are happy here, do you desire a higher place so as to see more and to share more love?" ' (3.64-66)

answer
' "If we desired to be higher up, our desires
would be discordant with the will of him who
assigns us here,
which you will see is contradictory to these
spheres, if to be in charity is here necesse, and
if you consider well its nature.
Indeed, it is constitutive of this blessed esse
to stay within God's will, and thus our very wills
become one,
so that how we are arranged from level to level
through this kingdom, delights the entire king-dom,
as well as the King who enamors us of his well.
And in his will is our peace: he is that sea to
which all moves that his will creates or Nature
makes." '
--3.73-87

Apparently in the Heaven of Dante's imagination, a rigid hierarchy remains in place. Although everyone is in a state of perfection, each is in his/her proper place in the whole scheme, some less glorious than others. But all are happy nonetheless, since this is according to God's plan, and in Heaven all are blessed. C.S. Lewis gets his idea that Heaven is an eternal dance from this medieval concept.

' "To speak thus to your understanding is
necessary, for it takes from sense perception
alone what later it makes worthy of intellection.
For this reason Scripture condescends to
your faculties, attributing feet and hands to God
and meaning something different." ' (4.40-45)

Also called 'accommodation' is the idea that the Bible is written in terms that we can understand, but the reality transcends the limited extent of the literal words. When words like 'king', 'father', 'son', etc. are used to describe God, they are to be understood as rough approximations to what God is actually like. The Bible uses terms and symbols (e.g. bread=body, wine=blood) we are familiar with to explain concepts that are difficult to understand (e.g. the Eucharist). But we shouldn't let the imperfections of human language limit our understanding of what Scripture describes.

' "The other doubt that troubles you has less
venom, because its malice could not draw you
away from me:
that our justice seems unjust to the eyes of
mortals is argument of faith and not of wicked
heresy." ' (4.64-69)

Doubt is a sign of faith, and shows that one is truly thinking through the implications of what he believes.

' "I see well how our intellect is never satisfied
unless illumined by that Truth outside of which
no truth can range." ' (4.124-26)

Reminds me of Plato's allegory of the cave.

' "Thus doubt is born like a burgeoning at the
foot of truth, and it is our nature that drives us
toward the summit from peak to peak." ' (4.130-32)

Again on how doubt leads to truth.

' "The greatest gift that ever in his bountfulness
God gave in creating, and the most conformed
to his goodness, the one that is most prized,
was the freedom of the will, with which the
creatrues with intelligence, all of them and only
they, were and are endowed." ' (5.19-24)

Free will is an important concept in medieval theology, and volumes have been written on it. The basic idea is that free will is a great gift from God, which is why promises are taken extremely seriously, because breaking a promise is akin to throwing away your free will gift and trying to steal it back. (Of course the best way to get the free will back is to fulfill the promise) This canto has examples of individuals who took their vows lightly and the horrible things that happened as a result.

' "Open your mind to what I reveal to you and fix
it there within, for there is no certain knowledge
in having understood without retaining." ' (5.40-42)

The second half of this quote is paraphrased by Machiavelli in his famous letter to Francesco Vettori and is one of the reasons why I wanted to read Dante in the first place. Here Dante establishes the well-known notion of learning as eating, where you have to retain knowledge to understand it, just as you have to retain food though digestion to get nourishment.

' "No punishment, therefore, if measured by
the natures that was assumed, ever took its toll
so justly as did the Cross,
and in the same way none was ever so
unjust, considering the Person who suffered, in
whom that nature had been assumed." ' (7.40-45)

Christ's sacrifice was both just and unjust. It was just because it so completely satisfied the penalty of our sin, but unjust because He was completely blameless and yet had to die. But the beauty of it is that He was freely willing to undergo this injustice to Himself so that we would be counted as just to God.

Robsteady wrote: "Last week or so I actually got an ebook copy of the whole comedy so I'll be checking it out at the same time as well!!"

sweeet!!!

Dan wrote: "' "Open your mind to what I reveal to you and fix
it there within, for there is no certain knowledge
in having understood without retaining." ' (5.40-42)

The second half of this quote is paraphra..."

Amen good stuff Dan

One stanza I enjoyed.. well probably this whole page but
here it is:

"So that as we are station above station
throughout this realm, to all his will out will
and his will is our peace, this is the sea
to which is moving onward whatsoever
It doth create, and all that nature makes."


This reminds my of Phil 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The sea of course pointing to Gods sovereignty and one could say its all him but the mystery of the imperative is our will. This is of course the antimony that we will never figure out. How much God and how much of us?

I love the poetry here because it reminds us that the important part is God will do what he said and we will arrive at port as the captain doth schedule YARRR!!

(there is of course the obvious pirate references in here I enjoy as well :DD ) LOL

Justin wrote: "One stanza I enjoyed.. well probably this whole page but
here it is:

"So that as we are station above station
throughout this realm, to all his will out will
and his will is our peace, this is t..."

What is the line reference for that quote?

A little below 80

Justin wrote: "A little below 80"

Which canto?

III