Pulp Fiction discussion

Reading Elmore Leonard's Swag now. So far it's probably the most consistently accomplished of the few titles I've read by him (although Freaky Deaky has some great moments)

Reading The Dain Curse now. I see why it's considered his weakest work, but it's Hammett, so there's just enough to keep going.

Currently plowing my way, bit by bit, through The Black Lizard Big Book of Black Mask Stories. Great stuff!

I also highly recommend The Second Girl by Frank Marr. I'm in the middle of that and it's a page-turner.

Another Port novel to kick off my summer.

I can confirm on completion that the Dain Curse is just shy of being awful. Reading Lawrence Block's Sinner Man atm.

Agent 87 and the Black Train

I really enjoyed the Agent Carter TV show and wanted something in that vein. I did a little research and stumbled upon this gem. I highly recommend it. It's a fast globe trotting adventure with a splash of horror. Agent 87 is a master of disguise during WWII and would fit right in with the likes of The Phantom, The Shadow, and Indiana Jones (especially with her sidekicks). It even has a few black and white illustrations similar to those old pulp comics in the 30s, which it is clearly homaging. In a nutshell: a fun pulp action read.

finished Silver Bullets and The Acid Test, both of which fall under narco-lit. The stories themselves are really, really good but Mendoza's writing style takes a lot of getting used to so I had to read very slowly.

I have a hard time motivating myself for reading right now. I'm almost through Outer Dark with Everything That Rises Must Converge: Stories planned to start on the side. But it just isn't working at all.

Finished Elmore Leonard's Stick, which is the sequel to Swag. I found the earlier book a little darker and generally better. Blame it on the 80's?

I started Savages by Don Winslow. It's pretty unusual so far.

Just finished - true crime novel. Great read!

Currently reading Dirty Snow

Paul wrote: "Currently reading Dirty Snow"

Well, I'd be interested to know your opinion, Paul.

The only Simenon I've ever read is Maigret's failure, mostly because I thought the cover was so chilling as a kid:

https://www.amazon.com/Maigrets-Failu...

The only thing I remember about it now is that he orders spaghetti bolognese for lunch.

Dirty Snow is one of the best accounts ever of what military occupation means to a city's populace, in this case to a teenager who witnesses what it has meant to his own family. On other occasions, Frank might have courted the neighbor-girl and found a role model in her father. Instead he tries to establish his manhood in the only ways he can, and winds up emulating the occupiers. Simenon possibly thought of occupying Germany. Today the novel could be set in middle east cities, esp. Baghdad in 2004 (and now). Depicting the universality of human, and nation-state, degenerative behavior is why Simenon was a genius.

Christopher wrote: "Paul wrote: "Currently reading Dirty Snow"

Well, I'd be interested to know your opinion, Paul.

The only Simenon I've ever read is Maigret's failure, mostl..."

Will do Chris. Always informed and interesting comments Jay.

Also halfway through God's Pocket , which i'm really enjoying. Reminds me a little of 'The Friends of Eddie Coyle' by George V. Higgins.

Christopher wrote: "Paul wrote: "Currently reading Dirty Snow"

Well, I'd be interested to know your opinion, Paul.

The only Simenon I've ever read is Maigret's failure, mostl..."

Hi Christopher. My review for 'Dirty Snow' is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Speaking of Simenon, I've just finished The Executioner Weeps by a very good friend of his, Frédéric Dard. He writes along the lines of Simenons romans durs, but not quite the same.

I have just finished "The Glass Key" by Dashiell Hammett, and I wonder what took me so long to add it to my Hall of Fame list of classic noir. (I believe I read it in a poor translation when I was still in school and was too green to appreciate the political commentary and the sexual innuendos).

Some reads...

A Hell of a Woman- definitely flawed but holds interest for Thompson fans.

The Jugger (Stark)- a much more restricted plot than the 2 preceding Stark titles, but more perfectly realized.

Just started the next Stark conveniently titled The Seventh. How did Westlake pump these gems out so steadily?

Damnotion wrote: "Some reads...

A Hell of a Woman- definitely flawed but holds interest for Thompson fans.

The Jugger (Stark)- a much more restricted plot than the 2 preceding Stark titles, but more perfectly rea..."

Many writers are prolific, but Westlake was one of the few whose output was consistently of a high standard. I love his Parker novels and i've enjoyed a number of Westlake's stand-alone novels. A very original talent.

One thing I've noticed is that most everyone describes the Parker books as being completely humorless. I don't know what they're reading, but I find some grim humor in them- in some of the characterizations and occasionally in Parker's pithy dialogue.

Here is a sample of some "jokes" from the Parker novels:

Next he got out and handed around sets of rubber gloves, the kind women use when they wash dishes. These were pale blue, which were less bright in the dark than either the yellow or the pink that were the only other choices. It was advertised that with these gloves on you could pick up a dime. You could also hold a gun and pick up four hundred thousand dollars.

Amtrak was new, but the station at Rhinecliff was old, one end of it no longer in use, rusted remains of steel walkways and stairs looming upward against the sky like the ruins of an earlier civilization, which is what they were.

Major Indindu said, “If we succeed in restoring the stolen assets, we will allow Colonel Lubudi to announce his retirement during his stay in New York. A new election will be held in Dhaba, and after I am elected, the Colonel will be free either to return or to stay in New York.”
Parker said, “What if you're not elected?”
“I will be.”

(It's a dry sort of humor. Btw, it took quite a while to find even three jokes among my highlights. Just sayin'.)

Just a random example of what I'm thinking of. The current one I'm reading (The 7th) includes a very short character with a tall pompadour who is described as looking "like something that had been shrunk and preserved in the 19th Century". That's amusing to me

The KGB guy in The Mourner almost seems like a (not quite successful) satire of the The Maltese Falcon's Fat Man.

Christopher wrote: "Here is a sample of some "jokes" from the Parker novels:

Next he got out and handed around sets of rubber gloves, the kind women use when they wash dishes. These were pale blue, which were less br..."

Good examples, but also proof that one doesn't read "tough-guy" fiction solely FOR the wit, but it can be a stress-reliever. In the movie CASABLANCA, if I recall correctly, one character asks Rick (Humphrey Bogart) why he moved to the eponymous city, and Rick replies: "For the waters."
Response (roughly): "But we're in the desert, nowhere near water."
Rick: "I was misinformed."

On a whim, I started re-reading Plunder Squad
(Kindle edition). It follows Slayground, but is really a sequel to The Sour Lemon Score, and brings back a character from The Green Eagle Score.

I don't know how long ago I read it- three or four years ago- but I had forgotten most of it.

One thing about Parkers that I will never complain about- they are quick. I am already on part three. (61 %)

PS- I don't know if this is a joke, or just a wry comment. Anyway, I clipped it:

“I drink when I’m not working,” Ducasse said. “Mind if I go ahead?”

“Fine.”

Ducasse made himself a gin and tonic without ice. He held the glass up, grinning at it as though it were a foolishness he’d somehow become saddled with, and said, “You know how I got onto this stuff?”

The furniture tended to white imitation Italian Provincial. Parker sat in a chair with a comfortable back and uncomfortable arms and said, “No, I don’t.”

“Every time I’m in a hotel,” Ducasse said, “sooner or later I’m in a conversation I don’t want overheard. And that’s when the ice runs out. In a motel, you just take the bucket and walk down to the machine, but in a place like this you’ve got to call room service. It takes half an hour, and in comes a guy looks invariably like an undercover narcotics man. And everybody sits around not talking and not wanting their face seen. So I trained myself to drink this sh*t without ice.”

He took a swig and made a face. “It’s like drinking iodine.”

because it's high summer, and because I have just re-watched the movie version, I decided to try the Dave Bary source for "Big Trouble" - a Florida caper about stupidity, incompetence, corruption and lust.

goof stuff

Damnotion wrote: "One thing I've noticed is that most everyone describes the Parker books as being completely humorless. I don't know what they're reading, but I find some grim humor in them- in some of the characte..."

Not everyone because the last 9 years since i became Parker,Stark fan, i truly love the cold,mean, emotionless stories but i was always surprised by some of the dialouge, characters showing signz of humor.

Not really surprising that the master of comic crime Donald E. Westlake would bleed into his Stark books. For me the rare dry humor of a Parker book was clear because it was a big contrast to being inside the cold world, thought of Parker.

I started reading The Millon Dollar Wound (Heller book 3) by Max Allan Collins.
I finished Heller 2, Quarry book 4, 5 in the last weeks. For some reason Collins became my most read author this year.

I enjoyed Quarry books because the early 70s one are like a son of Parker but Hitman, not as great noir books, great prose as Stark but reading the brilliant Heller books made me rate Collins much higher. His writing is so much better in Heller, than in new or old Quarry. He is becoming a Stark/Westlake kind of new fav hardboiled, noir writer.

If Heller books keep being this great PI series, Matt Scudder might lose his place as alltime fav PI book series.

Finally finished Mcarthy's Outer Dark. Could be I just read the "wrong" books of his. Could be he's just not for me. I don't know yet. Longer review here.

Ah well, time to catch up on some of those group reads. Probably gonna start with LA Confidential.

Mohammed wrote: "I started reading The Millon Dollar Wound (Heller book 3) by Max Allan Collins.
I finished Heller 2, Quarry book 4, 5 in the last weeks. For some reason Collins became my most read author this year..."

I've read several books by Collins and the thing that strikes me about his writing style is that he is clearly a big fan of many of the iconic hard-boiled writers; Hammett, Chandler, etc, but imo he never comes close to matching the original he's trying to emulate. But if you enjoy his writing, more power to you.

Paul wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "I started reading The Millon Dollar Wound (Heller book 3) by Max Allan Collins.
I finished Heller 2, Quarry book 4, 5 in the last weeks. For some reason Collins became my most read..."

Well i would agree and disagree because just because you are not perfect harboiled PI great like Hammett doesnt mean you cant write great PI stories. Also Chandler is semi overrated to me because i like his prose but his Marlowe series was imo lesser than Ross Macdonald's Lew Archer that is similar type of PI story.

Hammett is alltime fav author to me but Collins other than writing PI hero, Heller is award winning series because of the quality but its also a fresh mix of genres, new kind of PI story. The other PI greats didnt write a great historical novel at the same time as writing PI story like Nate Heller books.

The book im reading starts in the horrific pacific islands warfare between Japan & USA. Very indebt writing about the hopeless jungle war for soldiers on both sides. Thats more military history non-fiction than traditional PI copy of Hammett etc

Finally got around to reading Postman rings - long overdue. What a taught little gem - loved it. I'm thinking that was only my 2nd Cain novel & remember being disappointed by Mildred Pierce. This is turning out to be my summer of pulpy reads...

Tanya wrote: "Finally got around to reading Postman rings - long overdue. What a taught little gem - loved it. I'm thinking that was only my 2nd Cain novel & remember being disappointed by Mildred Pierce. This i..."

Yes Tanya, i read Mildred P earlier this year and, having seen the movie, was somewhat mystified by the book.

Tanya wrote: "Finally got around to reading Postman rings - long overdue. What a taught little gem - loved it. I'm thinking that was only my 2nd Cain novel & remember being disappointed by Mildred Pierce. This i..."

Double Indemnity is almost great as Postman rings, Cain is the master of these kind of noir novel. I havent read Mildred Pierce yet but i have seen the mini series, it was nothing at all like his other novels, film noir based on James M Cain novels.

I just read Postman a little while ago. Just a great, tight story. I watched the movie version with Jack Nicholson straight after, remembering it as a good flick, but was disappointed in comparison to the book.

I just love that none of the characters in Postman have any real redeeming characteristics about them. They're all bad in their own way. I guess that's what all good Noir stories should be.

Just about finishing Double Indemnity now which I am also enjoying.

This is my first time reading Cain's books - wish I'd read them ages ago......... Same with Hammet.

Its never too late to read a master like that. Its so nice seeing everyone reading Cain right now.

I need to buy more of his books. I truly miss his characters that lack redeeming qualities. He is to me a leaner, more stylised Jim Thompson type noir.

Mohammed wrote: "Its never too late to read a master like that. Its so nice seeing everyone reading Cain right now.

I need to buy more of his books. I truly miss his characters that lack redeeming qualities. He is..."

I absolutely love that the characters in his books are just.... assholes.

More contemporary novels try to find a little hook of sympathy in a bad character to make us like them. I just think, why?

A plot summary of Mildred Pierce would have yielded zero interest to me. Yet it's still something of a page-turner despite the apparent mundaneness of it all, which is a testament to Cain's skill. Postman and Double are by far his best, though. I tried reading a couple others and just couldn't muster enthusiasm (The Cocktail Waitress was ok)...Apparently he hated being classed as hard-boiled or noir.

Reading The Lady in the Lake atm.

The plot summary of Double Indemnity involves insurance salesmen arguing over whether their insurance company will have to pay out or not. But Cain, in the writing of it, makes it drip with fear and paranoia.

I've read two of his books now. I will now plough through all of his books. I rejected reading his books before, in a very snobby fashion, as I thought that it would be poorly written.

All modern day thriller writers could learn a thing or six from Cain. The first and most important being - you don't need me as the reader to feel sympathy for any of your characters. They can all be real scumbags. In fact, that makes it all the more fascinating.

Shane wrote: "The plot summary of Double Indemnity involves insurance salesmen arguing over whether their insurance company will have to pay out or not. But Cain, in the writing of it, makes it drip with fear an..."

When it comes to Cain, I think Postman and Double Indemnity are all anyone "must" read (and of course, nobody must read anything). I also read Mildred Pierce, mainly because it was the third in "Three by Cain," an omnibus from c. 1965.

On the other hand, the *other* Three by Cain, I've only read Serenade, and it was OK. It was no Postman.

Three by Cain: Serenade/Love's Lovely Counterfeit/The Butterfly

Three Complete Novels: The Postman Always Rings Twice/Mildred Pierce/Double Indemnity

(1969 it says here. Foreword by Tom Wolfe)

Three others by Cain, in case anyone is interested:

Three of a Kind: Career In C Major, The Embezzler, and Double Indemnity

Sorry, can't give an opinion--found it at a library sale and picked it up, but haven't read any of it yet

My library *used* to have an omnibus called Hard Cain-I suspect it's gone now.

Anyway, I picked up The Root of His Evil and Sinful Woman when they were $.99 each for Kindle.

So, to take back what I said before, there is more Cain on TBR mountain.

JuniperGreen wrote: "Shane wrote: "All modern day thriller writers could learn a thing or six from Cain. The first and most important being - you don't need me as the reader to feel sympathy for any of your characters...."

We are not the regular crime reading fanbase, most of us here are fans of criminal noir books. Parkers, Quarrys, Stark,Thompson, Cain of the world.

A cop or a PI hero with a golden heart or many good qualities bore me if its not a great detective work novel or great dialogues or complex story. My alltime fav PI hero isnt Marlowe, Spade or Archer or Scudder or Nate Heller. Its the Continental Op because although he works like a cop, realistic PI work, he is almost as amoral as the gangster, criminals he is hired to chase.

I loved it to bits when he started a war between different gangs in Red Harvest because if it got bloody, they killed each other his job would easier to finish :)

Also I think many of today's writers - especially the newer independent writers - definitely write to a required market. There are certain things that simply must be included; the hero must be sympathetic to the reader, the villain should also have some sympathetic traits. Be very careful of certain racial profiling and never ever be cruel to animals.

I'm not sure, but I think Cain would just think "Does the MC run over a dog and kill it?" Puffs on pipe. "Hell, yeah, he does."

Writers from the past were braver in what they wrote I think.

Currently reading Leadfoot by Eric Beetner.

I liked the first one, Rumrunners, but I can already tell with this one I will like it more. I think the 70s setting is helping but having a mafia war in the middle of the story certainly helps. It kind of reminds me of season 2 of Fargo.

JuniperGreen wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "We are not the regular crime reading fanbase, most of us here are fans of criminal noir books. Parkers, Quarrys, Stark,Thompson, Cain of the world."

I don't see how your answer re..."

What i mean is the general crime reading audience is a big group of readers who read many kind of different subgenres. You cant say they dont like criminals, killers. There are Dexter type books,

Noir crime even today as modern subgenre has many unredeemable characters. There are many books like that but it is not big subgenre like in days of Cain, Thompson, Stark etc

Some of the toughness or nasty character traits I've read in older books were attitudes that were taken for granted years ago & still are in some places. In the First World, we have the resources to develop some ideals that no one ever thought of even 50 years ago. It's been a while since I read The Complete Slayers: Fast One and the Complete Short Stories of Paul Cain, so I can't think of an example from his writing offhand, but I don't think it was limited to drinking, smoking, or how women were treated, the things people normally think of.

regarding amoral characters as heroes, I just finished a modern book, meaning they are quite popular. It's called "The Butcher's Boy" by Thomas Perry (I think) and it is mainly about a professional hitman, with alternate chapters from a Justice Department investigator. I would call it more in the thriller genre than noir, but it did remind me of Parker.

Algernon wrote: "regarding amoral characters as heroes, I just finished a modern book, meaning they are quite popular. It's called "The Butcher's Boy" by Thomas Perry (I think) and it is mainly about a professional..."

I just finished the 3d Butcher's Boy novel by Perry not long ago. Excellent. Perry is a very good author & I've read most of his books. My favorite book by him was the first I read, Metzger's Dog. If you liked the BB book, I think you'll love it.