The Sword and Laser discussion

Is it just me, or is there a disconnect between the first Toymaker chapter and the second? It seems odd to me that the POV in the first one is the same as the POV in the second. The first seems so...incapable, nothing like the second.

Also, J just finished the second Toymaker chapter, but are these chapters in the same timeframe as the Liz chapters? I thought Blair was dead..

It took me some time, but I figured it out. The first Toymaker chapter and the second are two different people, or, rather, the Toymaker is observing the "failure" in the first chapter and in the second chapter is himself. That's been a persistent issue with the writing for me, and is just an issue with second person in general, if the writing isn't supremely tight the reader can lose the thread if they stop focusing intently on the writing.

Which is fine, but Rule 34 doesn't strike me as a book I should be sitting around and devoting as much attention to detail to as something like Tolstoy.

I am 48% through and the toymaker chapters start to make a lot more sense. I don't want to put out any spoilers, but it becomes much clearer around 40-45%

Ok I'll hang in there...

Well, I just finished. Even though now I can see the whole picture, I'm not sure what to make of the Toymaker as a character.

I think I'd need a whole book devoted to him...and the issues he faces on a daily basis...to really get him. But I'm not that interested.

I am only about %40 in but the Toymaker seems to have split personalities to me, or maybe he is bipolar. I got the impression that his condition is caused by some sort of chip in his head.

Joshua, (view spoiler)[ there is a chip in his head but it is not the cause of his psychosis (hide spoiler)] Overall I think the character is very interesting but being in his head is weird and slightly creepy.

Lately I've found myself thinking 'I am surrounded by ants' when frustrated in work.
Not good.

Kate wrote: "Lately I've found myself thinking 'I am surrounded by ants' when frustrated in work.
Not good."

As long as you don't start muttering about the shape-shifting lizard people as well, you're probably safe.

Kate wrote: "Lately I've found myself thinking 'I am surrounded by ants' when frustrated in work.
Not good."

Thankfully that hasn't happened yet. I still think of them as idiot monkeys...

My impression is that the first Toymaker chapter does not include any characters that appear later in the book, although one is referenced later as the Operation's former manager, who was an old-school mafia type.

It's just there to set the scene, so the readers understand what the Operation does, and about fabbers and feed stock and just what kind of "toys" they're making.

The Toymaker in later chapters, "John Christie"/"Peter Manuel", doesn't appear in that chapter.

I believe the toy maker is the emergent AI looking through the human chip so it is a dual character but when the human person dies it births the AI as something self aware....or I drank to much when I read that part.

Kris wrote: "I believe the toy maker is the emergent AI looking through the human chip so it is a dual character but when the human person dies it births the AI as something self aware....or I drank to much whe..."

I sorta think along these lines, but expand it a bit. To quote the book location 4385 on kindle (view spoiler)[ one of the standard features of general cognitive engines is that they're all hard-wired for mirrored self-misidentification. That is, they all project the seat of their identity onto you, (hide spoiler)]

What I take this to mean (and incidentally what I think the author intends for us to take as a meaning) is that (view spoiler)[when applying the mirrored self-misidentification in regards to ATHENA, you realize that the entire book is just a log of ATHENA's actions in one city in one block of time. Everything in this book is from the perspective of ATHENA, not the characters at all, but a 2nd person viewpoint of the self aware program projecting it's identity onto the various characters it is manipulating to make a more moralizing populace. (hide spoiler)]

This is where I think Charles Stross was brilliant in using the 2nd person viewpoint, actually making it the only valid way to tell the story (and I love the story, I love the meta-story of the story).

Gregg wrote: "Kris wrote: "I believe the toy maker is the emergent AI looking through the human chip so it is a dual character but when the human person dies it births the AI as something self aware....or I dran..."

Great point Gregg and that just adds to the depth of the book making it more enjoyable...