Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Linda wrote: "My last hijacking of this thread:

This week-end's art show will go splendidly, I'm sure. It's an open studio tour, so it's right here at my house. No space limitations, no other artists encroach..."

I've always wanted to do an open studio! I used to live in an artsy-fartsy beach town where two neighbors (a ceramicist & a painter) had open studios within a stone's throw from me.

I have the perfect place for it now, but the "art trail" artists in Northern Sonoma county are much further apart. Plus, I've been neglecting my painting in favor of my writing, so...

Anyway, best wishes on meeting some interesting folks and selling some of your beautiful jewelery! (assuming you're still doing that!)

I don't think that self-published ebooks have a bad reputation, but I do think that the industry's reputation is a bit tarnished. 4 and 5 star reviews are viewed with extreme skepticism, and certain platforms do nothing to prevent fake reviews.

Most skilled professions require a learning process, during which the person must first serve as a helper and then an apprentice. Only when they have learned the required skills and demonstrated their ability to apply them proficiently are they permitted to claim the title of their chosen profession: carpenter, electrician, teacher, lawyer, police officer, etc.

Unfortunately, no such process is required of a writer. Today, anyone with access to a personal computer and the internet may technically claim the title of published author. It doesn't matter that many self-proclaimed writers lack the technical knowledge and story telling skills to produce a quality piece of work.

Some independent and self-published authors like to point out that there have been some poorly written traditionally published books. There have been. However, they make up a tiny fraction of a percentage of the total. The exact opposite appears to be true of independently and self-published books.

Until all, or at least the vast majority, of independently and self-published authors are willing to expend the time, effort, and a little money in learning technical writing and narration skills and then seek and obtain professional editing services, I believe that the stigma often applied to independently and self-published books will not go away, even though there are undoubtably many quite talented authors among them.

Better watch yourselves people. They booted Linda for her thoughtful commentary.
*sarcasm font

Derrolyn wrote: "Better watch yourselves people. They booted Linda for her thoughtful commentary.
*sarcasm font"

Derrolyn,

Who are "They" and precisely what in Linda's "thoughtful commentary" was cited as the reason for her being "booted"? This, like most threads, is rife with different opinions. Surely, conflicting observations would not provide a valid reason for a person's banishment from a discussion.

I'm a SPA, and until recently ... a hypocrite. I would profess the SPA, while keeping my own reading choices to traditionally published works. A few months ago, I signed up for one of those services that send links to free books on Kindle, Kobo and Nook. Most of these books are SPA. I read constantly, 1-3 books at a time, most novels taking me a couple days. I can say whole heartedly, there are some fantastic self-published and indie works out there. Now, I must point out that my tastes and tolerances may differ from others. I read for the story, the characters and the plot. Sure, I spot the editing, spelling and grammar errors ... but if the story is engaging and the writing isn't to distracting, I'll keep going. I'm not afraid to put a book down after the first chapter. If it doesn't grab me, I stop. Many of the SPAs I've read recently, in my option, were better then the huge commercial success's offered this year.

I think there are a lot of talented SPAs, some as talented, or more so, than TPAs. Today, being a TPA doesn't automatically denote talent. It often means the work is sellable in a mass market. Just because an SPA's work is not mass market material doesn't mean it is not good. Not everyone likes reading classic literature, but that doesn't decrease its value.

Self publishing is a way of life now, and will be as long as the internet exists. Anyone who posts written words, be it on Amazon, Smashwords, netzines, blogs, facebook, twitter, etc. contributes to the reputation of SPAs.

However, as an SPA, I am not responsible for what others publish or post. I am only responsible for my own work. And I will strive to publish the best work I possibly can. Will it be perfect? No. Will it improve with practice? Yes. Will I continue to learn my trade for as long as I write? Most definitely. Writing isn't just about putting words on a page. It is also about learning how to spell, how to use grammar, and how to edit.

I think that's what we should ask of SPAs, nothing more and nothing less.

However, as an SPA, I am not responsible for what others publish or post. I am only responsible for my own work. And I will strive to publish the best work I possibly can. Will it be perfect? No. Will it improve with practice? Yes. Will I continue to learn my trade for as long as I write? Most definitely. Writing isn't just about putting words on a page. It is also about learning how to spell, how to use grammar, and how to edit.

I am in total agreement with this but will add --
If we are in the percentage of SPAs who hone our craft we have a responsibility to the whole of this self-publishing phenomena. It's our task to drive home why sub-standard writing drives down the reputation of all SPAs. We need to stand-in, act as "grandparents", passing on valuable knowledge and wisdom we've learned by slogging through "the writing life" and encountering the hard knocks. I have no problem citing sub-standard writing. I've paid my dues. In all of life, you always get a report card. Whether it be a grade in an educational environment, a performance review from a supervisor or review and star allocation from a reader. Supposedly, even after death there is a "report/review". Poor writing is poor writing (regardless of story). Telling someone who writes poorly that it's okay contributes to the decline of all standards. If poor writing becomes the "acceptable standard" via support through the Internet then -- we're doomed in the same sense that we lament about the decline and lack of manners in society today.

For an interesting read on why wanna-bes think their work is beyond reproach take a look at The Snowflake Effect: How the Self-Esteem Movement Ruined a Generation. Trey Wills is really on to something.

"Writing isn't just about putting words on a page. It is also about learning how to spell, how to use grammar, and how to edit."

Perhaps the first thing we need to start telling the SPAs is that getting the grammar and spelling right are as relevant to writing good fiction as adding and subtracting correctly are to performing calculus.

Yes, you need to know proper grammar and spelling to write fiction, but that knowledge has nothing to do with the craft of writing. Clarity. Tension. Emotion. Plot. Character arc. It seems to me that SPAs need a lot more help with those things than with grammer and punctuation.

Brian wrote: ""Writing isn't just about putting words on a page. It is also about learning how to spell, how to use grammar, and how to edit."

Perhaps the first thing we need to start telling the SPAs is that g..."

Yes, you need to know proper grammar and spelling to write fiction, but that knowledge has nothing to do with the craft of writing. Clarity. Tension. Emotion. Plot. Character arc. It seems to me that SPAs need a lot more help with those things than with grammer and punctuation.

Amen to that!

G.T. wrote: "Brian wrote: ""Writing isn't just about putting words on a page. It is also about learning how to spell, how to use grammar, and how to edit."

Perhaps the first thing we need to start telling the ..."

What really bothers me is the editors thread on this board. There are so many people advertising their services to SPAs. For $500 to $600 they'll clean up your manuscript by correcting your grammar and punctuation and get rid of unnecessary words. Basically, they'll make your unreadable dreck into slightly more understandable dreck.

It seems to me that freelance editors haven't adapted to the new SPA reality. They're not dealing with professionals who only need a clean up, and few SPAs are going to be able to afford a developmental edit and a copy edit.

Am I crazy, or do we need a new service? Kind of a, "Improve my writing to a level where I don't embarrass myself" level of edit?

Shari wrote: "I agree with everything that has been said about authors honing their craft, getting better with time, etc., but I think there's something bigger at work here. I see it, but I have no idea what to ..."

I wouldn't worry about it. People are fickle. If the author has no talent, the stories will all begin to sound the same and the public will move on to the next freak show. This author will then either have to learn her craft or publish books with no reading audience.

Because you're writing for writing's sake, and aren't willing to demean it or yourself?

Don't ever stop, lol. Our sense of outrage is something precious and necessary.

Brian wrote: "G.T. wrote: "Brian wrote: ""Writing isn't just about putting words on a page. It is also about learning how to spell, how to use grammar, and how to edit."

Perhaps the first thing we need to start..."

Good points, Brian.

The job of a professional copy editor (emphasis on the word professional) is to discover the occasional technical writing error and correct it. It is not their job to attempt to salvage a manuscript rife with grammatical, spelling, punctuation, and syntax mistakes.

It is the job of a professional conceptual editor to point out areas in which the intensitiy, humor, sensitivity, sadness, etc. of a particular scene may be improved upon with more, fewer, or different words or perhaps scrapped althogether. The author may heed, disregard, or arrive at a compromise regarding any such suggestions and advice.

It is the job of the author to have already learned basic technical writing and narration skills before attempting to produce a completed manuscript and submit it for editing. There are an abundance of books and free or low cost seminars and courses available to help the author do just that.

We must learn something before we can do anything.

Brian wrote: "...Yes, you need to know proper grammar and spelling to write fiction, but that knowledge has nothing to do with the craft of writing. Clarity. Tension. Emotion. Plot. Character arc. It seems to me that SPAs need a lot more help with those things than with grammer and punctuation"

Yes, I agree, at least as much help, if not more.

Brian wrote: "...Am I crazy, or do we need a new service? Kind of a, "Improve my writing to a level where I don't embarrass myself" level of edit?"

It's called creative writing and English classes. Good writing does require talent, but talent can be achievied through study and practice. There are sites where you can post your work and get feedback before publishing it.

But people are impatient. They don't take the time to learn the fundamentals and then master the story-telling before they put it out for the whole world to see.

And I was almost one of them. I wanted to get my first book out there. If I had published when I thought it was ready, it would have been a disaster.

I was lucky. I had good friends who gave me honest feedback. I got feedback from online critiquing sites. I studied and I edited and I worked hard for a long time.

I'm not saying my books are perfect or fantastic or that I'm a talented writer. I think they're decent. I think I did a fair job. I also know I'll improve as I continue to write. If people enjoy the story and are not distracted by misspellings and bad grammar, then I think I did good.

As a writer, I owe my readers a good experience. As a reader, I expect the same.

Shari wrote: "...Ideas, anyone? I'm freaking bewildered. Tell me again why I fret over every word?"

Because you care about the quality of your work. Those who churn out words to make a buck care nothing about quality and never will. If you confront them, they'll shrug and show you their bank account.

It will do no good to have gatekeepers because trash that sells is still trash, but the gatekeepers will let it through because it makes money. It's about the bottom line.

But Shari, you do care and you should continue to fret over every word. We need more fretters and fewer players.

Roger wrote: "But Shari, you do care and you should continue to fret over every word. We need more fretters and fewer players. ..."

Agree 100%. I started my second novel in March. Here it is nearly the end of November and I'm still editing and rewriting. I can't produce a book any faster and have it worth publishing.

Indie books give the opportunity for people to read something a bit different from main stream published books. It is always hard work to get the book right. I have both indie books and a book published by a small publisher. Distance from writing helps editing: 3 months on the manuscript looks like someone else wrote it!
Good luck to anyone editing right now.

Roger wrote: "Shari wrote: "...Ideas, anyone? I'm freaking bewildered. Tell me again why I fret over every word?"

Because you care about the quality of your work. Those who churn out words to make a buck care ..."

What you've described, Roger, is exactly what's wrong with publishing, period. Any publishing. Commercial publishers are just that — commercial. They publish what will sell, and if tripe sells, then by all the gods tripe is what will get the contract.

It's just business . . .

Jim wrote: "Brian wrote: "G.T. wrote: "Brian wrote: ""Writing isn't just about putting words on a page. It is also about learning how to spell, how to use grammar, and how to edit."

Perhaps the first thing we..."

Jim,

Perhaps Joe Hill is a good example to follow. He purposely didn't use his father's name and suffered years of rejections before being published. Each rejection taught him to get that much better.

So, in an ideal world, that's what we all do - get rejected enough times that we finally understand what is required.

Note that a couple of courses, or a lifetime of learning at the feet of Stephen King, aren't enough to teach most what they need to know.

In the real world, we are impatient, and there's very little way for us to figure out if a) we're delusional or b) we really have produced something that readers will enjoy.

Basically, using a professional model to provide editing to SPAs just seems broken to me.

Maybe some SPAs reading this can and do use that model. For me, I see a need for something different.

Thanks.

Brian

Roger wrote: "Brian wrote: "...Yes, you need to know proper grammar and spelling to write fiction, but that knowledge has nothing to do with the craft of writing. Clarity. Tension. Emotion. Plot. Character arc. ..."

Roger,

I had a similar experience.

I though my MS was ready! I'd send it to an editor, make a couple of changes based on her "suggestions," and hit publish.

Wrong!

A year later, I'm still in the middle of a major rewrite. I'm so, so thankful that I didn't put the crap that was my first manuscript out into the world.

Here's the thing, though: That manuscript was the result of two years of work, during which I'd went to writing groups and gotten lots of feedback online and from beta readers. I had a class in college, and, over the course of a decade, read dozens of books on craft.

None of that helped nearly as much as a good editor telling me, "Hey, you're a complete, talentless idiot!" Okay, she didn't say that, exactly, but that's sure what it felt like.

I will say that I like what I'm producing now a lot better.

Once I finish my current draft, I'm going to go through another round of editing. That'll put the total cost of my book, including cover, well over $1500. I'm a well-compensated professional engineer, but that amount is still painful. I'd guess that a lot of SPAs don't have those kind of funds available at all.

I'm just saying that it seems like there would be a market for freelance editors who take the needs of SPAs into account instead of assuming they're dealing with pros...

Thanks.

Brian

Shari wrote: "...on Amazon...Fifty-eight pages for $6.99 AND PEOPLE ARE BUYING IT!! It's in quadruple digits too...."

How do you get these sales figures from Amazon? The author gets them. How does the public get them?

Shari wrote: "its ranking on Amazon are there for everyone..."

So how do you extrapolate from "#3 in cooking / vegetarian / lentils" to "1000+ copies sold" ? (Or something similar.)

Jay wrote: "Shari wrote: "its ranking on Amazon are there for everyone..."

So how do you extrapolate from "#3 in cooking / vegetarian / lentils" to "1000+ copies sold" ? (Or something similar.)"

You can't I got into the top ten for Asian American literature with one sale. The only way to know is to know what your sales give you a rank on, but factor in that newer books with the same number of sales will push you down the list. In other words its guesswork in a hall of mirrors.

"Educated guess." Okay.

Brian wrote: "...I'd guess that a lot of SPAs don't have those kind of funds available at all...."

Unfortunately, that's true. All the more reason for SPAs to learn how to do it so it is, maybe not professional, at least acceptable.

I'd love to be able to pay for professional covers. I'd like to have a professional editor give me an idea of what can be done to improve the work. Unless my books go flying off the virtual shelves, that's not going to happen any time soon.

I would definitely recommend using these services at least once if you can afford it, but do it for the educational experience. Don't rely on someone else to make you look good all the time. Never assume you know all there is to know about writing and publishing. There is always something more to learn.

Jay wrote: "Shari wrote: "its ranking on Amazon are there for everyone..."

So how do you extrapolate from "#3 in cooking / vegetarian / lentils" to "1000+ copies sold" ? (Or something similar.)"

Jay,

Perhaps you're misinterpreting Shari's post. I think that you think "quadruple digits" means that the book sold 1,000+ copies. I believe that, when Shari used "quadruple digits," she meant something on the order of "book is #1234 in (category)," information that is publically displayed for all books.

Most self published books in my genre of epic fantasy are something like #123,456 in epic fantasy, so anything in "quadruple digits" instead of "six digits" would be considered to be selling well.

Roger wrote: "Brian wrote: "...I'd guess that a lot of SPAs don't have those kind of funds available at all...."

Unfortunately, that's true. All the more reason for SPAs to learn how to do it so it is, maybe ..."

Roger,

I don't know that I agree with your advice. While I understand the spirit of "do as much myself as possible," advising SPAs not to "depend on others" doesn't make sense to me. Don't even the best traditionally published authors rely on editors to make the book better?

If we want SPAs to be professional, the advice has to be, "hire a good editor."

I went on to say that I do recommend using these services if the writer can afford them. If not, then we have to learn them and do as well as we can.

I meant to say that even if you can afford an editor, learn how to be a better writer from what the editor tells you and don't just rely on the editor to make your work readable.

I do everything myself. I don't like the idea of someone I don't know telling me what I should change in my book.

♥♥♥Kristin♥♥♥ wrote: "I do everything myself. I don't like the idea of someone I don't know telling me what I should change in my book."

My view is that writing fiction well is extremely difficult. The craft is so vast and requires so much knowledge that it is impossible for one person to know everything.

My ultimate goal is to produce a piece of writing that will entertain my reader to the greatest extent possible.

Given that I can't possibly know everything and that there exists a pool of people out there who can help me make my work better, I can't see advising anyone not to use an editor. If I could afford it, I'd use mulitple editors.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks.

Brian

Roger wrote: "I went on to say that I do recommend using these services if the writer can afford them. If not, then we have to learn them and do as well as we can.

I meant to say that even if you can afford ..."

Roger,

I tend to think of it this way:

An editor can only spend enough time on your book to take it from one point to another. If you start at A, they'll take it to B. If you can start at B, though, they'll take it to C.

Thanks.

Brian

♥♥♥Kristin♥♥♥ wrote: "I do everything myself. I don't like the idea of someone I don't know telling me what I should change in my book."

Just curious/nosy - does that mean you self publish without using a professional editor or any form of critique partners to help polish the MS?

Brian wrote: "Roger wrote: "I went on to say that I do recommend using these services if the writer can afford them. If not, then we have to learn them and do as well as we can.

I meant to say that even if y..."

Brian,

Excellent analysis. Very succinct, yet easily understood.

From a few of the previous posts, I believe that some do not realize that conceptual editors do not tell an author to change anything. They merely point out areas that they feel could use polishing and be improved. Since they are presented as suggestions and advice, the author decides whether or not to heed or ignore them.

Another set of eyes is essential to producing a quality work. Our brain often translates what we are seeing as we intended for it to read, not as it actually reads.

Brian wrote: "...An editor can only spend enough time on your book to take it from one point to another. If you start at A, they'll take it to B. If you can start at B, though, they'll take it to C...."

I agree, there's no doubt an editor can polish a work. There is always room for improvement. I also agree with your previous comment. I'd use two different editors to get different viewpoints. Then I'd send the revisions I made to a third editor. That would be the ultimate learning experience.

Sadly, it still comes down to what you can afford. It's not impossible to have a professional looking book without an editor, but it takes a lot more work and patience.

I have no problem having someone I don't know suggest changes. It's still my choice to make those changes, even if it comes from an editor. I welcome honest, constructive criticism from any source, even reviews. It helps me make the next book even better. I think that should be the goal of every SPA; to become a better writer.

I didn't write to get my name up in lights; rather to record the stories of people I have met over the years. I haven't pushed the publicity and thus I haven't achieved many sales. BUT, I am very happy with the great reviews I received on Amazon, and that's what matters to me.
Pete Stevens

Jim wrote: "Derrolyn wrote: "Better watch yourselves people. They booted Linda for her thoughtful commentary.
*sarcasm font"

Derrolyn,

Who are "They" and precisely what in Linda's "thoughtful commentary" was..."

Speaking as a reader who has been on this site for a few years, I found Linda Hilton a wonderful resource for writers and readers. She was very proactive when it came to removing paid reviews, as well as someone who while blunt, gave wonderful advice.

She was one of the good ones, and Goodreads banned her without an explanation. Never mind that many authors who have paid for positive reviews remain on GR.

"They" in Derrolyn's quote refers to Goodreads, BTW. One of the reasons I will never post a review on this site.

I haven't known Linda as long as Reyna'sMom, but I also found her posts and correspondence with her intelligent, thoughtful, thought provoking. She also impressed me as someone who was passionate about ethics in writing and publishing.

Roger wrote: "...All the more reason for SPAs to learn how to do it so it is, maybe not professional, at least acceptable..."

As a reader I think it is very unfair to produce a less than professional product and expect readers to PAY for the "acceptable" version. This is business and if you can't put out a quality product - then don't charge for it.

What's acceptable and to whom? Here is exactly where the SPA gets a bad rep. I don't like paying for anything and then finding out it's not up to professional standards. Books with poor to no editing has happened to me too often. I lean toward traditionally published books for that reason.

Please don't tell me the "TP books have errors too". I've found typos but nothing compared to some of the SP books I've read full of grammar, spelling, punctuation, sentence structure, syntex, cliches and echoes errors to the point of being unreadable.

If an author can't afford to pay an editor, he can at least have multiple people read the work before he publishes; a writing group, a writing class from the local college - somebody. No one, and I mean no one, can edit their own work effectively.

You're right about needing other eyes, Christine. It's amazing what just a handful of other readers will catch, and if it's reciprocal, you'll get better at editing your own work, too.

One of the big reasons I don't read as much new writing (from a Big House or otherwise) as I probably should is that it is rare for me to find one that doesn't irritate the shit out of me with, as you say, grammar, spelling, typos, punctuation, sentence structure, syntax, cliches and just plain old banality. Lately I've read better stuff from SPAs than from publishers, but I tend to prefer literary fiction to genre. Once upon a time I loved fantasy, but aside from McKillip and a few others, it's reached the point where, like most suspense and mystery stories, the predictability and the repetition bores me to tears.

The one place I'm finding books published consistently without all the mistakes and with a high standard of writing is university presses.

Reyna's Mom wrote: "She was one of the good ones, and Goodreads banned her without an explanation. "

I didn't realise Linda had been banned. I thought her posts were always spot on and she did a tireless job trying to push back the tide of sock puppets :(

It gives me a eye twitch when indies complain they can't afford an editor. Publishing is a business and producing a professional product costs money - the biggies being cover art and editing. As a reader, why should I pay for an inferior product? I always use the "look inside" feature now before spending my money on an unknown (to me) author.

Didn't we always use the "look inside" feature back when we bought books in bookstores?

Renee wrote: "Didn't we always use the "look inside" feature back when we bought books in bookstores?"

Yes! Exactly.

Has the "look inside" feature always been available on Amazon or is it a recent (last year or two) addition? Makes life much easier and just like a real bookstore I can grab a coffee while I "browse" :)

It's been there a lot longer than the last year or two, not sure if it was from the beginning, but it might well have been.

I wish people would use the Look Inside feature! Smashwords also allows a partial download, which I think is a bit more than the Amazon sneak peek. I want readers to see that my books are professionally edited. I pay for editing services. I pay for professional images and design. I paid to go to college and earn my writing degree. I don't want to give my work away for free!

Darlene wrote: "I wish people would use the Look Inside feature! Smashwords also allows a partial download, which I think is a bit more than the Amazon sneak peek. I want readers to see that my books are professio..."

I agree, Darlene. I don't want to give my work away for free, either. But, it helps in getting word of mouth about your book around if you are an unknown.

Before I did the free promotion on Kindle, my books barely made a sale, no one paid attention to the advertisements. After a free promotion on a couple of them, things began to happen. So, it works. If the readers who get your work for free, like what they read, then word will spread, and so will your sales.

Where once the line graph in my sales' report resembled that of a lifeless, straight line, now it's come to life with different levels of sales every week.

Just remember, once you become popular, you won't have to give another book away free. People will be eagerly awaiting your next release :)

Renee wrote: "The one place I'm finding books published consistently without all the mistakes and with a high standard of writing is university presses. ..."

You are quite correct the University and many Small publishers are doing a better job at putting a professional product into readers' hands. They are also better at producing the "out of the box" stories instead of the constant marketable themes.

But how many free copies are you having to give out to get a sale? In my experience, most people who download free ebooks are serial downloaders. They read maybe 1% of what they download.

Tommy wrote: "But how many free copies are you having to give out to get a sale? In my experience, most people who download free ebooks are serial downloaders. They read maybe 1% of what they download."

You're right, and that accounts for our books having high numbers on the to-read lists instead of sales. And that's what I hate about it. It's like they wait for the free downloads so they can keep $2.99 in their pockets, while they'll spend hundreds on a phone. Boy, you've got me started :)

When I released one of my books, it did nothing for a while, then I did a free promotion and thousands were downloaded. I can't pay my mortgage with the resulting sales, but word of mouth is starting to get around.

It's like one of those ventures other businesses have to do to get noticed--give out huge discounts, give away freebies so word-of-mouth can spread about their product. Once it becomes popular, there are more sales and less freebies--right?