SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Armor by John Steakley
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein

All three have a very similar basic plot, but with different takes on the situation. It's especially cool to read Heinlein versus Haldeman. The first idolized the military after serving in peacetime & the second hated after serving in Vietnam. Steakley is off on his own tangent, but it's a wonderful book.

Shannon
Yes, it's a fun book. Adams is very good at this kind of writing. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a must read, but I believe it's more comedy/parody/spoof. He pokes fun at everything and everybody.
Shannon you wrote:

I really enjoyed the Crystal Singer trilogy - I'm not sure how much fun it'd be just to read the first book of it though. I have the omnibus and read them right through, which made for a good read.

With 4+ books in the trilogy, can't the same thing be said about Hitchhiker's Guide?
On the side have you ever seen the BBC's mini series of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? IMHO it's way better than the recent movie.

On a different note, how about Have Spacesuit Will Travel?

G W Pickle

Space opera is characterised by big, romantic, possibly melodramatic adventure tales set primarily in space, usually involving fleets of spaceships, federations, empires or coalitions, powerful heroes and dastardly villains and large dramatic gestures.

I'd say that Foundation is NOT space opera. The later books might qualify, but the first book does not fit.

The Crystal Singer trilogy is also not space opera. I like the first two books quite a bit, but they really don't fit the description.

Hitchhiker's Guide is an interesting suggestion...when I first saw it listed I didn't think it would qualify, but rereading the definition again, I can see how it would fit and since it's one of my favorite books...

I started a list in the Listopia section for Excellent Space Opera and put a bunch of my suggestions in there (I did ask for only the first book in a series to be listed though, to keep down the sheer number of them.)
Please go add some of your suggestions!
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show_ta...

My vote is for reading one of the Lensman books - they are classic space opera, yet something I've never gotten around to reading before.

Some space opera series I haven't seen posted in this thread yet (that I recommend):

Seafort Saga, the first book is Midshipman's Hope

The Outback Stars, first in a series by an Australian author

Herris Serrano series, the first book is
Hunting Party: Book 1

Esmay Suiza series, spinoff from Serrano series, the first book is:
Once a Hero

Drakas series, the omnibus is
The Domination

Hammers Slammers series

the General series, first book is The Forge

IMHO:
I don't think that Hitchiker's Guide really qualifies for space opera - it is more of the story of a single/group of adventurers than it is a story of large conflict, etc of the definition.
By the same token, I love the Crystal Singer series, but it too is the story of an individual and her life and adventures, not anything larger.

I think stuff like the Foundation series is too 'deep' to be space opera - reading that stuff really stretched my brain to keep on top of the philosophical/social science theory that permeates it. By the same token, the Uplift series is fabulous, but is also too 'deep' to be space opera - lots of ethics and politics, not so much 'romantic swashbuckling adventure'.

Most space opera seems to be militaristic in nature, because that is where you see the battles, the large-scale conflict, the conflict of good v evil. Heck, even Star Wars has tons of space battles!

Just my opinion of course, but I'm afraid that if Hitchhiker's Guide is in the poll, it will runaway with the win...knowing how this group tends to vote. I, for one, do not think it would make for interesting discussions.

How about Keith Laumer? Diplomat at Arms is a Retief novel. Earthblood is full of aliens & adventure.

I'll second the 'NO' vote for Hitchhiker.

I third the the "NO" vote for Hitchhicker. Please don't make me read that. :P

I would be interested in Modesitt's the forever hero.


no to hichhiker

I'll join the chorus of "No" votes for Hitchiker. It is more humor/parody than space opera. I had forgotten the Seafort series--Midshipman's Hope is quite good also.

But, I think I will stay with my nomination of the Lensmen Series, Book Three, Galactic Patrol. It was one of the very first space operas AND not many people have read it.

I second the Banks books, especially the original Culture Trilogy(though Algebraist and Matter are also very good.)
Any of Alastair Reynolds Revelation Space books(Revelation Space, Chasm City, Redemption Arc, Galactic North, Absolution Gap, and Diamond Dogs/Turquoise Days.)
M. John Harrison Light, Nova Swing, and Centauri Device
Alfred Bester My Stars my Destination aka Tiger Tiger
Samuel Delaney Nova
Rhys Hughes Crystal Cosmos
George R.R. Martin Nightflyers
Bruce Sterling Shismatrix
Charles Stross Accelerando, Singularity Sky, Iron Sunrise, and Glasshouse
Michael Swanwick Vacuum Flowers

The New Space Opera

A great survey of the sub-genre, just out in paperback.

The New Space Opera

I agree that the Foundation series isn't really space opera -- more like classic SF -- but it is still good and well worth reading if you are a SF lover and still haven't. The original trilogy is quite excellent, and the continued series is tolerable for as long as Asimov was writing it. I haven't really read the extensions, since as far as I'm concerned the last scene in the last book was an adequately satisfactory ending to a series that was already edging out into the "too long" category.

This is one of the "great" future histories, really. One day as an extended project (not a simple book read, but a series of series reads) it might be worth doing "comparative future histories) and reading/critiquing/discussing something like:

Heinlein (Father of the loosely chained future history, in some sense)
Asimov (Robot AND Foundation, of course)
Niven (one of my favorite authors of all time)
Brin
McCaffery
Bujold

and maybe one or two more that I'm forgetting. A "future history" by definition a series of novels by a single author (or in a few cases, by multiple authors) that are not obviously or directly plot connected but that nevertheless all take place in a single "future universe", so that each novel is a part of the other novels' future or past. They often contain actual series (usually short) inside.

Having a single coherent future universe might even be one of the defining characterists of SF master (or might not -- interesting topic of discussion right there:-). If nothing else, it provides readers with a degree of comfort and familiarity without the arm-twisting associated with wheel-of-time-like interminable series. A master's books tend to "finish" at some point and be readable without ALWAYS being left hanging...

Back on topic, I'm trying to scratch my brain and think up some old/forgotten SF that is loosely describable as space opera:

Piers Anthony's Macroscope
Niven and Pournelle's Mote in God's Eye etc

(Neither of which is properly cheesy enough, but which are damn good reads with large fleets, BEMs, cosmic "sweep" to the story.)

Let's see, cheesy, cheesy... ERB's Mars series is definitely cheesy and is the prototype of all SO but it is lacking the "space" part -- no fleets of space ships.

Asimov's Lucky Starr e.g. Lucky Starr and the Pirates of the Asteroids -- can't get much cheesier or operatic, and Asimov is a grand master and even books like this are "good" books.

Heinlein's Have Spacesuit, Will Travel is actually a lovely novel, one of my favorites. Everybody has read (or more likely seen the movie) Starship Troopers, but HSWT is relatively unknown and has a winsome charm. Heinlein's "Rocket Ship Galileo" is near-space opera as well, complete with "pirates" operating on the moon in the form of leftover Nazis. A bit short of BEMs, though.

Edmund Hamilton wrote a pile of Space Opera back in the 30's through the 60's. Interstellar Patrol, Captain Future, Starwolf, etc. Can't go wrong there, dozens of titles to choose from (hopefully some still in print).

Lin Carter was a master of cheese -- Jandar of Callisto, Green Star, Outworlder. He righteously ripped off ERB but promoted ERB's pre-spaceflight into out and out SO.

Andre Norton had a number of novels that were arguably SO. Blasters and BEMs. Beast Master, Star Hunter, Voodoo Planet. Astra (The Stars are Ours!).

Jack Chalker's Well of Souls series.

You see where I'm going with this. MOST of the choices that have been proposed so far are much more what I'd call "mainstream Science Fiction" than "Space Opera". Space Opera involves things like space pirates, bug-eyed monsters, FTL travel with no particular effort expended on explaining how an itty-bitty spaceship can carry enough energy to travel halfway across the galaxy and fight a space battle involving enormous fleets that it finds waiting in its path halfway there. Little things like the speed of light, energy conservation, common sense mean nothing to it -- it is a form of "fantasy" about the laws of nature that requires good-natured willingness to suspend disbelief far beyond that demanded by Brin or Niven. It has protagonists carrying, and sometimes using, "blasters", "laser pistols", personal shields, and even swords. There was a whole era of SF where the pulps supported SF authors, who in turn wrote lurid serialized tales that could be published in the pulps -- the "golden age" of space opera, as it were. I'd suggest we mine some of this instead of going contemporary, because contemporary SF (with the obvious exception of Star Trek and Star Wars) just isn't cheesy enough to be considered Space Opera.

rgb

I'll second L.E. Modesitt Jr. as an author to read. Besides the Forever Hero (one of my favorite trilogies The Forever Hero: Dawn for a Distant Earth, The Silent Warrior, In Endless Twilight) he also wrote the EcoThe Ecologic Envoy along with 3 other books. The last is a space operas for sure. The first two don't have space fights.

If we need cheese, I can't think of a better book than John W. Campbell Jr.'s Arcot, Wade & Morey trilogy. Any one of the books, although I don't know how easy they are to find. I have Islands of Space, but I don't know if I've seen the rest around. Haven't really looked. It might be easier to find Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers by Harry Harrison which is a spoof on them.

Macroscope by Piers Anthony is probably his best book, IMO. No space fleets, though.

rgb posted
MOST of the choices that have been proposed so far are much more what I'd call "mainstream Science Fiction" than "Space Opera". Space Opera involves things like space pirates, bug-eyed monsters, FTL travel with no particular effort expended on explaining how an itty-bitty spaceship can carry enough energy to travel halfway across the galaxy and fight a space battle involving enormous fleets that it finds waiting in its path halfway there. Little things like the speed of light, energy conservation, common sense mean nothing to it -- it is a form of "fantasy" about the laws of nature that requires good-natured willingness to suspend disbelief far beyond that demanded by Brin or Niven. It has protagonists carrying, and sometimes using, "blasters", "laser pistols", personal shields, and even swords. There was a whole era of SF where the pulps supported SF authors, who in turn wrote lurid serialized tales that could be published in the pulps -- the "golden age" of space opera, as it were.

With this defination you could include the Dune series.
G W Pickle

I pity whoever has to go through this thread and decipher the nominations.

Having heard so much about it recently, I'm interested in a "Lensman" read; as I'm not familiar with the series at all, I'm open to suggestions regarding the starting volume (i.e. Triplanetary: A Tale of Cosmic Adventure or Galactic Patrol).

GW: I certainly read Hitchhikers as one complete novel, it wouldn't be half so good if too much time went by in-between volumes. My concern with the Crystal Singer books (I thought there were only three but it's been a long time)is that it's quite long - an easy read, but the size could put people off.

I've changed my mind cause you make a good argument: I agree with Ben etc.: including Hitchhikers in the poll would unbalance it because it's such a recognisable title, so it might be better to leave it off.

I have a new nomination: Jaran by Kate Elliott - excellent book, first in a four-book series that's amazing.

Wow, I hardly recognise any of these titles. I picked up Hyperion yesterday out of curiosity but I think I'd only read it if it was voted for.

I pity whoever has to go through this thread and decipher the nominations.

That'll be Nick or me, Ben :) Speaking of which, when is the deadline for getting these nominations in? I never thought of it before. Nick? How long is this open for?

I'm seconding the Hyperion Cantos. The whole thing. I guess I consider it more science fantasy than anything, but it certainly fits the bill for space opera as well.

Please, please read Catherine Asaro's works. There are several. You can read them chronologically or not, however you want. All of them explain enough. http://www.catherineasaro.net/index.html
I just finished Ascendant Sun, the sequel to The Last Hawk. It was amazing.

Linnea Sinclair's Gabriel's Ghost was awesome. So was Ann Aguirre's Grimspace. Those both have sequels, but they would stand alone.

My 2 cents.

Mos of Jack Vance's books could be considered space opera: The Dying Earth, Emphyrio, The Planet of Adventure series, The Demon Princes series, Showboat World, etc... There are some that are more fantasy but these are mostly what I call space opera!

I think RGB has a good point, but I don't know the old Space Opera well enough to make any suggestions.

Well, I don't really know space opera that well, but I voted for the genre. It just sounds cool. So these are my suggestions (mostly influenced by the wikipedia entry on space opera and slightly influenced by whether the book appeared available on amazon):
1. Keeping It Real (Quantum Gravity, Book 1) by Justina Robson (this one sounds fun w/ "sex, rockin' elves and drunk faeries" from the Publisher's Weekly review)
2. Mappa Mundi by Justina Robson
3. Natural History by Justina Robson
4. Skylark Three by E. E. "Doc" Smith
5. Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein (it was suggested above)
---
I would also read The New Space Opera compilation (suggested above). Although maybe Hitchhiker's Guide doesn't seem traditional, I would maybe read that b/c it's funny. Along those lines if there were more copies around, I'd read What Mad Universe by Frederic Brown b/c it's a genre parody.

THere is also Vinge's sequel which is called a Deepness in the Sky. but my nomination would be Old Man's War by John Scalzi.

To Ben's point on the plethora of nominations ... is there a poll or something for this? Maybe one in which the person making a recommendation can add to the poll?

I'm ending it soon and adding a poll. I've been swamped, however so there might be a delay.