Indie Book Club discussion

I think the consensus on ads has been that they don't really pay (google, goodreads, etc). But has anyone purchased goodreads ads and had any success as a result? I mean, did you even come close to getting your $ back?

Can't help you there. Never used 'em, nor have I contemplated using them. My book writing budget is practically non-existant, which is why I went the whole self-published route. I'm learning lots along the way, that's for sure.

But, that being said, I'm curious as well. I'd like to hear from anyone who has used the ads. Good idea? Bad idea? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

I tried goodreads ads for a little while on a small budget. It was a huge fail. At first, I got clicks, but I didn't see a corresponding sale increase. Then, for several days there were no clicks. I thought my book sucked so nobody wanted to see it but, in reality, by ads were only being displayed to about 1000 people per day. No matter what I did same result. All of a sudden, things changed and I started getting clicks again.

For me, the experience wasn't a great one. Maybe it will work for more well known authors.

It does seem like its really hit or miss. Getting that 140-character blurb is hard... maybe that needs to be cycled too. But do we ever make back that money we spend, that is the question.

I give them a big thumbs down. Tossed $20 at each system and watched the results as an experiment.

Google: Even with very specific targeting, I had over 250,000 views before the $20 was expended. One purchase. At that rate, I lose about $18 of every $20 spent.

Goodreads: Again, was very careful with targeting. I'm at 150,000 views at a click-through rate of 0.02%. Not awful, but not great (0.03% is ideal in theory). Sadly, it didn't help sales one bit.

I get more sales off of chatting with people by far than off the ads. Reviews on blogs help even more than that.

Hope that helps some!
Jim

I'd have to concur with Jim. The more I chat with various people in these forums, on Amazon, etc., the more people you're chatting with go to check you out.

I have two books. One is free, the other is priced at $2.99. On average, I get one sale of Bakkian II for every 9 copies of Bakkian I that's downloaded. In the UK, that ratio is about 11 copies of Book I. All in all, it's a really sweet deal. Before I did that I'd be lucky if I picked up a sale a month. Just gotta find something to "kickstart" interest in your book(s)!

With advertising, everyone I've spoken with, and I do mean everyone, has said that they have yet to find a reliable source of advertising that actually boosts sales. Most count themselves incredibly lucky if they break even.

Don't mean to disparage anyone, but thought I'd throw my 2 cents in... :)

Big J

I appreciate the feedback. I'm thinking networking and word of mouth are much better avenues. You see those ads at the side and think "Oh, mine could be there!" But the numbers just don't seem to warrant the investment. Maybe if I win a bunch of money or something.

That's my philosophy. As much as I'd like to heavily promote/advertise my book, writing is still a hobby of mine. Don't get me wrong. If the opportunity comes by to one day write full-time, I sure as hell will take it. As it stands, I can't justify any type of advertising budget.

It was a stretch when I hired the artist to create the cover for book II, and then arrange to have it edited. Luckily, I've more than made that back from sales of the book. :)

I have used them and not had good experience. I don't think they are worth it and I would not use them again.

I appreciate the feedback in this thread. After a lackluster release of my collection, I've been contemplating putting ads out. I don't have much of a budget to work with, but I thought Goodreads would be a nice start.

After reading this thread, I think I'll try to find other options. Thanks!

Unless you are selling a non-fiction book which solves a specific problem - you cannot think of an ad as "I place an ad, I get a bunch of direct sales."

This because the odds of someone coming here, seeing an ad and wanting to buy a book right then - is low.

Instead it's better for the ad to have some of other way for your book(s) to stay in their mind.

For example - have a way to put the book into their "to read" shelf. Or get them to like your Facebook page or join an email list.

Where you can remind them (e.g. auto-responder) about your book.

Additionally with any ads - you have to test consistently. A single run is not going to move the needle.

But let's say you decided to put $100 or five groups of $20. You do the first run, it shows to 1000 people, 5 people click. 2 buy.

Next run you can decide to change your target audience (e.g. maybe you find out that men between 30-50 clicked the ads most). Then run same ad, but with new audience.

Maybe now you get 20 clicks and 4 buy out of the 1000.

Next you change the headline.

or the offer

The key is to keep testing and only change one thing at a time because it makes it easier to measure.


Best Regards,

Mark W.

I'm trying the Goodreads ads just to see what happens because my friend's book is getting a lot of Nook buyers, and he's not sure why. He feels it's from having a giveaway on Goodreads, but I've had several on Goodreads and get a lot of Kindle buying but not Nook. He also has an ad on Goodreads. Thus, I'll see if I start getting Nook sales from the ad, which I've put up yesterday. I've had 1102 impressions and one click. That's supposed to be a good rate. Considering I've never clicked on anyone--never noticed before--I suppose it is a good rate.

I noticed the default for the ad is 50 cents a click, but I put mine at a dime, and I don't see what I'm losing out on. Why spend more than the lowest rate? Would someone truly go a dollar a click--or a $150 a click? Why?

I don't yet know all of the specifics of GoodReads ads - but in general the more you pay, the more impressions and/or more prominent locations.

That being said - it would be smart to keep the spend lower until you have enough data that suggest you have a standard conversion rate. Meaning let's say you know that out every 100 impressions you will get 1 conversion (a 1% conversion rate). Thus if you could get that to 1000 impressions - you know you will get 100 conversions.

I've put conversion rate because while you could definitely just link to your book and hope for a sale - you might instead might be aiming for people to put the book on their "to read list". Or join your mailing list. Or tweet your book.

Lots of businesses go this route - notice how many commercials are "visit this website to get our free report" or "call this 800 number to be sent a copy of our guide" - which is really a way for you to agree to give them permission to market to you.

Personally this is an area I'm spending alot of behind scenes time on. For example - putting together short articles that talk about where I got my inspiration for stories, characters, etc.

Then in turn set this up as podcasts and auto-responder.

If I ever was able to write full-time, then I'd consider trying some of the ads. Until then, it's still a hobby for me so I'm forced to sit on the sidelines and watch how it works for others!

Big J

I think I might try it, but start low, just to see. What about old fashion business cards...? Has anyone gone that route? Just brainstorming other ideas here

I'm working on business cards as well as bookmarks for my books that has a qr code on it. That way if you have a smart phone and scan the code, it'll either provide links to Amazon or maybe to the books' official website. I haven't decided.

Big J

Martin wrote: "I think I might try it, but start low, just to see. What about old fashion business cards...? Has anyone gone that route? Just brainstorming other ideas here"

Business cards are most likely not very useful except for maybe exchanging contact information with other writers at conferences.

Jeffrey wrote: "I'm working on business cards as well as bookmarks for my books that has a qr code on it. That way if you have a smart phone and scan the code, it'll either provide links to Amazon or maybe to th..."

I think you'll be better off with a short domain that redirects to your page than QR code. QR codes are very hard to use for most people. Plus it's easier to share a short URL elsewhere - like Twitter, email, forums, etc.

QR codes can be difficult to comprehend for the older crowd. Many of the newer generation have iPhones, Androids, Blackberrys, etc., that have built in apps for reading those codes. Do I plan on really attracting new readers using that? Probably not. But if the situation arises where someone looks at the bookmark, or business card, and sees the code, they can easily scan it and either be directed to a place where they can buy the book or else the book's page on my website.

Short domains are convenient, but in my experience, those short names can be a deterrent. Granted, most of my clients are seniors, but the ones that are around my age or younger, they know based on their computer background that if they don't recognize the type of link, or can't recognize the domain name, they'll avoid it. Sadly, in this day and age computer users have to be leery about links and webpages lest they pick up a virus.

Virus removal and pc cleanup is my bread and butter. Just my opinion. Truth of the matter is if I think it'll help my book out, or possibly attract new readers, I'll investigate to see if I want to do it.

Provided it's not Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, etc. I'm anti-social networking.

Jeffrey wrote: "QR codes can be difficult to comprehend for the older crowd. Many of the newer generation have iPhones, Androids, Blackberrys, etc., that have built in apps for reading those codes. Do I plan on ..."

While you shouldn't use Facebook or Twitter as your only website - they are where millions of potential readers are so avoiding them is silly. You don't have to be on there constantly - but you need to have a presence. And tools like Buffer make it easy to have a presence without having to spend lots of time.

And by short domains - I'm not talking about URL shorteners, I literally mean a short domain (for example www.abcd.com) or a domain just for your book (e.g. www.mybreakoutnovel.com). While some people are leery of clicking on links - the vast majority are not. In particular if you have earned their trust (e.g. they met you in person, talked online, had the link shared by a friend).

While not using Facebook and Twitter might be considered silly to some, for me it's a personal preference. I resent everything they stand for. I believe it to be a violation of privacy. While I know they are good avenues for advertising one's books, I will explore every other option before I even remotely consider using them. I can't tell you how many times I've helped clients of mine get on Facebook and a month or two later they are requesting that I get them off of Facebook. Young and old. It's a passing fad.

Oh, short domains. Thought you were referring to URL shorteners, which also seems to be a fad. I will say that I'm all for a super-short domain. Makes it easier to remember, and fits better on promotional material. That's why I chose "www.Lentari.com" over "www.BakkianChronicles.com".

My phone prompts me to log into Facebook. My iPad wants to integrate with Facebook. Hell, even my wifi-enabled TV wants me to sign in with Facebook.

Plain and simple: my life isn't that interesting. I don't need people knowing:

1. What I'm doing 24 hours a day
2. Who I've talked to and when
3. What news articles I read on the Internet
4. What I watch on TV
5. What movies I watch

Trust me, the list goes on and on. Moral of this story is, you don't have to be technologically impaired to not use Facebook or Twitter. What's more, I know I'm not alone.

Sign me ---

Microsoft Certified Tech w/ 17+ Years of Experience

Talk about your major tangent. Without further ado, we'll return this thread to its proper topic of conversation. :)

Jeffrey wrote: "My phone prompts me to log into Facebook. My iPad wants to integrate with Facebook. Hell, even my wifi-enabled TV wants me to sign in with Facebook.

Plain and simple: my life isn't that interes..."
I will circle the thread back :).

Social networking (including GoodReads - this site is an example of a vertical social network) can be useful but it's how do you use it.

For example - instead of sharing what you just ate on Facebook (unless you're writing a cookbook) - sharing links that you think would be interesting to your readers/fans. And occasionally sharing promotional material.

For GoodReads ads - it would probably work better to link to a longer sample and either ask for them to subscribe to your mailing list (where you could regularly remind them about your book(s)) or of course buy your book.

Jeffrey wrote: "My phone prompts me to log into Facebook. My iPad wants to integrate with Facebook. Hell, even my wifi-enabled TV wants me to sign in with Facebook.

Plain and simple: my life isn't that interes..."

I agree. Was following some folks on twitter and every time I logged in the stream was a constant dump of every last thing. Plus every other a cry to buy the person's book... wow, not quite the way to do it I guess. Stopped following because I don't like spam.

I'll tweet interesting articles from time to time or retweet something says that I find interesting. But it's become over the top.

Jeffrey wrote: "QR codes can be difficult to comprehend for the older crowd."

Oh good. It's official. I am part of the older crowd, lol. Completely unfamiliar with QR codes.
;-)

QR codes re those funky square box things that can be scanned by smart phones.

Here's the one I generated as a test:

http://www.lentari.com/wp-content/upl...

Ah, okay. I've seen them, just didn't know the actual term for them.

As for Goodreads ads, my impressions went way up doing a few things that the Faqs don't make clear. You can run more than one ad at the same time for the same campaign. You can do a few things with this fact. One is that you can change the text and see which text brings the most clicks. This information might help you, too, with your pitch line that you use on Amazon or elsewhere.

Also having different ads lets you target differently. One ad might be devoted to genres. Another ad might target readers of specific authors. Another ad might not have any targeting.

If you have more than one book, you might use older books as ads for the same campaign. YOU are the campaign.

Last, if your impressions are going down consistently for a particular ad, change it. Do you really like seeing the same Superbowl ad for the 100th time? What was interesting a few times gets tiring. Change is the order here.

In all honesty I've had more people add my book on GR for the $50 in printing and postage my giveaway is costing me than in $300 of pay-per-click. That said a large number of those adding my book have thousands of books to read though I'm still crossing my fingers they will get to mine =)

A few weeks ago I received $100 in Google Adwords credit and I decided to give it a try. So far I'm about halfway through the credit and I've only sold a few copies of either of my books as a result.

I'm not sure if my landing page for the ad is bad, or if I just haven't hit the right market, but I'm glad I didn't spend any of my own money on the promotion.

I think I'll try a GR giveaway next, because at least I'll know the end result is the book in the hands of a reader.

The math for Google pay per click shows you're not going to be making a profit. Let's say you have a cheap PPC of $0.10. If you convert 10% (amazing!) then it's still costing you a $1 to make that sale.

Another way to look at it is in terms of brand building. If people are seeing your ads, some even clicking, then seeing the same names elsewhere, say on the Kindle store, then it all reinforces.

I think one of the hardest things for an Indie is gaining recognition and being taken seriously. The ad campaigns make it look like a professional offering as the ad is right alongside other professional stuff.

I blew the UK equivalent voucher and it did work in terms of driving traffic to my web site, but not in terms of sales.

I'm using them right now. Started out small, just $20. Four days in the campaign and I have 3,049 views and no clicks. And it stopped cold on that view count and hasn't moved in 24 hours. Not impressed. The most success I've had is with Facebook. 149K views and 130 clicks so far after four days.

Personally, I think that ads are more for brand building than profits. I don't think anyone should expect to make back their investment unless they have books on bestseller lists.

I look at ads as a chance for exposure, I don't expect them to make money for me.

I headed up the advertising department at a newspaper for a while, and I remember the advice we gave our clients about advertising, which applies here too, I think.

A constant exposure of ads is good for branding, as has been said here, but it won't drive too many sales.

If you want to really get people to click and act, you have to be advertising something much more tangible and immediate, like: first 1000 clicks get entered into a free draw! or something (less lame) like that. If you're holding a contest, or having an event, or something specific, ads that have a clear "call to action" can be effective. Unfortunately, "buy my book!" isn't an effective call to action... :)

Like everything in marketing, ads have to be part of your overall marketing campaign and tied to other elements - if you do them in isolation, their effectiveness will be greatly decreased.

Very good points to consider, Bennett. Thanks! I'm still torn with advertising. I write as a hobby, and unfortunately, my hobby doesn't qualify for an advertising budget. Although, I could probably swing it 'cause book II has done really well.

But that'll have to wait until our vacation is over. Proceeds from book II are paying for our Disneyland vacation this year!

I've had a positive experience with a Goodreads Giveaway. I gave away one copy but many people added my book to their to-read shelves.

I have not used any paid advertising as frankly I cant afford it. I have no illusions about my book suddenly selling a million copies. I told my friends, via email and facebook and asked them- even if you yourself dont like this please share the details. I set up a facebook author page- which is public whereas my personal page is restricted. I do agree you get a stream of spams about so and so did this that and the other but you can ignore those. I joined a few other author groups- which has been nice. Some let me promote there and it is nice to see what other people have done.

I made a couple of sales solely from the page. Fair enough if you dont have them though.

For the record I am happy to "like", share links and discuss even putting a link to a book here on my page (It does depend if I would read it, PM me and I will see.) Bear in mind I dont yet have millions of followers so how much good it might do I can't say.

Fantasy writers - Mythic scribes is pretty good.
http://www.facebook.com/DarkFantasyBe...

I recently spoke with Darcie Chan, author of the indie novel "the Mill River Recluse" which has sold almost 700,000 copies. She even said that Goodreads ads did not do a whole heck of a lot for her success. She ran ads on other websites devoted to Kindle Readers and such.

Hi
I'm a Creative Writing and English student at the University of Bolton, UK. I'm currently working on a research project on the effectiveness of Goodreads advertising and if it can help unknown authors find an audience. I came across this thread and it's been really useful. Would it be OK for me to include your opinions in my project? Thanks

I don't owe anyone in Bolton any money, so you can use my stuff all you want. I'll buy ads when I have five books at Amazon. Now I have one. By Thanksgiving, I'll have four. Mid-May #2 comes out: Sonoma Knight's The Goat-Ripper Case. An investigation into wine & cheese & murder. I'm giving 100 copies away free thru Amazon, e-format only. After that, it's back to writing and begging on the corner at rush hour.

Thanks everyone, for sharing. I appreciate the opportunity to learn from you!

I've run tightly targeted Goodreads ads, with multiple ads per campaign, and I think that they have been helpful both in driving sales and in getting people to add books to their "to-read" lists, which is another form of advertising in itself. I see a strong and definite correlation between to-read shelf adds and clicks.

My books have ended up on the Amazon bestsellers lists for their genres. I wouldn't begin to claim that this was due to Goodreads pay-per-click advertising, butI can't deny that it has been an integral part of my marketing.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

I too have not had any luck with Goodreads advertising. Facebook was better for me with targeted ads. It didn't generate additional sales compared to what i shelled out but I got lots of 'likes' every time the ad ran:)

I haven't tried any paid marketing for anyone, be it Amazon, Facebook, or Goodreads. Everyone I've heard from has said that it hasn't really affected their sales (that they could tell) enough to make it worthwhile.

Then again, I'm always on the lookout for the next best thing to help get my books out there.

I've been making use of GR ads for a while now and I think I'm finally ready to just stop. I do get readers adding my books to their TBR lists and maybe I get a sale or two out of it (impossible to tell that for sure), but I've definitely not made my money back. In fact, I was looking at a cost analysis (sounds fancy, it's just spreadsheet with my income and expenses for each book) and GR ads are my biggest recurring expense. I'm down to my last $10 in my account and won't be adding any more funds unless they do something with the program to make it more effective.

I ran GR campaigns for about four months this year. Got terrible results, not even really getting that many people entering in my giveaways. So I spent at least $60 for no real sales from it. I've actually done better getting sales from facebook and twitter.

I've run one ad on eReader News Today.com, and it resulted in 154 sales of my book that had been put on sale for 99 cents.

They require 10 reviews, 4 stars and higher, and don't accept everyone.

Their payment process is awesome, as they take 25% of the net profits. Of course, it is based on the numbers they see through their affiliate link. That day, partly because of rankings on lists, I had an eight additional sales.

Bookbub, I've been told, is able to really move the numbers. Again, one must be putting their book on sale, it must be at least 50% discount, and their prices are high.

For instance, a book on sale for 99 cents, if they accepted you to their email blast, would cost $480.00. One would need 1371 sales to break even. This number is below their average for that category. (Note: I'm quoting the prices in the mystery genre, which is the most expensive and has the most people who receive the blasts.)

The other place is pixels of ink, but I've never had one of my books selected by them. They move the needle a bunch.

I hope this helps.

Once my giveaway ends, I'm planning to attempt a goodreads ad. I will let you know the result. After sitting on my fantasy novel for eight years, I'm finally ready to have some people get a look at it. I have searched for reviewers, but many of them require a minimum number of reviews on your amazon page before they will consider it. Since mine has only attracted one review so far, I don't qualify. It's difficult to be new and clueless about advertising. I'd much rather spend my time working on my second novel than advertising.

So very true. Just about everyone I've heard that have tried a Goodreads ad hasn't had much success.

Keep us posted!

Big J.