Reading the Chunksters discussion

Please discuss below.

I'm dissapointed in the way that Lydgate voted. Not necissarily who he voted for, but how he was kind of goaded into voting the way he did, since I don't think he really had a clear choice in his head when he voted, and may live to regret the decision.

Also, I missed something. What was old man Casaubon upset about? And the way he's been communicating with Dorothea how was she supposed to know he needed comforting? And even if she did know, how was she supposed to comfort him knowing so little because he shares so little?

Kinda cool that we run into Ladislaw again.

And when will we get back to Sir James Chettam? I'm a bit surprised that Lydgate didn't bump into him anywhere, or that Chettam isn't on the board for the hospital.

I was happy to "see" Ladislaw again too.

And I was also disappointed with how Lydgate voted in the end.

@Juliette,
I think that Casaubon and Dorthea are just two very different people. They don't understand each other or their spouse's communication style. It's sad that this is happening already, while just on their honeymoon. I think we are destined to see the failure of their marriage.

Hooray that Ladislaw makes another appearance!

My feeling is that the age difference is a huge factor in Dodo's and Casaubon's inability to connect. They have different goals. Plus, I am disappointed in Dodo, who comes across as so self-sacrificing, but her actions ultimately are a different form of neediness, which is off-putting to Casaubon.

I agree, but I still don't understand what it is that Casaubon is upset about. I must be too much like Dorothea.

He's upset because he isn't making her happy? I can't remember off the top of my head. Is Dorothea starting to wonder if Casaubon really is a clever scholar? Will hints that Casaubon isn't all that. For me this book is about making life choices. How awful marrying someone you don't really know, to find out they don't fit up to your ideal perception.

Juliette wrote: "I agree, but I still don't understand what it is that Casaubon is upset about. I must be too much like Dorothea."

It will become more clear later in the book, where we also learn the reason behind Casaubon's decision to marry Dodo. My comments here reflect my thoughts at this point of the novel, which changed once the characters became more developed.

Sera wrote: "Juliette wrote: "I agree, but I still don't understand what it is that Casaubon is upset about. I must be too much like Dorothea."

It will become more clear later in the book, where we also lea..."

Thanks Sera, I feel better now that I know it's a developing theme and not my failure to read.

Juliette wrote: "Sera wrote: "Juliette wrote: "I agree, but I still don't understand what it is that Casaubon is upset about. I must be too much like Dorothea."

It will become more clear later in the book, where ..."

No problem; at over 850 pages, we should get to know all of these folks pretty well :)

What do people think of Bulstrude? He seems a bit creepy to me, like a spider in the middle of its web gathering information from all the strands of his web, but OTOH he has a strong religious belief and, we are told, gathers it "that he might use it for the glory of God," which certainly in his time was admirable.

As to the Tyke-Farebrother situation, given the meticulous research that Eliot did into the circumstances of the novel's setting I suspect that this reflects some broader division within the Church at that time, but I don't have enough knowledge of the history of the 19th Century church in England to know for sure. Does anybody else have that background and know whether this does represent a broader issue in the Church at that time?

Denise wrote: "And I was also disappointed with how Lydgate voted in the end."

I think that Eliot set this up beautifully. A choice between supporting a friend who has been doing the job for free and needs the money vs. using his vote to strengthen his relationship with a patron who will help him do much good going forward. It's a very nicely set up situation.

Rosamond is another wonderful creation of Eliot. She is so eminently a model of what, as I conceive of provincial society in the 1830s, a young woman aspiring to superiority would be. She is such a delightful contrast to Dorothea and Celia. And totally representative of the dilemma of young women in her class: her only options are to get married or live a dependent spinster in her parents house for as long as they live. What other choice had she?

I feel bad for Lydgate. I feel that "city-folk" often underestimate the amount of politicing that happens in small towns or the country. They have a poor concept of the communities being very familial and simple when compared to the bustle and busyness of London. Yet, when they arrive in a place like Middlemarch they realize that people, with all their faults, are the same everywhere.

I'm going to assume that his underestimating of the Middlemarch is due in part to his idealism. He is very young, I feel its a necessary stage of a person's development to feel at some time that they can change the world, and then realize what they are up against. He made a very practical decision in placing his vote, and to him (and to very very many medical theorists at the time, see: vivisection) the ends justified the means.

I just dont think he realizes that he is in the middle of all this scheming- Rosamund, Vincy, Bulstrode. I think he is going to get wound up into the middle of it without realizing it, and it will be interesting to see how he tries to extricate himself from that. What sacrifices is he willing to make to revolutionize medicine? Is he self-aware enough to realize that that is what these decisions will force him to choose?

As for Dodo, I know Eliot had described her as beautiful before, but I liked the scene with the artsts. It really expresses again her vitality and her innocence. Something about their description of her staring at the sunlight reminded me very much of Bernini's St. Teresa of Avila. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_of_Saint_Teresa

Becky wrote: "I feel bad for Lydgate. I feel that "city-folk" often underestimate the amount of politicing that happens in small towns or the country. They have a poor concept of the communities being very famil..."

There is also the aspect that city folks tend to look down on the country bumpkins, assuming that all true civilization is in the cities. So city folks often come expecting things to be unsophisticated, and get pulled up when they find that there is as much (or more!) wisdom and culture in the country as in the city. (In the 19th Century US, for example, Shakespeare was largely kept alive in the smaller towns, where almost every town had its small theater company performing Shakespeare, not in the cities where they were more interested in new, avaunt-guard productions most of which have, for good reason, long since been gone and buried.)

I think Lydgate is coming with the idea that he knows it all and that these country folks should instantly acknowledge him their master and superior.

Everyman wrote: "Rosamond is another wonderful creation of Eliot. She is so eminently a model of what, as I conceive of provincial society in the 1830s, a young woman aspiring to superiority would be. She is such ..."

I love Rosamond for the reasons you put forth here, Everyman. I think she is one of the characters I can believe in the most and seems the most realistic to me.

Everyman wrote: "Becky wrote: "I feel bad for Lydgate. I feel that "city-folk" often underestimate the amount of politicing that happens in small towns or the country. They have a poor concept of the communities be..."

This is why I think Lydgate is going to struggle so much. He has many ideals and assumptions but they are not always accurate. Hard lessons coming his way I think.

Loved this passage from the start of Chapter 19. Doesn't every era think that they know more of good and evil than their predecessors did? Isn't that sort of as universal as complaining about how rude and undisciplined the younger generation is? (Socrates had such complaints, and probably every generation since!)

When George the Fourth was still reigning over the privacies of Windsor, when the Duke of Wellington was Prime Minister, and Mr. Vincy was mayor of the old corporation in Middlemarch, Mrs. Casaubon, born Dorothea Brooke, had taken her wedding journey to Rome. In those days the world in general was more ignorant of good and evil by forty years than it is at present.

From Chapter 20, when Dorothea is seeking to help Casaubon and he reacts sharply, we are told "She was as blind to his inward troubles as he to hers: she had not yet learned those hidden conflicts in her husband which claim our pity."

To this point, I admit that one emotion I hadn't felt for Casaubon was pity. a bit of disgust, a moment, quickly extinguished, of admiration before it became clear that he was an intellectual humbug, a touch of anger, all of those, but pity?

But Eliot expects us to feel pity for him. Not, presumably, because he married Dorothea; there's nothing in that, at least yet, to pity him for. But because it's becoming pretty clear that his whole dream of creating the Key to all Mythologies is a failure? Because he can't appreciate the virtues and values of Dorothea? Why does Eliot think we should, and more to the point what has she given us to make us want to, pity him?

Like everyone else I said WHAT when Lydgate voted. I guess in that moment we saw a little bit about his character.

I was happy to get back to the Dodo section only to find that what we all assumed was already happening. I smirked when I saw Ladislaw come back into the book. For some reason when he was first introduced by the river I thought to myself not that is the kind of young man that Dodo should be interested in. The gears are already turning in my head to see where this relationship is going :)

Everyman said "I think that Eliot set this up beautifully. A choice between supporting a friend who has been doing the job for free and needs the money vs. using his vote to strengthen his relationship with a patron who will help him do much good going forward. It's a very nicely set up situation." I agree 100% and very well said!

Everyman

But Eliot expects us to feel pity for him. Not, presumably, because he married Dorothea; there's nothing in that, at least yet, to pity him for. But because it's becoming pretty clear that his whole dream of creating the Key to all Mythologies is a failure? Because he can't appreciate the virtues and values of Dorothea? Why does Eliot think we should, and more to the point what has she given us to make us want to, pity him?

I think this is difficult given our modern perspective. To me, personally, Causabon seems middleaged, not some old man as he is supposed to be. When someone in their middle age is failing as he is at making sensible life choices (marrying DoDo, being scared to publish, etc), its just frusterating, not pitiable. However, what Causabon really is, is an old man, at the much shorter end of a life in which he really hasn't been able to produce much. I feel that Eliot really didnt want to convey that he had a great mind, he understands what he reads, he is intelligent, his thoughts are just jumbled and his is plagued by anxiety. Generally a nervous wreck myself I can at least pity that :)

Eliot certainly set him up for us to believe that, at least in his earlier years, he was charitable to Ladislaw. May be it wasn't charity, but he certainl has a keen sense of duty that wouldn't have moved others in his position. Now he just seems like a crotchety old man, stuck with a wife that is no more suited to the marriage than he is. I think their whole concept of marriage/courting is hard for modern minds to wrap around, so its failure or success doesn't necessarily evoke the emotions originally intended by the author.

Everyman wrote: "From Chapter 20, when Dorothea is seeking to help Casaubon and he reacts sharply, we are told "She was as blind to his inward troubles as he to hers: she had not yet learned those hidden conflicts ..."

I find it very interesting how Eliot, as narrator, leads us to believe certain characteristics of the people in this story by simply telling us that these characteristics actually do exist. I think it's her way of saying that we shouldn't judge people at face value - that there are other things to consider that may make our view more compassionate toward that person, or even empathetic.

Andrea wrote: "Like everyone else I said WHAT when Lydgate voted. I guess in that moment we saw a little bit about his character.

I was happy to get back to the Dodo section only to find that what we all assum..."

Lydgate's vote gives us insight into what motivates him - i.e., ambition versus morality or loyalty - it made me wonder what kind of bad karma that he was creating for himself. I feel that Lydgate may be too smart for his own good.

Everyman wrote: " Why does Eliot think we should, and more to the point what has she given us to make us want to, pity him? ..."

I pity him for his inability to appreciate his beautiful young wife.

Sera wrote: "Lydgate's vote gives us insight into what motivates him - i.e., ambition versus morality or loyalty - it made me wonder what kind of bad karma that he was creating for himself. I feel that Lydgate may be too smart for his own good. .."

Maybe that's it. I just had it in my mind that he had tunnel vision for his job and somewhere in there I thought that Eliot made it clear that Lydgate wouldn't care about stepping on toes when it came to his new fangled treatments and that he's already made some enemies but didn't care. So when he seemed to care about how his vote might be politically in his favor, I was just surprised. Given what I had known about his character, I wasn't expecting it.

Juliette wrote: "Sera wrote: "Lydgate's vote gives us insight into what motivates him - i.e., ambition versus morality or loyalty - it made me wonder what kind of bad karma that he was creating for himself. I feel ..."

I didn't expect it either, Juliette. I really like Lydgate and his progressive spirit.

I also find Lydgate to be a good comparison with Causabon. They are similar in a number of ways that may not be readily apparent on the surface.

I think Lydgate is rather impressionable. I think for all his learnedness he is kind of lost in social matters. It seems that he often doesn't understand where/when to pick his battles. I hope it details more about his earlier life somewhere in the novel.

Sera wrote: "Lydgate's vote gives us insight into what motivates him - i.e., ambition versus morality or loyalty -"

Mmmmmm. I'm not sure I agree totally with "ambition." That's part of it, but I think he really does, at this point in the book, have a scientific commitment to the betterment of the public health by bringing to the forefront a better way of treating fevers (no aspirin or other drugs then, fever was a major killer in a way we mostly don't experience today). I think he balanced the personal good of supporting his friend against the societal good of bringing to this provincial town the newest advances in medicine to the great benefit of the public. Yes, he has the ambition to be the person who does this, but I think it's as much an ambition to improve the world as it is personal ambition.

Sera wrote: "I also find Lydgate to be a good comparison with Causabon. They are similar in a number of ways that may not be readily apparent on the surface. "

That's a very interesting comment. I would love to have you expand on it a bit if you have the time to.

Everyman, I do have to agree with your refrences to Lydgate's "commitment to the betterment of the public health...." I also thing he is very passionate about medicine and health and that we may see is the driving force behind some of the actions he will take as we get to know him.

Everyman wrote: "Sera wrote: "Lydgate's vote gives us insight into what motivates him - i.e., ambition versus morality or loyalty -"

Mmmmmm. I'm not sure I agree totally with "ambition." That's part of it, but I..."

Upon further reflection "ambition" was probably the wrong word. A better phrase would be "idealistic pride". Lydgate selects Middlemarch as the place to pursue his achievements without consideration to the financial aspects of doing so, and alienating not only his fellow doctors but some of the patients in the community as well. He's suffers from the classic "big fish in a small pond" syndrome. In fact, there is a narrative by Eliot early on in the book that talks exactly to these points. I'll go back and try to find it on my Kindle.

Everyman wrote: "Sera wrote: "I also find Lydgate to be a good comparison with Causabon. They are similar in a number of ways that may not be readily apparent on the surface. "

That's a very interesting comment. ..."

At this point in the story, their research pursuits are very similar, albeit in different fields. There are further comparisons to be made but we'll need to wait until we reach those points of the book :)

I think Casaubon is frustrated for a number of reasons, partly because he's disappointed in not getting what he expected out of marriage, partly because he's annoyed with Ladislaw in general, but also now because he sees Ladislaw as a threat, though not something he would voice, of course. Ladislaw makes Mrs. Casaubon light up in a way that Mr. Casaubon should, but he doesn't have the same intellectual and life ambitions that Casaubon feels he should. I think there are a lot of underlying reasons as to why he is upset, but I very much doubt he would even recognize them for what they are, let alone express them.