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Is Grammar and Spelling Important in the Book?
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English being my second (or actually third) language, I'm especially sensitive about obvious grammar mistakes. There was a time I read a lot of fanfictions online, I judge whether a story is good and worth reading base on its grammar. I don't really care if the story is otherworldly, I just don't have enough energy in me to struggle through basic grammar mistakes (like using 'your' as you're, for some reason I hate it). I don't even understand how it's possible to make much simple mistakes nowadays, since every writing program like Office Word has a very effective grammar check. Reading grammar mistakes just makes me feel like the author is very unprofessional. Unless the story is written in certain accent, great examples being "The Help" and "Precious". I find it alarming though that children's books are written intentionally with misspellings.
My first language is Chinese, and in Chinese language there're tons of proverbs. Although most of these proverbs are ancient, they still pose a very important role in modern Chinese language and it's usually a sign that one's well educated if one masters those proverbs. In Hong Kong, a leading TV-channel looooves to use proverbs as their shows' titles, but intentionally "misspelling" them and in the process creating some kind of word-play which time to time, got to admit, is quite clever. However, teachers in Hong Kong have complained for a long time that students, even university students, forget the correct spelling of these proverbs because of those TV shows, along the way they also forget what those proverbs mean or the history behind them because of the misspelling. I admit that writing Chinese is not a walk in the park, but it shows how big an impact pop-culture can make.
I also find it irritating that ebooks tend to have more grammar errors. I even found a couple in the ebook "A Dance with Dragons" by George R.R. Martin.
So yes, what was the question again? :D Good grammar is very important in books. It's a defining factor of the author's competence.
Oh lord yes it is important. When there is a grammar/spelling/omitted/added word mistake it ruins my reading for a few pages. When I'm into a story and am imagining myself in the character(s) shoes a mistake pulls me out of the story.As for Junie B., I don't mind the way they talk. As long as you are supplementing that with books that have CORRECT grammar/spelling/etc. and you have proper ways to counteract it there is no problem. Kids get bombarded with things that are spelled correctly all the time (of course, with a margin of error-- after all we are only human)... textbooks, other fiction books, homework, internet, newspaper, advertisements, etc. that are spelled correctly. If you were a teacher and really worried about the spellings and grammar make it fun. Teach that week's spelling words as it relates to the ones in Junie B. Teach grammar as it relates to Junie B. In my opinion, anything kids enjoy, whether it be correct and proper or not, grab it and run, Run, RUN! You can always teach it the correct way and trust me, if you are incorporating something they enjoy they will be so much more receptive to learn the material.
Therefore, if the grammar/spelling was completely intentional and I know that, it doesn't bother me. However, when the writing is "formal", I don't like it at all.
Spelling, grammar and editing errors really pull me out of the story. It isn’t like I’m a Grammar Nazi or anything. I also happen to be the World’s Worst Speller! I was taught spelling during a ten year period where they gave up teaching phonetics and just used “route memorizations” (read it, close your eyes and visualize it, write it). It wasn’t until I went to college and took shorthand that I learned the basics of phonics, which greatly improved my spelling. That, and taking Medical Terminology, which is all about root words and connecting words, etc. Anyhoo… I just read a book that caught me and wouldn’t let go; nevertheless, it was atrociously edited. While I usually give some leeway, there were too many errors! So much so that I had to re-read sentences to make sure I understood the sentences correctly. This is Never A Good Thing. Still, that author had that special ability to grab the reader. I understand now she had hired someone to edit.
At first I wanted to say, “No. Kids should NOT be exposed to incorrect spelling, grammar, etc. in school.” However, I don’t teach young children and I haven’t read the Junnie B books, so take that into consideration. In addition, I imagine that is part of why the kids like them so much – they know, on some level, that the spelling and grammar are wrong, and this makes it fun for them.
If the poor grammar is part of a character's inflection or dialect then I am willing to overlook it. If the author is missing rather obscure grammar rules then I don't mind that either. But if these are obviously spelling and grammar errors that the average reader would notice then it bothers me. Every book, no matter how well edited, is going to have a spelling or grammar error here and there and I will not look poorly on a book for that. But when it is obvious that the author or publisher just didn't edit it properly then I look at it as unprofessional. It doesn't matter to me whether its self published or not, if you expect me to spend my hard earned cash on your book then you should be editing it like a professional. One perfect example....I read an ebook recently that was so awful on the grammar and spelling I had a hard time reading it. There were an average of 2-3 spelling errors or grammar error per page! The author did not properly use "their" verus "there" a single time in the whole book. These sorts of examples were rampant in the whole book and I eventually had to just put it down before it made my eyes bleed. But then when I looked at the hardcover edition of the same book...it was perfectly fine. So, did the author or publisher just not bother with editing the ebook? Whatever the problem was, I couldn't even finish it.
In the book I read recently a lot of people said that an editor would have ruined the book by making her change not only the spelling and grammar, but also the content to make it more commercially acceptable. I could count the run-on sentences are part of the character’s personality. Still, there was much more. To me there were just so many errors that it was as if the writer just went on a "free flow" writing spree and never went back to re-read her own work.
A HUGE turn-off (if you all allow me to call it that). I have stopped reading books because I found some mistake on spelling or grammar. I agree with Emily, it gives the impression that the author is unproffessional. English is my third language and I still hate it when I don't know how a word is written and I feel unconfortable posting something even in casual threads like that. And it bothers me very much that people born and raised in the UK or USA can't see the difference between "you're" and "your", or "he's" and "his", or (yes, I've seen that too) "I would have gone" and "I would of gone". Publishing a book, even if it's self-published, means that at least one other person has read it, right? A publisher or a good friend. Finding such mistakes in books, means that at least two people involved with a BOOK don't know how to write. If I was to publish a book, even self-publish it, I would have it read first by someone who could easily trace mistakes. Otherwise, even if the story is great, the whole work seems sloppy.
That's a very nice discussion topic, Niq. It brings other matters on the syrface, too. I'm from Greece and greek is probably one of the most difficult languages in the world. But it's really fascinating, because every word has its spelling for a reason that maybe goes back thousands of years in the history of Greece.
A very troubling matter nowadays is that more and more people don't know how to spell words. Can you imagine someone that has finished elementary school, middle school, high school and has a university degree not knowing how to write a formal letter? Can you believe that when I was in college I, at 20 years old, pointed out spelling mistakes at proffessors of 50 and 60 years old? It's very frustrating...
Anyway, I think I overdid it a bit with my answer... :P To sum it up, I find mistakes printed in books unproffessional and if intentional they should in some way be pointed out.
EDIT: Sorry for an mistakes I might have made!
Stefani wrote: "If the poor grammar is part of a character's inflection or dialect then I am willing to overlook it. If the author is missing rather obscure grammar rules then I don't mind that either. But if thes..."So I don't get it. I thought they use the same text for printing actual books and ebooks...
Eek! Found an error in one of my posts. LOL!
Spelling and grammar errors make me insane, but I think that, as much as anything, it's due to my having attended a very old-world elementary school where grammar and spelling each was its own class and they were extremely rigid about the whole thing. ("Penmanship" was its own class too. Seriously. We learned to write with italic pens that required inkwells or ink cartridges. I had to teach myself cursive when I entered high school. But I digress.) As others have mentioned, those kinds of errors distract me from the story and make me feel as if the author doesn't care enough about his or her craft to strive for excellence. (I know this is partly the editor's job too, but still.) I'm even less forgiving in these days of spell-check.While I personally am frustrated with "intentional" misspellings or poor grammar in children's books, I've actually found a silver lining with some of them. When I was suffering through the "Captain Underpants" books with my son (who couldn't put them down), I was heartened to watch him go through and point out all of the spelling mistakes that the main characters were making. So in a sense, it was a learning opportunity.
Lisa Kay wrote: "Eek! Found an error in one of my posts. LOL!"DETENTION!!!
If there is an occasional error, I can forgive and continue reading. It is the books, where 6 words out of 10 are misspelled that bother me. Grammar doesn't bother me much, maybe because I am awful at it. :D
I know when they first went LIVE with some eBooks there were spelling errors in them that were not in the "dead tree versions" - it was due to less sophisticated programming which actually changed words! A lot of those explanations have since been corrected.
Occasional errors don't bother me too much. I'm not sure I've read a book that didn't have at least one error somewhere in it. Considering how much I read, well... Many errors make the work look unprofessional and sloppy. Doesn't matter to me if it comes from a reputable publishing house or is self-pub.
As far as grammar and spell check goes...those aren't 100% reliable and shouldn't be counted on to find all the mistakes. 'There' 'their' and 'they're' are all spelled correctly according to spell check, but they're not interchangeable when used in a sentence.
Emily wrote: "So I don't get it. I thought they use the same text for printing actual books and ebooks... For most ebooks now it is the same text. But when ebooks first started the author may have already had the book out for a year or more, and most publishers didn't have digital copies of those lying around so the text had to be recreated. Now that ebooks have been around awhile, this is getting a lot better. That was just my most grievous example lol.
You still find formatting errors in ebooks, because the text has to be converted into the proper formatting for ebooks..and that can cause problems with punctuation, capitalization, and things of that nature.
It's not a huge issue unless there are many issues. I have caught errors in NY Times Bestselling authors, and that annoys me because the major publishing companies have the resources to do better. I tend to be more tolerant in small press/indie markets because I think it is harder to get really good proofreading services in those cases.
Niq wrote: "Regarding proper grammar and spelling, some could argue that as long as children are reading, grammar and spelling are not important in books targeted towards them."Maybe this is the cause of the whole problem itself? I don't think spelling and grammar are taught heavily enough in schools here in America as it is and it's a great disservice to children to not encourage good spelling and use of proper grammar.
As for the original question, I think it is extremely important that an author correctly spells and uses good grammar. I will always knock off a point or two for a book that's written poorly (in regards to spelling and grammar).
I feel this same way even outside of the literary world. I get very annoyed in general when anyone misspells words or uses bad grammar. It's normal to misspell a word here or there, but to do so often is pitiful, especially if you're misspelling words from your native language. I mean, you have your entire life to master it and it's not really that difficult.
Nice to see the responses. :) I'm sorry I cannot respond to all of them.I remember the Captain Underpants books. Those too were (are?) very popular with kids. I was placed in the library and in a K-1 combination class. Those books were always tattered. lol
I kind of agree with Matt in that I don't think spelling and grammar are being taught well enough in schools as evidenced by the common grammar and spelling errors we encounter in books and in our written (both formal and informal) communication. I don't consider myself a Grammar Nazi either, but if I have to stop and reread something, or if it's a particular pet peeve of mine (subjective pronoun in the objective case), or if seeing that same error over and over in a book is driving me up the wall, then I have a problem.
Otl1987, yia-sas! I would love to learn the Greek language. I love how the Greek alphabet looks. hehe. I studied in Athens for a summer years ago, and sat in on the Elementary 1 class (We were only allowed to take 2 classes. I took Greek Drama and Ancient Greek Archaeology to fulfill my major requirements). I found it a bit difficult, mostly in terms of pronunciation and spelling. This was because I had taken a year of Attic Greek a year or so before that summer, and a year of Homeric Greek in high school. The Ancient Greek background definitely confused me. ^_^ *sigh* I only remember 4 words from that course now: yia-sas, yia-sou, thelo and afto. And to think that I was once able to write a paragraph about myself for the final exam, even if I did write simplistic sentences such as "I am a girl." (LOL! My teacher really laughed at that. He was cool.)
Lavinia, is it really very old-world of the elementary school if grammar and spelling are separate classes? My elementary school was like that. But then again, I *did* attend a Catholic school. We had Spelling, and we had Language Arts. We didn't have Penmanship after 2nd grade, I think, once we learned to write cursive. They were among my best subjects with Science, Math and Social Studies being my worst. *sigh* Unfortunately, my parents never cared about the A+ I got in Spelling and Language Arts. They thought math, science and social studies were more important. Times, I don't think they have been a-changing. lol
I wish I could remember the Language Arts textbook(s) I'd used. I don't trust the newer ones that are being published these days.
Niq wrote: "Lavinia, is it really very old-world of the elementary school if grammar and spelling are separate classes?"I probably should have said that it *seemed* old-world compared to a) everyone else I knew at the time (I'm almost 45, so this was 35 years ago) and certainly compared to b) my son's experience today (he's 10 and goes to a strong independent school, but spelling and grammar are part of "literacy"). My elementary school was a very traditional Episcopal school (Latin in 7th and 8th grades, to go along with the penmanship!) - so maybe it's the parochial schools that worried more about these topics. :)
It must be! I had Latin in 5th - 8th grade. :D The school discontinued Spanish by my year, which would have been more useful. At least, I would have been able to take AP Spanish by senior year then. I enjoyed Latin, though, enough to continue it in high school and in college. :)
My four kids all went to a strict catholic school in New Orleans which did a great job of teaching grammar. They now text in complete sentences with proper grammar and my son is a Greek and Roman Studies major in college and has received a fellowship in spoken latin. We are all typo freaks and drive people crazy correcting mistakes in grammar. ( They also manage to be pretty cool!)I can understand the popularity of books like Junie B. Jones and Captain Underpants and I won't predict the end of the world as we know it if kids read these, but they should definitely be encouraged to read more complex books as well. Actually, being read to should be compulsory in families. In our family, I banned the "Disneyification" of classics. Reading or being read complex sentences forces the brain to work harder than being fed those short, simple sentences. It's like only eating processed food instead of learning to savor more complex flavors and textures.
Poor grammar in the proper context is acceptable. Grammatical mistakes in a book due to poor writing or editing is completely unacceptable and extremely annoying, in my opinion. I read almost all my books on the nook now, and so many by indie authors have been poorly edited. It's so frustrating.
You have a very good point, Leslie. Context is important.
I can't help but notice most errors in books but I don't let them put me off the rating or quality of the book. Just poor or lazy editing from the publishing company, however.
I have seen people say that grammar and spelling are not that important to them when they read. Some people argue that those who nitpick about grammar and/or spelling should stop nitpicking and just enjoying the "good story". Some are willing to be more lenient on self-pub books, for reasons I believe are self-explanatory.
Regarding proper grammar and spelling, some could argue that as long as children are reading, grammar and spelling are not important in books targeted towards them. Some might (and I believe have) argue(d) that proper spelling is not important as long as the first and last letter of the word is correct.
The reason I brought up the proper grammar and spelling in kids' books question is because today I saw a kid reading a Junie B. Jones book. Junie B. Jones is a fun series targeted for young readers, K - 2nd or 3rd grade. It's pretty popular among girls, and even boys. I first learned of this nearly 10 years ago when I was tutoring in an elementary school. The kids LOVED this series, and wanted the books to be read to them.
I HATED it. I hated reading a Junie B. Jones book to them. Why? Because there was improper grammar and spelling which I believe was done intentionally to imitate the voice and style of a young reader. I found myself stumbling over misspelled words as I read aloud. I got it that the author may have wanted her young readers to relate better with Junie B. Jones, that she may have felt that as long as children read and enjoyed the story, it is okay, but in a sense, wouldn't putting these common spelling and grammar errors in a book reinforce the errors in the kids' minds?
So, what do you think? Agree or disagree?