The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of February 20th - February 26th, we are reading the Introduction, Book the Second (I, II, II, IV) of A Tale of Two Cities.

The third week's reading assignment is:

Week Three: February 20th - February 26th (2012)::

Week Three - February 20 - February 26
(pages 61-92)
Book the Second—the Golden Thread
I. Five Years Later 61
II. A Sight 67
III. A Disappointment 73
IV. Congratulatory 86

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other books.

This book was kicked off on February 6th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Powell's and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. And to make things even easier; this book is available "free" on line as either an ebook download or an audiobook.This weekly thread will be opened up either during the weekend before or on February 20th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Becky will be leading this discussion. But since this is Becky's first time moderating a book in the History Book Club; Bentley will be co-moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Charles Dickens

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

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http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

by Charles Dickens

Chapter Overviews and Summaries
Book the Second: The Golden Thread

Chapter 1 - Five Years Later:

Setting - 1780 London and a description of Tellson’s Bank by Temple Bar.

Jerry Cruncher stands outside Tellson’s where he works as an "odd-job man" and messenger. Cruncher lives with his wife and son in an apartment in a lower-class area where they argue about her praying and Cruncher gets rather abusive. His son, young Jerry, works with his father. As Cruncher goes off on a job, young Jerry waits at the bank.

Chapter 2 - A Sight:

A Tellson clerk tells Cruncher to take a note to Lorry in the court house and to wait for the reply.

Cruncher goes to the court house and gives the note to the door-keeper who lets him in. Someone is being tried for treason. Charles Darnay has pleaded "Not Guilty" to these charges.

In the courtroom Charles sees a young lady of about 20 and an older gentleman who are witnesses against the prisoner.


Chapter 3 - A Disappointment:

Attorney-General opens the case saying Darnay is a spy and there is proof. He calls on the jury to find the prisoner guilty. The Solicitor-General examines a gentleman named John Barsad, also examined are Darnay's servant, Roger Cly, Jarvis Lorry, Miss Manette and her father.

The "wigged gentleman" writes a note and tosses it to the defense council who looks carefully at the prisoner and the man who tossed the note. The two men are almost identical. Stryver changes tactics and presents an alternative case. Both sides close, the jury considers, and the others wait.

Cruncher stays so he can take his reply note from Lorry. Darnay expects the worst from the jury. The note to Cruncher says acquitted.

Chapter 4 - Congratulatory:

Darnay is released. He kisses Lucie's hand and thanks Mr. Stryver. Lucie sees that Doctor Manette is worn out and they leave in a coach. Stryver and Lorry discuss business and leave to return to work. Finally Carton and Darnay are alone. They go to eat, Darnay thanks Carton but Carton is bitter.

So the year is now 1780 and ...

"Tellson’s Bank by Temple Bar was an old-fashioned place, even in the year one thousand seven hundred and eighty. It was very small, very dark, very ugly, very incommodious. It was an old-fashioned place, moreover, in the moral attribute that the partners in the House were proud of its smallness, proud of its darkness, proud of its ugliness, proud of its incommodiousness. ... Tellson’s (they said) wanted no elbow-room, Tellson’s wanted no light, Tellson’s wanted no embellishment. Noakes and Co.’s might, or Snooks Brothers’ might; but Tellson’s, thank Heaven!

Tellson's could almost be a character the way Dickens has lightly personified it. And a few sentences later he goes further, "the House" develops limbs!

"If your business necessitated your seeing 'the House,' you were put into a species of Condemned Hold at the back, where you meditated on a misspent life, until the House came with its hands in its pockets, and you could hardly blink at it in the dismal twilight. Your money came out of, or went into, wormy old wooden drawers, particles of which flew up your nose and down your throat when they were opened and shut."

There may be more incidences of personification - what do you find?

And what do you think? Is the use of personification effective in putting distinct impressions of the bank into your mind? What other characteristics does Tellson's have? Is Dickens guilty of a bit of "over-writing" here?

Fwiw, a Fleet Street based bank called Child and Company was Dickens' model for Tellson's. Child & Co is a very old bank, said to have been started by a goldsmith in the 17th century.

Hi Becky, I did not catch that personification when reading it myself earlier.

Just fishing around here, but I wonder if the personification gives strength of image to the traditions and manners of doing things that have spanned generations.

The bank building becomes a representation or reminder to the people around it of the customary ways of thinking and behaving when doing their banking. Those customs take on a perceived life of their own and the physical symbols, like main street of one's hometown, are very natural to now represent through personification.

Good catch on your part, and you got me thinking about this now, so thank you!

Paul

Yes, it seems to me also that Tellson's, in all it's unchanging ways, is definitely a symbol of old, maybe ancient, customs and power.

And it seems as though Tellson's Bank is almost a religious site, a house of worship in that Dickens used the words
" you were put into a species of Condemned Hold at the back, where you meditated on a misspent life..." . That sounds like a church confessional or purgatory or a more general place of personal reflection if you "meditate on a misspent life" there. Except in the case of Tellson's only material assets are considered.

I love his gentle mockery.

I have to agree that Becky saw the Tellson Bank personality as a part of this developing story.

Overall as we move towards building a story here though I must note that all the characters are being developed very uniquely. All seem to be strong, with the exception of Jerry’s wife I think, and all are different as well mostly not being afraid to be who they are.

Vince wrote: "I have to agree that Becky saw the Tellson Bank personality as a part of this developing story.

Overall as we move towards building a story here though I must note that all the characters are be..."

It could be said that Sydney Carton is afraid to be himself. Perhaps,he is strong in his own convinctions, but unwilling to become involved in the lives of others. In the Syllabus, Becky comments that Dickens once played Carton in an amateur production. Perhaps, Dickens feels some affinity with Carton.

Paul wrote: "I love his gentle mockery."

You bet! It's a kind of mockery of the gothic elements as well as the bank and society. I understand Dickens loved gothic lit since childhood but it had gone out of fashion when he was writing. Anyway, there's all the dark night of mist and fear in the prior chapters and then here comes the "house of banking" with hands - eeks!

Vince wrote: "All seem to be strong, with the exception of Jerry’s wife I think, and all are different as well mostly not being afraid to be who they are. "

And Jerry Cruncher! What in the world are we to make of Jerry Cruncher and family?

Paul wrote: "Just fishing around here, but I wonder if the personification gives strength of image to the traditions and manners of doing things that have spanned generations. ..."

Yes, absolutely, I saw this too, but by his tone, Dickens is not portraying it in a positive light. Tellson's is like an entity. I'm not sure if any of you are Star Trek fans, but it reminded me of The Borg ...... "we will assimilate you; resistance is futile ..." :-D In the bank nothing changes, everything is the same and if anything seems different, it is forced to conform.

" ..... When they took a young man into Tellson's London house, they hid him somewhere till he was old. They kept him in a dark place, like a cheese, until he had the full Tellson flavour and blue-mould upon him. Then only was he permitted to be seen, ......"

What a rich, vivid description!!! Dickens description brings to mind a very old stagnancy. Even the odd-job man who is "tolerated" by Tellson's takes on some of its dreary sameness: " .... and then he was represented by his son: a grisly urchin of twelve, who was his express image ..." Again, nothing can be new or different.


I actually liked Mrs. Cruncher, Jerry's wife. She keeps their house tidy, has a deep faith in God and does not respond to her husband's bad mood and harsh words. So far she shows an admirable character.

Chapter 1:
"Any one of these partners would have disinherited his son on the question of rebuilding Tellson's. In this respect, the house was much on a par with the Country; which did very often disinherit its sons for suggesting improvements in laws and customs that had long been highly objectionable, but were only the more respectable."

This paragraph illustrates one of the reasons Dickens drives me a little nuts. I know Victor Hugo, for example, has been accused of explaining too much (so much so, sometimes whole chapters are removed from his works), but Dickens at times seems to be writing to himself. :-Z How did the Country disinherit its sons? What laws and customs? Why were they objectionable? He doesn't have to explain in detail, but at least give the readers a hint ........ :-P

Becky wrote: "And Jerry Cruncher! What in the world are we to make of Jerry Cruncher and family? .."

Don't forget Jerry Cruncher's mysteriously muddy boots and rusty hands .....

Hey Cleo

I think he is using hyperbole here. It is not seriously stated, but tongue-in-cheek, figure of speech, right? The country of England did not literally do as said.

As an example of "objectionable", the bank is described as being rather unpleasant to look upon. Still, the notion of changing it would be near heresy.

What you are seeing here is his gentle mockery again. He does it a lot.

Cleo wrote: "Don't forget Jerry Cruncher's mysteriously muddy boots and rusty hands ....."

Poor Jerry - stuck with his wife (the aggravator) who is going to pray him out of business and their child out of food - the thing is that he believes she can. I think he really is a bit on the religious side.

“What,” said Mr. Cruncher, varying his apostrophe after missing his mark—“what are you up to, Aggerawayter?”

“I was only saying my prayers.”

“Saying your prayers! You’re a nice woman! What do you mean by flopping yourself down and praying agin me?”

“I was not praying against you; I was praying for you.”

“You weren’t. And if you were, I won’t be took the liberty with. Here! your mother’s a nice woman, young Jerry, going a praying agin your father’s prosperity. You’ve got a dutiful mother, you have, my son. You’ve got a religious mother, you have, my boy: going and flopping herself down, and praying that the bread-and-butter may be snatched out of the mouth of her only child. "

Oh that is just too funny -

Cleo wrote: "Chapter 1:
"Any one of these partners would have disinherited his son on the question of rebuilding Tellson's. In this respect, the house was much on a par with the Country; which did very oft..."

"Disinherit its sons" may refer to immigration to the New World. Things have to get pretty desparate before a young man, with or without his family, leaves civilized England for a land often portrayed as full of savages and wild beasts.

Vince wrote: "I have to agree that Becky saw the Tellson Bank personality as a part of this developing story.

Overall as we move towards building a story here though I must note that all the characters are be..."

Jerry's wife is the cliche' long-suffering wife of Victorian lit. She keeps the family together so that her son can have a better life. Those around the Defarges have run out of options: "If you can't out, get even" seems to be their motto. Jerry's son has an outside chance at upward mobility.

Becky wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Don't forget Jerry Cruncher's mysteriously muddy boots and rusty hands ....."

Poor Jerry - stuck with his wife (the aggravator) who is going to pray him out of business and their chi..."

I agree, if Jerry did not believe in some higher power, he would see his wife's prayers as useless. Jerry's sermon might be a case of projecting his feelings of guilt or inadequecy on his wife and God by accusing them both of plotting against him. I think that his image of his 'father in heaven' reflects his earthly father, who denied him the moral support that he denies his own family.

Scott wrote: "I think that his image of his 'father in heaven' reflects his earthly father, who denied him the moral support that he denies his own family."

Perhaps not too much unlike Dickens' relationship with his own father?

Becky wrote: "And in 1780 a chunk of the New World, the English colonies, was at war with the British for independence. Uncivilized and revolutionary - NOT something Tellson's would condone in the slightest. T..."

One of the reasons for the American Revolution was that so many talented people had left England in the preceding 50 years, because they saw no future in England. After the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 ended, the exodus would continue from all over the world. A Tale of Two Cities took place during those years when one way to a better life--the New World--was out of the reach of most.

Paul wrote: "Hey Cleo

I think he is using hyperbole here. It is not seriously stated, but tongue-in-cheek, figure of speech, right? The country of England did not literally do as said.

As an example of "o..."

Thanks for trying to help me out, Paul! :-) I wasn't really speaking specifics (although any information helps), my comments were born more from a general frustration with Dickens style at times; if he were more clear with his statements, it would help the reader "merge" more with the story. I think I'm simply more used to Hugo and Tolstoy who are very clear with their background information. Even so, I can understand that Dickens occasional tendency to be obscure perhaps adds to his charm for some.

Scott wrote: "I agree, if Jerry did not believe in some higher power, he would see his wife's prayers as useless. Jerry's sermon might be a case of projecting his feelings of guilt or inadequecy on his wife and God by accusing them both of plotting against him. I think that his image of his 'father in heaven' reflects his earthly father, who denied him the moral support that he denies his own family......

Ah, thanks for this comment, Scott. I like the connection ...

I think the bank's age, and adherence to tradition give it stability/credibility or respectability? The last would have been important in Victorian England..,and that's why it is personified- it's an entity in itself :)

Even I love his "gentle mockery". He definitely over-writes, even for a Victorian author, many of whom overwrote- I don't know whether it is self-indulgence or because his works were serialised,this is why I hated his books as a kid, because I was so impatient to get on with the story. Now I just sit back and enjoy the descriptions- what I like is that so far he has mainly described various cityscapes, or things that made up the life of people in those days,like the stagecoach, or furniture, or the courtroom, or funny little cameos like Mrs. Cruncher, poor woman :). Rather than describe nature, which must be looking pretty much the same now.
By the way, I find myself unable to stand Lucie Manette. I don't know why.Why did she have to cry in the courtroom saying she hoped she hadn't hurt the prisoner by her evidence when she jolly well knew she had? Either she should have lied ( yeah yeah I know perjury is a criminal offence) or not cried. What a little idiot.
I guess she is to much the Victorian stereotype of the perfect woman/angel in the house to be interesting? Dickens' side characters are far better and more humorously developed somehow.
I like Scott's analysis. I wonder what his son would turn out to be like

Oh my Lucie is a totally bizarre character to us today, she's so sweet and saintly. And I think if this story were to have been written today (as historical fiction) Lucie would be significantly different. I think she was Dickens' ideal woman - the homemaker, weaker, maybe a bit less intelligent, beautiful, the feminine ideal of VIctorian England?

The other women in this book aren't so pure - Madame Defarge (but she's French), Mrs. Cruncher, the red-haired strong woman from Chapter 4 in Book 1 - but if I remember correctly, many of his heroines do have this type of idealized femininity.

To me Lucie seems to represent home and hearth and England's virtue in some way.

What do you all think?

Scott wrote: "Becky wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Don't forget Jerry Cruncher's mysteriously muddy boots and rusty hands ....."

Poor Jerry - stuck with his wife (the aggravator) who is going to pray him out of busine..."

This is one of Dickens' great comic moments, but I have to agree with Scott, I think Jerry definitely uses his wife a convenient scapegoat for his own feelings of inadequacy.

How about Jerry Jr.? He's quite "the dickens" isn't he, goading his mother like that?


" In the meantime, his son, whose head was garnished with tenderer spikes, and whose young eyes stood close by one another, as his father’s did, kept the required watch upon his mother. He greatly disturbed that poor woman at intervals, by darting out of his sleeping closet, where he made his toilet, with a suppressed cry of “You are going to flop, mother.—Halloa, father!” and, after raising this fictitious alarm, darting in again with an undutiful grin.

Aparajita wrote: "I think the bank's age, and adherence to tradition give it stability/credibility or respectability? The last would have been important in Victorian England..,and that's why it is personified- it's ..."

I will agree that likely the wordiness is a result of the serialization. But the descriptions are like detailed paintings or maybe even photos.

I also think that some of the repetition might be bringing the details back to the reader who would have had a gap in time between episodes.

I also would note that for a serialized work - probably reaching masses of people, the vocabulary is not simple but a bit sophisticated (thankfully my Kindle has a built in dictionary) - yet even with this style he was so successful.

Moving along a bit - from Chapter 2 of Book 2: (to "spile a man" is to "spoil" him - drain the stomach so he's worthless to grave-robbers)

“I suppose they’ll be trying Forgeries this morning?”

“Treason!”

“That’s quartering,” said Jerry. “Barbarous!”

“It is the law,” remarked the ancient clerk, turning his surprised spectacles upon him. “It is the law.”

“It’s hard in the law to spile a man, I think. It's hard enough to kill him, but it’s wery hard to spile him, sir.”

“Not at all,” retained the ancient clerk. “Speak well of the law. Take care of your chest and voice, my good friend, and leave the law to take care of itself. I give you that advice.”

“It’s the damp, sir, what settles on my chest and voice,” said Jerry. “I leave you to judge what a damp way of earning a living mine is.”

“Well, well,” said the old clerk; “we all have our various ways of gaining a livelihood. Some of us have damp ways, and some of us have dry ways. Here is the letter. Go along.”

This little snip gives some insight into Dickens' use of dialect and social class. The clerk speaks much more formally than Jerry and they refer to their ways of "gaining a livelihood." But they both know about quartering and "spiling."

Any favorite or otherwise good examples of dialect and/or social class (up through Chapter 4 in this Book)?

Personally, I really enjoy a good writer of dialect and get a kick out of reading some of it out loud. Sometimes it makes more sense when I do that with heavy dialect.

Becky wrote: "Oh my Lucie is a totally bizarre character to us today, she's so sweet and saintly. And I think if this story were to have been written today (as historical fiction) Lucie would be significantl..."
Another woman in the story is Miss Pross. What is her social connectoon with Lucie; landlady or another resident of the same building? Dickens says that Miss Pross has appointed herself to watch over Lucie. The words 'matronly' and 'spinster' comes to my mind. In every society, there are more women than men. We now know that this is a product of genetics. But why is she single? In Victorian times, such an independent lady, would seem threathening to many men.

Becky wrote: "Moving along a bit - from Chapter 2 of Book 2: (to "spile a man" is to "spoil" him - drain the stomach so he's worthless to grave-robbers)

“I suppose they’ll be trying Forgeries this morning?”..."
How does 'spiling' spoil a body for gravediggers, unless it contaminated the rest of the organs?

In Book 2, Ch. 4, we get inside the head of Sydney Carton. Today, we might use the words neurotic, self-conflicted, even schzophrenic. He tells Darney that he helped him with his trial, but prefers to remain in the background, unrewarded.
After he has insulted Darney into parting company with him, Sydney has a two-way conversation with himself about his attitude towards Darney. One side of the conversatiton derides Darney, while the other side retorts that Sydney is jealous of Darnay because Sydney has the ability to become a successful man like Darney, but refuses to try. I sensed a tone of self-righteous and condescendence in Sydney's words to Darney and with himself. Sydney is of the opinion that he is above the fray, in that everyone has an alterior motive, except poor, self-sacrificing Sydney.

Scott wrote: "Becky wrote: "Another woman in the story is Miss Pross. What is her social connectoon with Lucie; landlady or another resident of the same building? Dickens says that Miss Pross has appointed herself to watch over Lucie...."

Those are really great questions, but I think we'll have to wait and see what transpires. (In my own words, "no spoilers.") (heh)

Scott wrote: "How does 'spiling' spoil a body for gravediggers, unless it contaminated the rest of the organs?"

Again, I think we have to wait for the answers. Dickens does this foreshadowing business quite a lot. Sorry.

Scott wrote: "In Book 2, Ch. 4, we get inside the head of Sydney Carton. Today, we might use the words neurotic, self-conflicted, even schzophrenic. He tells Darney that he helped him with his trial, but prefers..."

LOL! You are so right! I had assumed he was just a standard drunk, an underachiever, but there are more useful terms. Thanks! :-)

Ruthbie wrote: "Scott wrote: "Becky wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Don't forget Jerry Cruncher's mysteriously muddy boots and rusty hands ....."

Poor Jerry - stuck with his wife (the aggravator) who is going to pray him..."

I agree with Scott too and Ruthbie-- Jerry Cruncher has feelings of inadequacy...a chip on his shoulder so to speak...he has a feeling that everyone is out to get him including his wife. I think he takes his stresses out on her because he feels he has no control ( I think Becky's quote above Chapter 2 of book 2 talk about how pursuing one's livelihood during such a time was scary business and this stressed Cruncher out.) Also, an example of inadequacy comes when he is talking about upcoming trial and is afraid he'll make a mess of things...He is in a battle of see no evil, hear no evil ( even though him and his son are rather mean and brutish he does seem bothered by the quartering talk--thus demonstrating his boldness comes from inadequacy not pure meanness), but also he has the responsibility of trying to make a living so he pushes on....? Cruncher's treatment of his wife, and his son bullying the amiable boys (I. Five years Later) stems from fear but also his social class (trying to survive or even attempt to get ahead in such a random/unfair world.)

I am way behind with this book Becky. Sorry. Hope to catch up.

Scott wrote: "Becky wrote: "Moving along a bit - from Chapter 2 of Book 2: (to "spile a man" is to "spoil" him - drain the stomach so he's worthless to grave-robbers)

“I suppose they’ll be trying Forgerie..."

Scott, tried to look this up but was unable to find out why this was done? Could the emptying of the stomach be meant figuratively--empty = useless. I'm sure this is not the case and it was a practice done, but could not find this. Everywhere I looked it said during this time prisoners/ those executed were delivered to medical science and used for medical research so they would not be buried anyway? Unless the medical community were considered grave robbers--and they needed the contents of the stomach for whatever reason? I don't know. Interested and confused by that whole thing.

It's pretty well explained later in the book - ( no spoilers here so) ... It is interesting though - at least it was to me.

Dickens is hard with all the foreshadowing--I never know if I have missed something or if I should look for it later! Thanks Becky look forward to reading about it. :)

It's already up if you're ready for it - see the next installments here:

http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/8...
Scroll down to "A Tale of Two Cities" and look for the section you want.

We're up to Chapters 14-17 now but you can read through the messages if you want. We covered the grave and body issue this last week! :-)

Becky wrote: "It's already up if you're ready for it - see the next installments here:

http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/8...
Scroll down to "A Tale of Two Cities" and look for the sec..."

Thanks Becky...I read a great deal last night and am almost caught up. Thank you for the link! I have learned a lot about myself while reading this--I have a hard time dealing with suspense! haha.

Scott wrote: "In Book 2, Ch. 4, we get inside the head of Sydney Carton. Today, we might use the words neurotic, self-conflicted, even schzophrenic. He tells Darney that he helped him with his trial, but prefers..."

Have you read Dickens's Our Mutual Friend? Carlton reminds me very much of Eugene Wrayburn in that book. Both Carlton and Wrayburn seem to me to be among the most "modern" men in Victorian fiction - alienated and drifting, yet yearning for something better.

by Charles Dickens

You know I should really read more Dickens - I've read maybe half of his important books but not the early ones - prior to A Christmas Carol and not the last two.

and last two:

& - all by Charles Dickens