A Game of Thrones discussion

I've read all the books to date. I am frustrated when I hear all the projects Martin is involved in other than just finishing this series. I really lack confidence that he will finish it, just like Robert Jordan was not able to finish the Dragon Reborn series before he passed away.
He needs to get his priorities straight.

I have to agree. I have the same thought and it's a shame because he really has quite an epic story to tell.

Honestly, how do you even know that he has an ending planned at all? It wouldn't surprise me that, if he does plan to have an ending, it would end on a cliffhanger.

It was Game Of Thrones that made it so I only read series that have been completed. It is just too frustrating.

I got through a Feast For Crows before I found out that there weren't anymore books. Two years later, finally Dance with Dragons. Part of me thinks he may have written himself over his head. It can't be easy to keep such a cast of characters straight.

I've heard GRR Martin talk about how he's had a destination for his characters since the beginning, but the journey is created as the books come out.

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05...

Love that. The song that it inspired is awesome, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6a1y1...

As consumers of what Martin is producing, we are allowed to question the schedule of production. Nobody was being rude about it here so Niel Gaiman's quotes about Martin not being our bitch are a bit exaggerated.

No, Martin doesn't owe his readers anything (except maybe some gratitude for making him wealthy and famous) but he and other authors need to realize that criticism is a part of providing goods and services for others - art included!

Davytron wrote: "Nobody was being rude about it here so Niel Gaiman's quotes about Martin not being our bitch are a bit exaggerated."

Not exaggerated, people have been bitching about this for a long time to GRR Martin, and it's not fair to him, it's not just criticism, it's not just providing goods and services. You can't put a demand on an artists output, you are putting needless pressure on an author, especially one with a story that's set in a complex world, with an intricate plot, and a huge, rich array of characters, each with prominent roles in the plot, and each with it's own history to stay consistent with. To do this takes care, and lots of time to do it.

I also wish he'd hurry up a bit. I understand that it must take a long time but whenever I log on to his website I just see long, rambling posts about baseball games. I couldn't care less about baseball, but I really wish he'd put his energies into getting the books written.

I too am disappointed by the knowledge that the next books have not been forthcoming, because I enjoy the series. However, I only began reading the series last year, and have not read the latest book since I know it will not be the end in any case. I recently read a history of Scotland and was reminded of the twists and turns in real life that Martin captures so well in this series. In real history, the plot never reaches a conclusion, so if this series doesn't reach it's end, I'll be content to settle for its analogy with the unfinished story of history. And a question: will closure match the enjoyment of the journey if and when we get there?

Probably not. It's been an incredible journey so far. I understand the comments about not rushing the artist or putting unfair demands. He certainly has earned the right to do as he pleases. As a fan, my only point is that with a more steady release my frustration would be lessoned. Although in a twisted kind of way, it does make his releases exciting.

The point is, it's okay to really want the series to come out quicker, even to the point of being annoyed and frustrated when output is slow, because it shows how much you enjoy what's been written so far and you are just that excited for more, but to be annoyed and frustrated at GRR Martin is illogical, inconsiderate, selfish, and petty.

Will wrote: "The point is, it's okay to really want the series to come out quicker, even to the point of being annoyed and frustrated when output is slow, because it shows how much you enjoy what's been written..."

Agreed. If he did churn out the books faster, I doubt they'd be as intricate or as well written as they usually are anyway. I value quality over quantity. I mean, look at Charlainne Harris. She writes a Sookie book yearly and they've become so shitty cause she doesn't take the time to develop a good story or develop her characters. I'd hate to see Martin's books to go down the same route just because fans are getting angry with him for not writing fast enough.

If the next book isn't the conclusion or at least the last in the series, I probably won't read it. But then again, I was less than impressed by the AFfC and ADwD... At the same time, I won't waste my time getting bent out of shape if the next volume(s) of the series are slow to come out, or don't come out at all. There are a lot of books to read in the world!

Steven wrote: "If the next book isn't the conclusion or at least the last in the series, I probably won't read it."

It's been known for a while that Martin plans, at minimum, two more books in the series.

food for thought here: but....
Isn't it a privilege to know the author of a wonderful, deep, intricate series. Just think, while we complain about the time it take to write the books -our kids and grand-kids and great grand kids are going to have the full series and be able to enjoy them back to back!!
anyway just a thought :)

Even the title of this topic is incredibly rude and callous: "Wish George R.R. Martin would put all his effort into finishing this series."

Why would you assume he isn't putting all of his effort into this series?

Will, I think the OPs first post explains the assumption:

Jeff wrote: " I am frustrated when I hear all the projects Martin is involved in other than just finishing this series.."

And the assumption is probably true, Martin has more than one project going, and so isn't putting all of his effort into song of ice and fire. But, to be fair, his work would probably suffer if he concentrated on only one thing to the exclusion of all else. He would become bored with it, at least I would, I can't work on just one creative project at a time, I'd never finish it because I'd get bored and frustrated with it when it wasn't working as I wanted. All artists need other things to work on, other projects to keep them happy and productive.

And to be frank, when the Game of Thrones TV series was released, I more than forgave Martin the 5 year wait I went through for Dance with Dragons.

I'm not sure I agree with the the idea that GRR shouldn't be rushed because he's an artist. He's also a professional. At the end of the day, his books are the product he's selling. There are deadlines in every business out there. Now, I now GRR is hugely successful and has done his time so to speak, so has earned the right for a little leeway but, I still think a writer has an obligation to their readers to finish what they've started, and in a reasonable timeframe. After all, if it wasn't for his readers, where would he be? Nobody expects him to churn out a book every six months but the gaps in his series verge on the ridiculous. Even a book every two years would be acceptable to us loyal fans and is this really too much to ask of a professional writer?

Well, its possible that his deadline is 2 years from now, isn't it? And considering he's intrinsicly involved in the production of the TV show, which his fans instantly started demanding the second season for within hours of the 1st season ending, as well as them demanding his presence at conventions etc, and him being entitled to a real life as well, I'd say an extra year or so isn't too much to wait for the next book. I suspect the last one took so long because he was getting to grips with the world of TV production at the same time.

The problem here is that people seem to expect him to give up every other commitment he has in order to make them happy by writing a specific book... and when most of his commitments are angled to making his fans happy in several ways, its somewhat selfish and ungrateful to get pissy about him not spending all his time on one book.

I do not doubt that he has deadlines for his books, but I'm also reasonably sure that he will have estimated the time he needed to include his other commitments, and to give himself a bit of breathing space for just kicking back and relaxing on occasion.

As for the gaps being ridiculous, are they, really? Wouldn't you prefer to wait longer and get a better book? We have no idea what might be going on his life to create these gaps, there may be illnesses (his own, or his family and friends) there may be family or friend deaths, all the things we all live with all the time, we don't know how much preliminary work he has to do for each book, and how much he writes for each character as background. The level of detail in these characters suggests to me that there's a dossier on each one, so each time he introduces a new character he has to create a whole new dossier with all t heir background and personality traits, and what his aims for them are initially (of course, the course of writing may change their aims, hence the word "initially"). And I wouldn't be surprised if he also continually updates them all so he can keep track of where they all are. I have visions of a room with a wall dedicated to flowcharts and brainstorms.

I have nothing but respect for people who do something creative as a living, because I know that I can only be creative when it suits me, not when it suits other people, and its hard to have to work to deadlines when you're an artist, that's why I don't do it anymore, even if I was just an amateur.

Personally, I think GRRM has the majority of The Winds of Winter written and a fair bit of A Dream of Spring ready to go. With the amount of collaborators involved in the series, if the worst did happen I think they'd be able to finish it satisfactorily.

Martin certainly does not owe us anything, however I would urge him to finish as quickly as he can for other reasons. Look at The Dark Tower. Stephen King's writing in the series undoubtedly changed after his accident, and I think that altered the series' last couple of books and the ending from what he originally had in mind. The more time passes, who knows what could happen?

I certainly don't want to rush the man, bkz I'd rather he took his time and do it right, since, once they're out, they're forever! If he cranked out a mediocre, regular-length novel every year that would be forgotten in a short while, his name would be Stephen King...

I wholeheartedly agree with Neil Gaiman and with Will, above.

I couldn't disagree more with comments that Martin has any obligation. He has no more obligation to provide another book than you do to read it. Definitely, as a *business proposition*, with long delays Martin risks frustrating *customers* and therefore losing their custom. And that's up to him.

But as an artist, and as a human being, he has every right to live his life, to watch baseball, to celebrate his team winning the Superbowl, to go to conventions and get involved in other projects, without people moaning at him. Like Will says, it's cool to be frustrated at the delay. It's not cool at all to be angry at Martin. If I was him, I'd be very very happy to lose any fans who took umbrage personally and suggested he should get on with it regardless of whatever else his life entails. Think about life, and all the stuff that goes on, that can go on. He has a right to his, and to fit ASOIAF into it however he sees fit.

On another note, though, the TV series has now lit a (relative) fire under him, I'd suspect. If it continues its success, I'd be surprised if they let it break or pause due to running out of material, so he kinda knows he probably has no more than six or so years to finish the last two books, more or less, or risk the TV series getting to the end first...

Sheila wrote: "http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05..."

Wow, that Neil Gaiman's letter is very enlightening, and what he says is true... Sometimes i feel like i shouldn't read the rest of the books in this series because then I'll be done, and the rest of the books aren't out there, but as long as i enjoy them, that's ok, even if George R.R. Martin doesn't finish the series.

Wellcome to the large community of the frustrated ones.
I just hope i'll be alive to see the end of this saga.
Just for information, 2 more books are planned: The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.

Will wrote: "Even the title of this topic is incredibly rude and callous: "Wish George R.R. Martin would put all his effort into finishing this series."

Why would you assume he isn't putting all of his effort ..."
Because he is pretty busy taking HBO's money for helping them with the series.

"Because he is pretty busy taking HBO's money for helping them with the series."

Which is entirely his prerogative, and I wish him all the best with it. And with everything in his life he decides to put before A Song of Ice and Fire, for whatever reason he sees fit.

Vorrutyer wrote: "Because he is pretty busy taking HBO's money for helping them with the series. ."

Wow, you sound so amazingly petulant.

I read that Neil Gaiman blog post years ago, and I just re-read it because of this thread, and I just have to wonder how anybody could read it and not agree with it. It's *so* reasonable, *so* well-said... It should come with a two-option multiple choice at the bottom: (a) 'good point, Neil, well made', or (b) 'You're wrong, Neil, I am the centre of the universe and I demand my book now'.

I'll be satisfied if we don't have to wait 5 years for Winds of Winter. I really want to see how the rest of this series plays out.

Terry wrote: "I read that Neil Gaiman blog post years ago, and I just re-read it because of this thread, and I just have to wonder how anybody could read it and not agree with it. It's *so* reasonable, *so* well..."

that's funny!

@Michael, i know if you are a big fan of the series, you sure want to know what happens next and how it's going to end, but George R.R. Martin is a human being and has other things going on in his life, so you can't blame him for that. You just have to be positive.

I agree. Book one was great. Ploughed through the next two - but seriously how long can you string out a quest. I was originally floored by the creativity of seies, but got bored with no ending in sight.

When did fantasy become synonymous with endless? Robert Jordan lost me at book seven, Terry Goodkind (by far inferior to Jordan and Martin) lost me around the same place, and Martin is on his way. I enjoy fantasy, but I hate this saga/ soap opera crap. LOTR was one book. It's not impossible. Just tell me a story. The best thing Martin could do right now is end the song with the next book. The worst thing imaginable is that he write ten more.

Martin had a plan for less, but he had a plan for a very definite story which included a five-year gap (in the story, not the writing). When it came to write the book that would've come after the five-year gap (Book 4), it just didn't work (too many flashbacks, etc.), so he's had to change his plans and write more to cover what's in the gap. He's now past that point and plans to finish it in two more books. I'd rather he do it right than quickly. I've never read Jordan, but I understand he noodled off into self-indulgence, rather than just having difficulty bringing a ship to its always-intended port. Also, epic as it is, LotR's three books follow considerably fewer characters spread across a smaller number of places than ASoIaF, and are actually just about one quest that takes place over a relatively short space of time.

Terry wrote: "Martin had a plan for less, but he had a plan for a very definite story which included a five-year gap (in the story, not the writing). When it came to write the book that would've come after the f..."

"One quest." That's my point. Get in and get out. It might be the whole genre I have a problem with. I enjoy the hell out of ASIF, but when you sprawl the story out over several thousand-page bricks, it just packs less heat. If you can't tell a story in less than a million words something has gone terribly wrong.

I like it more when there are several plots, a lot of background, a lot of characters... In my opinion this leads to having more than one favorite character in the series which can lead to a conflict where you have to choose between one of them or where sudden twists can turn your whole view on a story upside down. In that way you're emotionally more attached to a story, well me at least.
I liked LoTR, but the one quest was just too simple for me. You know where the book is going, that it's going to end well etc., but with ASOIAF, i have a feeling that anything could happen and i like that.

Adam wrote: If you can't tell a story in less than a million words something has gone terribly wrong.


I find fault with your opinion, Adam. Books like this are read for pleasure and enjoyment. What's so wrong about stretching that out? If you personally don't enjoy it, that's your preference, but to make a sweeping generalization about all authors, all books, all readers -- that's where your logic falls off. YOU may not enjoy long books. Some of us do.

And if it takes GRRM years and years to write the next book in the series WELL, then I will wait years and years without complaint. Before the book is published for MY enjoyment, it is written for MARTIN'S enjoyment. If he didn't think the story was worth telling (and worth telling RIGHT), then he wouldn't have tried to get any of them published in the first place. He clearly has a winning strategy with writing and publication -- let him do his thing and stop hassling him! So many people need to stop begging for instant gratification and learn to be patient.

Besides, from what I've read about his work with HBO, enough people know how the rest of the series is supposed to go to be able to finish it, as both books and tv show, so that if anything were to happen to Martin, both versions could still be finished.

Pam wrote: "Adam wrote: If you can't tell a story in less than a million words something has gone terribly wrong.


I find fault with your opinion, Adam. Books like this are read for pleasure and enjoyment. ..."

I did mention I might have a problem with the genre. And I couldn't care less how long it takes Martin to write each book. But I'm conflicted, Pam! I love fantasy and I hate sagas. And the best fantasy writers write sagas. What can I do, Pam? What can I do?

But I'm conflicted, Pam! I love fantasy and I hate sagas. And the best fantasy writers write sagas. What can I do, Pam? What can I do?"

Sounds like a deep seated conflict leading back to a childhood trauma - perhaps an unfinished bedtime story due to familial strife? Have you consulted a literary therapist?

Adam wrote: I love fantasy and I hate sagas. And the best fantasy writers write sagas. What can I do, Pam? What can I do?

Learn to love the saga, Adam. Resistance is futile. :)

John Scalzi does a good takedown of George Martin's "lack of productivity" here:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2011/07/17...

Nice link, Colin. Good to see so many of the comments with their heads screwed on, too.

Yes, brilliant link/story. (hanging my head in shame) I should not have been one of the "snarling unsocialized masses" :( As John Scalzi wrote: "Martin’s writing as much as anyone. He’s just writing big."

(although I still can hardly wait for more!)

Will wrote: "Honestly, how do you even know that he has an ending planned at all? It wouldn't surprise me that, if he does plan to have an ending, it would end on a cliffhanger."

YOU SHUT YOUR FILTHY LYING MOUTH

(that would really suck)