The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 5th - March 11th, we are reading Book the Second (IX,X, XI, XII, XIII) of A Tale of Two Cities.

The fifth week's reading assignment is:

Week Five: March 5th - March 11th (2012):

Week Five - March 5 - March 11
(pages 123 - 155)
IX. The Gorgon's Head 123
X. Two Promises 134
XI. A Companion Picture 141
XII. The Fellow of Delicacy 148
XIII. The Fellow of No Delicacy 152

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other books.

This book was kicked off on February 6th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Powell's and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. And to make things even easier; this book is available "free" on line as either an ebook download or an audiobook. This weekly thread will be opened up either during the weekend before or on Monday of the first day.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Becky will be leading this discussion. But since this is Becky's first time moderating a book in the History Book Club; Bentley will be co-moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Bentley & Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Charles Dickens

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however. For citations, add always the book cover, the author's photo when available and always the author's link. If mentioning simply other author's, please cite the author's photo and the author's link.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

by Charles Dickens

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Book the Second: The Golden Thread
Chapter 9 The Gorgon's Head

Monsieur the Marquis arrives home and goes to his rooms. Darnay is suspicious of the Marquis, says he thinks the uncle has wanted him in prison. The Marquis laments that the French aristocracy doesn't have the old prerogatives. Charles wants to redress the situation of the family reputation, but the Marquis disagrees. Charles renounces his property. The Marquis questions him about connections to the Manettes.

In the morning Monsieur Gabelle is "hoisted up" and taken away and the Monsieur the Marquis has a knife in his heart with a note from JACQUES.

CHAPTER 10 Two Promises

It's 1781, Darnay, in love with Lucie since the trial is now a French tutor working in London. He goes to see Doctor Manette who is mostly recovered. The Doctor guesses Lucie is the reason for the visit. The interview ends with Charles promising to reveal his true name on the morning of his marriage to Lucie. Lucie comes home about an hour later and finds her father making shoes.

Chapter 11 A Companion Picture

Sidney Carton and Mr. Stryver have been working hard so they can take the annual vacation. Mr. Stryver tells Sidney that he is going to marry, that he is more tender than Sidney, more of a man. He finally tells Sidney he's going to marry Miss Mannette. Sidney doesn't disapprove.

Chapter 12 The Fellow of Delicacy

Stryver decides to tell Mr. Lorry his plans. Mr. Lorry can't encourage this so he suggests he go first and investigate. Lorry returns from Soho with a negative response.


Chapter 13 The Fellow of No Delicacy

Sidney Carton visits Lucy and confesses she has made him want to change for the better, but he can't do it. She argues that he is worth it, but he won't. They both promise not to tell of this talk. This is his one good memory and Lucie weeps. He professes his love for her again and leaves

Thanks, Bryan -

It was a heavy mass of building, that chateau of Monsieur the Marquis, with a large stone courtyard before it, and two stone sweeps of staircase meeting in a stone terrace before the principal door. A stony business altogether, with heavy stone balustrades, and stone urns, and stone flowers, and stone faces of men, and stone heads of lions, in all directions. As if the Gorgon’s head had surveyed it, when it was finished, two centuries ago.

Now that's a bit of the old gothic mansion - similar to Tellson's? Or different ... how?

Up the broad flight of shallow steps, Monsieur the Marquis, flambeau preceded, went from his carriage, sufficiently disturbing the darkness to elicit loud remonstrance from an owl in the roof

What's with the owl in this whole chapter?

The great door clanged behind him, and Monsieur the Marquis crossed a hall grim with certain old boar-spears, swords, and knives of the chase; grimmer with certain heavy riding-rods and riding-whips, of which many a peasant, gone to his benefactor Death, had felt the weight when his lord was angry.

That's none to subtly ominous - even the title of the chapter has the tone of impending doom. Thoughts on this or anything in Chapter 9?

From Bk 2 Chap 9

"The Gorgon had surveyed the building again in the night, and had added the one stone face wanting; the stone face for which it had waited through about two hundred years.
It lay back on the pillow of Monsieur the Marquis. It was like a fine mask, suddenly startled, made angry, and petrified. Driven home into the heart of the stone figure attached to it, was a knife. Round its hilt was a frill of paper, on which was scrawled:
“ 'Drive him fast to his tomb. This, from JACQUES. ' "

Here we have the horrible personification, animation perhaps, of the Gorgon.

Who killed the Monsieur the Marquis? Why?

Becky wrote: "

It was a heavy mass of building, that chateau of Monsieur the Marquis, with a large stone courtyard before it, and two stone sweeps of staircase meeting in a stone terrace befo..."

Stone ........ It's hard and unyielding. It's inflexible. It doesn't see, it doesn't care, it cannot cry .......... It can't be turned into anything other than what it is.

The allusions to stone in this chapter are very effective!

Becky wrote: "That's none to subtly ominous - even the title of the chapter has the tone of impending doom. Thoughts on this or anything in Chapter 9? "

The Gorgon's head .......... isn't the myth that whoever looked at a Gorgon would be turned to stone? Even being in the vicinity of it means that you could be affected by it. It is interesting to see that it is given the illusion of power over the person who could have been said to be its keeper .........

Yes - that's the one. Commonly called the Medusa. The Gorgons were three monster sisters from ancient Greek mythology. They came out of the sea and Medusa, the eldest?, ended up with hair made of snakes due to the jealousy of Athena. A person who looked at Medusa directly would turn to stone.

They were portrayed in various ways over the centuries. I'd imagine Dickens probably envisioned something like the Gorgon heads at the Roman Baths in Bath, England:

From Chapter 10 Two Promises:

It was dark when Charles Darnay left him, and it was an hour later and darker when Lucie came home; she hurried into the room alone- for Miss Pross had gone straight up-stairs- and was surprised to find his reading-chair empty.
“My father!” she called to him. “Father dear!”
Nothing was said in answer, but she heard a low hammering sound in his bedroom. Passing lightly across the intermediate room, she looked in at his door and came running back frightened, crying to herself, with her blood all chilled, “What shall I do! What shall I do!”

What do you think is happening and why?

Is this chapter too emotional or does Dickens get it about right- are you convinced?

Becky wrote: "What do you think is happening and why?

Is this chapter too emotional or does Dickens get it about right- are you convinced?
..."

To tell you the truth, I was a little confused. I don't know why Dr. Manette was so reticent when Charles Darnay announced his intentions other than he was feeling pain at the possibility of losing Lucie, although Darnay tried to make him easy on that account.

Why speaking so superficially about his past would drive him to making shoes again, is a little beyond me. But perhaps I missed something .....????

I noticed in Chapter 8 and 9, there are a few references to Greek mythology and drama.

"...... and by the cracking of his postilions' whips, which twined snake-like about their heads in the evening air, as if he came attended by the Furies. ....."

" ...... and the Marquis, again escorted by the Furies, ..........."

There is also the reference to the Gorgon's head and, at the death of the Marquis, Dickens writes:

"....... It was like a fine mask, suddenly startled, made angry, and petrified....."

The mask reminded me of the masks that the Greeks would use when they performed their drama. Yet in this case, the death of the Marquis hardly seems like a tragedy; it is more like justice.

I'm still unclear why Stryver is referred to as the "lion" and Carton is referred to as the "jackal". I think of a jackal as a scavenger, picking up leftovers, yet Carton seems to do much of the work for Stryver behind the scenes. A lion is fierce and brave, yet while Stryver is successful, he does not seem to exhibit "lion-like" characteristics. His reasoning for marrying Lucie, seem to be self serving at best and not at all admirable. The two appellations do not seem to fit. What does everyone else think?

Good question - I can see Carton as a jackal - doing all the work and getting the left-overs, but I may be thinking of a mule more than a jackal. Stryver as the lion could be self-descriptor - heh - because he's not much of one in the romance area. Maybe he just looks like it in the courtroom.

I'm curious what others think, too. Could it be a bit of comic relief?

Here's a picture - they're kind of like coyotes:

Everyone seems to be in love with Lucy! There's Darnay, Carton and Stryver all vying for her affections. What is it about Lucy that entrances these guys? Is this the Victorian ideal womanhood? Is it Dickens' own personal ideal? Is it universal or of that era?

Becky wrote: "Everyone seems to be in love with Lucy! There's Darnay, Carton and Stryver all vying for her affections. What is it about Lucy that entrances these guys? Is this the Victorian ideal womanhood..."

The first time (ages ago) that I read The Tale of Two Cities I found Lucie nauseatingly perfect and generally unrealistic. Knowing nothing about Dickens at the time, I wondered if he had ever known a woman before. :-Z With this reading I'm trying to keep an open mind, yet so far I haven't changed my opinion. I feel that she is the personification of Dicken's perfect woman and therefore, that is why everyone is attracted to her. However this is a complete guess. Otherwise I cannot think up any other explanation for her ..... ;-)

Yes, Lucie was just nauseatingly sweet and pure to me when I first read the book - and when I second read the book and by the third reading I was kind of inured to her and this reading I am actually finding her somewhat admirable in that she is living up to her own standards - even if they are imposed by the Victorian Era's image of the ideal woman.

So I was hunting around for something substantive about ideal women in the Victorian Era which Dickens may have been aiming at and found the following at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_...

This was the "feminine ideal" as typified in Victorian conduct books by (for example) Sarah Stickney Ellis (1799–1872) or Mrs. Beeton (1836–1865).[41] The Angel in the House (1854) and El ångel del hogar, bestsellers by Coventry Patmore and Maria del Pilar Sinués de Marco, came to symbolise the Victorian feminine ideal.[42]

So I looked up "The Angel in the House" by Coventry Patmore (1854) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ange...
(See below for an excerpt)

The Angel in the House is a narrative poem by Coventry Patmore, first published in 1854 and expanded up until 1862. ... Following the publication of Patmore's poem, the term angel in the house came to be used in reference to women who embodied the Victorian feminine ideal: a wife and mother who was selflessly devoted to her children and submissive to her husband.

"... Later feminist writers have had a less positive view of the Angel. Virginia Woolf satirized the ideal of femininity depicted in the poem, writing that "She [the perfect wife] was intensely sympathetic. She was immensely charming. She was utterly unselfish. She excelled in the difficult arts of family life. She sacrificed daily. If there was a chicken, she took the leg; if there was a draught she sat in it ... Above all, she was pure." (Woolf, 1966: 2, 285)

And then back in "Chapter 7 The Monseigneur in Town" I found ... ta-da, ta-da - "angel" ! :

"Such homes had these various notabilities left behind them in the fine world of Paris,that the spies among the assembled devotees of Monseigneur—forming a goodly half of the polite company—would have found it hard to discover among the angels of that sphere one solitary wife, who, in her manners and appearance, owned to being a Mother. Indeed, except for the mere act of bringing a troublesome creature into this world—which does not go far towards the realisation of the name of mother—there was no such thing known to the fashion. Peasant women kept the unfashionable babies close, and brought them up, and charming grandmammas of sixty dressed and supped as at twenty.


I do believe that Lucie seems like just such a domestic "angel" to all three men. She's not married to any of them, yet, but she's taking care of and making a home for her father and in Carton's words, she's so "pure."

From Chapter 13 - The Fellow of No Delicacy -

Will you let me believe, when I recall this day, that the last confidence of my life was reposed in your pure and innocent breast, and that it lies there alone, and will be shared by no one?"


The following excerpt from The Angel in the Housewill give you a sense of the ideal woman and the male-female relationship presented by Patmore's poem:

Man must be pleased; but him to please
Is woman's pleasure; down the gulf
Of his condoled necessities
She casts her best, she flings herself.
How often flings for nought, and yokes
Her heart to an icicle or whim,
Whose each impatient word provokes
Another, not from her, but him;
While she, too gentle even to force
His penitence by kind replies,
Waits by, expecting his remorse,
With pardon in her pitying eyes;
And if he once, by shame oppress'd,
A comfortable word confers,
She leans and weeps against his breast,
And seems to think the sin was hers;
Or any eye to see her charms,
At any time, she's still his wife,
Dearly devoted to his arms;
She loves with love that cannot tire;
And when, ah woe, she loves alone,
Through passionate duty love springs higher,
As grass grows taller round a stone.

Initially this ideal primarily expressed the values of the middle classes. However, Queen Victoria's devoting herself to her husband Prince Albert and to a domestic life encouragead the ideal to spread throughout nineteenth century society.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/eng...

Becky wrote: "Everyone seems to be in love with Lucy! There's Darnay, Carton and Stryver all vying for her affections. What is it about Lucy that entrances these guys? Is this the Victorian ideal womanhood..."

I think she is represented as a " golden thread". She is always mentioned surrounding light and her golden hair. She is light during a dark time and represents everything still good?

Yes, I think so - Lucy is our light here - and she's not pure English - she's an ideal of womanhood, I think. Dickens' ideal, to be sure but lots of folks read his works.

Becky wrote: "Yes, I think so - Lucy is our light here - and she's not pure English - she's an ideal of womanhood, I think. Dickens' ideal, to be sure but lots of folks read his works."

Agreed! I remember her father many moons ago was always fussing with a strand of her hair--and since his long imprisonment--I think it signified she was a way out, a light, a flame to lead him and others to a more peaceful life/path.

Yes, the "golden thread" is woven through many characters and brings them together .......... Mr. Lorry, Dr. Manette, Charles Darnay, Sydney Carton, Miss Pross and to a lesser extent even Mr. Stryver.

Sorry to be so far behind - but Lucie starts by being afraid and couragously overcame her fears to be the caretaking daughter of Dr Manette and continues through the story, so far, to be his protector first - and she is attractive (so they say) and quiet and respectful and in a world of less free relationships and marriages she is not unattractive I assume. Plus they seem to have some money.

I see Dr. Manette going back to the shoes to remind himself of where he can go if things get uncomfortable - it is part of his world he, seemingly, can control alone.

Yes, I think making shoes must have been a refuge for Dr. Manette. Something he could do and turn all his confused thoughts off. If the footsteps are echoes of the past, then perhaps making shoes is related to echoing footsteps.