Connecting Readers and Writers discussion

Here is an article I wrote about allowing yourself to suck as a writer sometimes. We all hold ourselves to a really high standard, we need to just relax and realize it's ok to suck. What are your thoughts?
http://ellelapraim.com/its-ok-to-suck...

"I have not failed to build a light bulb. I have succeeded in finding a way not to."
-Edison.

I love to call it writing dirty. My drafts are very raw and ugly and generally suck big time. Draft writing is the hardest part for me. The fun stuff comes during rewrites where I get to really develop characters, fine tune story and then I can fix the actual writing making it shine.

Very true, Jen. Getting those first thoughts out would be murder, if I tried to do it correctly as well. Once I've re-worked the pages, I always feel like I should burn the first lot. LOL...but I don't.

Cheers,
LE

Hmm... having re-read the entry I'm forced to think on it some more. I may have to post a longer/ more formal response on my own blog next week (I'm scheduled through Thursday already).

First I appreciate the sentiment of "Hey, she's 19, this is where you get the suck out of your system". However I question if he also wasn't trying to spin what was otherwise a dismissive response to a (I assume) over-enthusiastic stage mother. Consider Stephanie Meyer and JK Rowling. Both of them, really, had no reason to be taken seriously as writers at the stage they were published. Both of them, it could be argued, were at the "suck" stage of writing. But a few billion dollars later....

Now I'm also sympathetic that writers, like most professionals, are probably overwhelmed with people pitching ideas, asking for feedback, and other intrusions. I work with a multiple time published author and I simply refuse to nag him with questions about publishing, agents, and writing. I've asked a few times, but I remain aware, always, that he's not my paid consultant.

For me, I loathe re-writing. I abhor revisions. The thought of reworking prose makes me nauseous. In short I would rather spend an hour staring at a sentence than to pound through it to "get stuff on paper" and then go back and rework it "from scratch". If what I wrote can't be salvaged with a few changed phrases, then I'd rather put the entire passage into the recycle bin and rewrite the scene from scratch. And I would rather do that immediately, then to move on to the next scene.

I learned this lesson about myself writing FantastiCon. That was actually a National Novel Writing Month project where I pounded out 1800 words a day in and around having a 1 year old, and working full time. It then took me 3 years to revise it, in part because I simply hated revising and would find every excuse ~not~ to sit down and re-read and re-write. I made myself do it. I got friends to Beta read and copy edit. I forced myself through the process. But I really, really do not want to do it again.

I would much rather work longer to produce less words and feel good about how they stand the first time through.

Hey Rob,

I think you're onto something, although I like both approaches. My first novel followed a 'write from the hip' approach, which was great for getting the words down onto paper. I still spent time getting particular sentences worded correctly for important scenes, but I doubt that any sentence remained untouched during the editing process. I might have spent far less time editing my novel and I made a vow to get my wording closer to correct the first time, but there is a catch to this approach:

By over-thinking your words, you lose the flow of your book and sometimes the magic is lost in the process.

I do intend to write the next one with a little more focus on getting the words right the first time but I do know that there will still be editing. I know that this is an uneasy fact of writing. There will always be a need to revise.

Rob,
I come from a bit of a strange background on this as I've been editing non-fiction -- at a newspaper -- for more than 20 years. I was also a daily reporter and columnist, so I tend to write quickly as well.

As such, it's become ingrained in me to rewrite. You mentioned the agony of laboring over difficult sentences, but I think after seeing thousands of thousands of other people's stories, it just becomes a part of the process to me: write a first draft of the entire book or chapter, then rewrite it, then rewrite it again. I do this probably five or six times before I'm happy with it, and get other eyes on each revision.

And after 20 years? That 1,800 words usually takes less than two hours. On a good day, I'll write 6,000 to 10,000 words. So the revisions are REALLY important. I've found you can produce fluid turn-of-phrase at speed, but rarely quality. That takes good editing.

Stephen's got a really valid point, too: if I spend too much time on one section, I lose the flow.

L.H. wrote: "Rob,
I come from a bit of a strange background on this as I've been editing non-fiction -- at a newspaper -- for more than 20 years. I was also a daily reporter and columnist, so I tend to write q..."

...it worked for Larsson :)

Stephen wrote: "L.H. wrote: "Rob,
I come from a bit of a strange background on this as I've been editing non-fiction -- at a newspaper -- for more than 20 years. I was also a daily reporter and columnist, so I te..."

Well...sort of. He died first and then the stuff was discovered afterwards. And I'm not a big fan, LOL. But I get the point ;)

I loved this, Elle. Thanks for sharing. It generally takes me four or five months to write a novel and a year to eighteen months to rewrite the thing until it isn't horrible anymore :) Here's to hoping each sucks slightly less than the one before! :)

I find that the first draft of a novel is a trying exploration to find and rough out a story with a meaningful core, with much to be deleted and added and rearranged in the rewrites; many, many of them. Once you have your core --- your characters resonating with your plot, then comes the polishing making this resonation as perfect as possible. Finally, you arrive at the final satisfying draft (sometimes even an amazing draft), wondering how you ever got there. It is then that your initial draft looks so horrible, many times bringing on such a deep frown.

As all writers know, the game is in the rewrites; that which gives the life to the story that readers will want to read. And sometimes, not initially designed, this life can become amazing, even to the author.

Rob and I should work together. I prefer rewrites to the actual writing. Getting the first draft out is torture for me. However, I love to go back months later and rework it. I finished my third ms last summer and haven't looked at it since. But this coming summer I'm looking forward to revising it.

I'd spend two or three hours writing one or more scenes of a chapter as best I could, go over it the next day, and then the next day go on to what I wanted written after it. Repeating the process, I eventually finished the first draft of the novel. Then began the years of rewrite. I would go through five chapters at a time, changing what was horrible, going back over the changes to make changes until the second draft of the book was finished. I then repeated that process. Many months passed between my reworkings of a particular chapter. I never kept track of how many drafts I wrote. The final draft was the result of multi-layering of the best of what I produced. I discovered that at least three-fourths of what I wrote at any one time sucked.

And don't get me wrong. I go through a lot of revisions as I move from draft to "final" product. I'm just don't find a lot fun at reworking entire stories. I know that during the three years I tweeked my last work, I tried to add more characters, more content and more.. More. I just couldn't. I hated what I was producing and I hated what it was doing to the story.

Perhaps part of my response is the suggestion that what we write is automatically crap because it's either written by a young writer, or because it's a first draft. Maybe I'm not milling out Shakespeare, but it's got it's good qualities. It has to have that potential to keep me moving, and without at least that spark of life, then there's not much there to revise.

Then again... maybe it is so much "suck". I dunno. I'm having fun writing it, and until I need it to pay for the internet connection that's a pretty good benchmark.

No one is prefect and the learning never ends. I take whatever advice comes my way :)

Ottilie wrote: "No one is prefect and the learning never ends. I take whatever advice comes my way :)"

If I ever stop learning....then I might as well quit.

'No one is prefect' - that's my new motto :)

I did reach that point where I didn't want to do another go-through, ever. All the effort before, however, benefited me in that I got better at recognizing and overcoming my deficiencies while simultaneously, repeatedly recognizing that my writing is a humbling experience.

I think the point of this thread isn't that you need to do x number of rewrites or that every rough draft is going to suck (though most will need major work). It's that you have to write a certain amount of crap before you can begin to write decent stuff. Natalie Goldberg said years ago that writing is like running. If you want to become a better runner you have to put on some running shoes and hit the pavement. same is true for writing. If you haven't hit the keyboard and turned out a few worthless drafts/novels you probably haven't learned much about writing, no matter how much advice you've read. I agree with the idea it takes a million words of crap before you starting writing solid prose. But maybe others learn faster than I do.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating - every writer needs another pair of eyes to help her see what works and what doesn't. No matter how many times we read our own stuff we won't see all the flaws. It is OK to suck. We need beta readers who will tell us how we suck and then tell us how to suck less.

I agree. I had three sets of eyes looking over my book. It helped me immensely, although I hope to avoid them suffering too much by doing most of the legwork before they set eyes on my work.

All that's been said in this thread is true. But if I could add one more bit to it, I'd say, at least for me, that overcoming the "suck" and finally writing good prose is a matter of passion, dedication and discipine --- and a good imagination that won't let you down.

You have to keep plugging away the best you can (outside eyes notwithstanding) until the good prose finally takes form and smiles in your face. Then you smile back.

Jen wrote: "Ottilie wrote: "No one is prefect and the learning never ends. I take whatever advice comes my way :)"

If I ever stop learning....then I might as well quit."

haha I like that Jen!

Elle wrote: "Here is an article I wrote about allowing yourself to suck as a writer sometimes. We all hold ourselves to a really high standard, we need to just relax and realize it's ok to suck. What are your t..."

I agree. Sometimes you just have to let it flow. That's how I started writing novels and would up with twelve hundred unusable pages. Now rewrites seem to take care of occasional descents into crappy writing. Of course, I also have a drawer (efiles) full of novels that will never see the light of day.

By the way, Elle, a very good article!

Oddly, my book has lots of errors in it deliberately. Gives it a more gritty real feel. There is a warning about it in the front, but people still think the Sub-editor, Editor and proof reader missed all of them lol. Some in the establishment don't like it, but today I just signed the rights for it to be made into a film. So - what do they know!

Jonny wrote: "Oddly, my book has lots of errors in it deliberately. Gives it a more gritty real feel. There is a warning about it in the front, but people still think the Sub-editor, Editor and proof reader miss..."

Tremendous comments, Jonny. I love your "...more gritty real feel." Your book being made into a film says it all. Congratulations!

Congrats Jonny - your book looks really interesting .. and, dare I say it, more entertaining that Palahnuik

If you don't just let yourself go you'll never understand the beauty you have to share.

Editing is where you rid yourself of the suck factor, hopefully with talented beta readers, but you've got to start somewhere.

Paula wrote: "If you don't just let yourself go you'll never understand the beauty you have to share.

Editing is where you rid yourself of the suck factor, hopefully with talented beta readers, but you've got t..."

Amen!

Editing is where you rid yourself of the suck factor, hopefully with talented beta readers, ..."

i've lined up a group of stay at home mom's as beta readers. in a few days i'll print my current draft for them. we'll meet at one friend's home. i'll pass out the drafts and i'll buy lunch for everyone. then in about two or three weeks we'll get together again, i buy lunch again, and i'll tell them to "bring it on." i don't want, "yeah, it's great." i want, "when that guy did that thing he did on page whatever, i don't get it. that didn't make sense to me."

That sounds like a great start, Richard.

I'm the same way - I want to know what blows about my MS - way before I release it to the public.

Who is your target audience? Are those stay-at-home moms the right fit for the book? They'd be perfect for me - Middle Americans who like to read Romantic Suspense.

Paula

Patricia wrote: "I've said this before, but it bears repeating - every writer needs another pair of eyes to help her see what works and what doesn't. No matter how many times we read our own stuff we won't see all ..."

Amen, Patti!

Elle wrote: "Here is an article I wrote about allowing yourself to suck as a writer sometimes. We all hold ourselves to a really high standard, we need to just relax and realize it's ok to suck. What are your t..."

Elle,
Your blog is the bomb.
Thank you for that post! It's so important.
Paula

Paula wrote: "That sounds like a great start, Richard.

I'm the same way - I want to know what blows about my MS - way before I release it to the public.

Who is your target audience? Are those stay-at-home moms..."

well, they aren't my perfect target audience, but they're smart women who read regularly. my book is sort of a "buddy" story, but the buddies are a man and a woman who are both married and have moments of thinking about each other. there's also suspense involved. and ghosts. and spicy mustard. maybe.

Smart women who read regularly are certainly the best target audience.

Your book sounds very interesting, Richard.

Thanks for all the kind words folks! It is a bit scary, the whole film thing! To be mentioned along side Palahnuik - even more scary!

Paula wrote: "Smart women who read regularly are certainly the best target audience.

Your book sounds very interesting, Richard."

did you look it up? thanks. and if you're interested, i'll send you a .mobi copy.

Rachel wrote: "I think the point of this thread isn't that you need to do x number of rewrites or that every rough draft is going to suck (though most will need major work). It's that you have to write a certain ..."

This is my experience, and it took years.

Paula wrote: "Elle wrote: "Here is an article I wrote about allowing yourself to suck as a writer sometimes. We all hold ourselves to a really high standard, we need to just relax and realize it's ok to suck. Wh..."

Thanks Paula, you're such a great cheerleader. I spend a ridiculous amount of time on my blog (thank god I don't have kids yet) so thank you for your support!

It is certainly OK to suck. Just make sure you put that work away somewhere, out of public view...

Ron wrote: "It is certainly OK to suck. Just make sure you put that work away somewhere, out of public view..."

but of course, though it is okay, sometimes it can really discourage us to write.

John wrote: "Ron wrote: "It is certainly OK to suck. Just make sure you put that work away somewhere, out of public view..."

but of course, though it is okay, sometimes it can really discourage us to write."

Not if you retain your passion, John.

Rachel wrote: "I think the point of this thread isn't that you need to do x number of rewrites or that every rough draft is going to suck (though most will need major work). It's that you have to write a certain ..."

Oh yeah. It's a 10,000-hour Gladwell sort of thing, because it's a craft. I've written probably 15,000 news stories over the last 20 years, and part of it is simply comfort, being able to type and express an idea smoothly as quickly as it occurs to you.

But everyone sucks for the first few years. Everyone. They might have talent, but they still suck, because the final product is much more than just a naturally glib or resonant turn-of-phrase.

I agree with L.H. There's a tipping point. However, based on experience I don't think years and years of writing nonfiction prepares one for writing fiction. I think you have to have at a couple of badly written books (unpublished, I hope) under before you learn the craft and can exploit whatever talents as a story teller that you have.

I meant to say "under your belt."

Lee wrote: "I agree with L.H. There's a tipping point. However, based on experience I don't think years and years of writing nonfiction prepares one for writing fiction. I think you have to have at a couple of..."

Right on, Lee. I think you have it!

But if you are a vampire reader and gay, maybe you will really suck. Hahah just a lighthearted thought. I am making a story about a gay vampire who only sucks power from old books.

Lee wrote: "I meant to say "under your belt.""

There was a time when many writers I know, or knew, tended to "have a belt" -- or three -- as part of their process.

B^)

Ron wrote: "Lee wrote: "I meant to say "under your belt.""

There was a time when many writers I know, or knew, tended to "have a belt" -- or three -- as part of their process.

B^)"

Some of us still do :)