The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

The thread is now open to discuss section eleven (Chapters 51-55). Please post your thoughts below.

This section is mainly about heart affairs of different nature: Miss Bray and Ralph’s scheme to organize her marriage, love-stricken Smike is possibly saying the final goodbye (or not saying goodbye to Kate), the revelation of true feelings of Frank Cheeryble, and Mr. Gride’s love of money and his desire to possess a young, attractive wife. The last point can be wholeheartedly classified as a heart affair as it truly possessed Mr. Gride’s mind and heart.

I see Madeline as a flat character. She represents a typical Dickens’s heroine. According to Miriam Margolyes, (and this is a very loose quotation) this lady is young, naïve, vulnerable, a sacrificial lamb, and …. eighteen. She is very submissive, and though the cause is noble, or we are made to believe that it is noble, it is somewhat strange that Madeline is so eager to sacrifice herself so quickly. Kate Nickleby, on the other hand, is much more decisive, determined, and self-sufficient. She is pro-active while Madeline is reactive. The arranged marriage is prevented by Providence or serendipity, and I also find it hard to believe. It looks like Dickens was really out of options how to prevent this marriage from happening. But we all know how often Death changes our plans irrevocably. What is your opinion of this death? Was it the only way to achieve a favorable course of action for this novel?

And I also think that Dickens is telling us that the financial success Ralph has been enjoying so far is totally spurious. His financial stability might not be stable any more.

Mrs. Nickleby keeps irritating me. Is it her only role in the novel? Here is a quotation with the dialogue between Nicholas and his mother. She is good-natured and lives in the world of her OWN dreams, but isn’t she an intellectual peach? :-)

'What may you call his nose, now, my dear?' pursued Mrs. Nickleby, wishing to interest Nicholas in the subject to the utmost.
'Call it?' repeated Nicholas.
'Ah!' returned his mother, 'what style of nose? What order of architecture, if one may say so. I am not very learned in noses. Do you call it a Roman or a Grecian?'
'Upon my word, mother,' said Nicholas, laughing, 'as well as I remember, I should call it a kind of Composite, or mixed nose. But I have no very strong recollection on the subject. If it will afford you any gratification, I'll observe it more closely, and let you know.'
'I wish you would, my dear,' said Mrs Nickleby, with an earnest look.

Here are my thoughts to the chapters we have read this week:

Dickens shapes a further "evil" character in the form of Mr. Gride, who to me is really a creepy,sinister, frugal, old man and it makes me shiver to think of him marrying a girl, who is not yet 20. His housekeeper seems a little of the same kind, otherwise they would not have been together for so long, but it really seems horrible to think of a young woman to come into such a household.

Like with the Crummles, it seems as if Dickens wants to give all the characters another appearance. So it was interesting to meet the Kenwigs's and Mr Lillyvick again, whose wife eloped with someone else. Would it really have made a difference to the story if they had not reappeared? Or is this a little like the end of a play where every character comes on the stage in front of the audience once more?

Regarding Madeline, I agree with you, Zulfiya, that she is a flat character. Actually we do not get ot know much about here at all, except for her devotion to her father. Compared to her, Kate is - as we had discussed at an earlier stage - a much stronger and independent character.
Zulfiya, you asked about the death of Mr. Bray and whether it was necessary for the outcome. I must admit, I think as a reader I would rather have seen Mr. Bray change his mind, esp. as he was already talking about whether this was not a cruel thing to do. We had discussed earlier that it seems really cruel if your own father sells you. And I think Dickens could have turned an obviously bad character into something good. Interestingly in the whole book most characters stay the way they are or vanish, e.g. Lord Frederick who seemed to be on the right path from bad to evil, but then actually died. So also here, Dickens chooses death before a change in character....

I was a little surprised also about the character of Smike who was most of the time very visible, but got relatively neglected in the last chapters. Also in chapter 55, everything revolves around Madeline and her being sick, but no word of Smike, not even when Madeline is brought into their home. Just at the end, all of a sudden he appears again, almost as if the author recalled that there was someone still to talk about...

Related to Mrs. Nickleby, I fully agree with you, Zulfiya, she is kind of annoying, and I think her children think the same sometimes. She reminded me again a little of Mrs. Bennett in Pride and Prejudice, who is responsible in the way she brings up her daughters, but when they then act as she taught them to and it goes wrong, she is completely distressed. Mrs. Nickleby is to me too egocentric and too far from reality, first she is making a fuss about Nicholas's and
Kate's actions and then she iselling it as her idea... I also had to think again of those little short stories that were told in the beginning of the novel. We had the discussion about the second one and how images/ memories of the past can help you cope with the present. This was what some boys in Dotheboys Hall seemed to do when they were in a very, very bad shape, but I also think that Mrs. Nickleby is doing that. She tries to escape from the "real" world and somehow creates her own. And she always dives into these unnecessary memories of some occasion in the past that actually are completely irrelevant for the current situation.
I must admit, if she were my mother, I would have gone crazy, esp. the way she was discussing in the last chapter - around the quotation that you brought, Zulfiya.

One of my favourite paragraphs was the one in the beginning of chapter 53, 4th paragraph:

"...how youth and beauty died, and ugly griping age lived tottering on; how crafty avarice grew rich, and manly honest hearts were poor and sad; ... how much injustice, misery, and wrong there was, and yet how the world rolled on, from year to year, alike careless and indifferent..."
This is a stunning reflection of the world and still so valid even in our days, maybe even more in our days...

I agree as well about Madeline - she is a flat character. And I never really thought of Kate as independent and strong, but compared to Madeline, she certainly is. Sacrifice is a good quality, but having self-esteem and value for your own life is important as well.

And disheartening that Nicholas, who does have a sister who is a far better role model, would fall so madly in love with Madeline. Since we really don't know her and therefore can't form an opinion of her character, we can only assume that he likes her merely for her looks. And since he falls in love with her on first sight, I think that is an educated quess. Also, it is the typical male as dominant, woman as submissive and helpless. Madeline is the damsel in distress, but Nicholas can come in and save the day.

Of course, he really doesn't save the day...Bray dies. But no matter how you look at the situation, Madeline's destiny is in the hands of men - either dying, saving her, or manipulating her.

Hedi - Mrs. Nickelby reminds me of Mrs. Bennett as well. Both are silly twits. :-)

Sorry for the big block quote from the text, but I think this is a wonderful example of the social justice that Dickens is so famous for - and Hedi also alluded to this:

"But now, when he thought how regularly things went on, from day to day, in the same unvarying round; how youth and beauty died, and ugly griping age lived tottering on; how crafty avarice grew rich, and manly honest hearts were poor and sad; how few they were who tenanted the stately houses, and how many of those who lay in noisome pens, or rose each day and laid them down each night, and lived and died, father and son, mother and child, race upon race, and generation upon generation, without a home to shelter them or the energies of one single man directed to their aid; how, in seeking, not a luxurious and splendid life, but the bare means of a most wretched and inadequate subsistence, there were women and children in that one town, divided into classes, numbered and estimated as regularly as the noble families and folks of great degree, and reared from infancy to drive most criminal and dreadful trades; how ignorance was punished and never taught; how jail-doors gaped, and gallows loomed, for thousands urged towards them by circumstances darkly curtaining their very cradles' heads, and but for which they might have earned their honest bread and lived in peace; how many died in soul, and had no chance of life; how many who could scarcely go astray, be they vicious as they would, turned haughtily from the crushed and stricken wretch who could scarce do otherwise, and who would have been a greater wonder had he or she done well, than even they had they done ill; how much injustice, misery, and wrong, there was, and yet how the world rolled on, from year to year, alike careless and indifferent, and no man seeking to remedy or redress it; when he thought of all this, and selected from the mass the one slight case on which his thoughts were bent, he felt, indeed, that there was little ground for hope, and little reason why it should not form an atom in the huge aggregate of distress and sorrow, and add one small and unimportant unit to swell the great amount."

The way I interpret the passage is that Dickens is saying that the poor are destined to commit crime and end up in prisons or in the gallows. How could they not? They do it in order to survive and because they know no other type of life.

I'm not sure that I completely agree, but for the most part, I think that he has a point. Certainly, not all people born very poor are doomed to a life of crime and misery. There are other things in life that are important: family and friends.

But if a person is always trying to survive, it is hard to focus on other parts of life. And if you have no one who can help you rise above or who even know that rising above is a possibility, how can you do that?

Also, if there are no ways to rise above - education, work, etc. - there isn't much that a person can do.

Two last thoughts:

1) We have two mysteries: what is the 10,000 pounds Nicholas is talking about? And what document did Gride's housekeeper steal (one that Ralph seems to know about)?

2) I found it interesting that Nicholas doesn't think that Kate and Frank can be together due to money. Aren't they the son and daughter of a gentleman? They've lost their money, but they are still in the same class.

BTW - I looked ahead to see which Dickens book is next: it is the Old Curiosity Shop. It is one of the few that I haven't read before, although I did see the mini-series. Even though we don't have a lot of people in our discussions, I hope that we still continue. I'm really enjoying the Dickens project.

Hedi, you are absolutely right. Mrs. Nichleby is Mrs. Bennett incarnate.

Hedi and Lynnm, I really liked the quotes in your posts. Dickens has that amazing quality of being extremely critical but also extremely lyrical about the subject of social injustice.

And I have always liked Dickens mysteries in his novels: they are never overwhelming and do not become the focal point of his novels, but they are usually resolved on the personal level. It is as if he is trying to preserve a certain element of privacy in the lives of his characters. On the other hand, his characters lived mainly in the nineteenth century London, and the notion of what privacy is and what criminal investigation is was definitely different.

I also like the Dickens Project, and I am already looking forward to the discussion of his next novel.

Lynnm wrote: "BTW - I looked ahead to see which Dickens book is next: it is the Old Curiosity Shop. It is one of the few that I haven't read before, although I did see the mini-series. Even though we don't hav..."

I agree. Maybe some more will join in the next time. :-)

Lynnm wrote: "Sorry for the big block quote from the text, but I think this is a wonderful example of the social justice that Dickens is so famous for - and Hedi also alluded to this:

"But now, when he though..."

sorry for not having had the patience to type the whole paragraph. It was already late and I was a little too lazy for that :-( So thanks for your efforts, Lynn!

Lynnm wrote: "Two last thoughts:

1) We have two mysteries: what is the 10,000 pounds Nicholas is talking about? And what document did Gride's housekeeper steal (one that Ralph seems to know about)?

2) I fo..."

to 1)
Lynn, where was that paragraph in which Nicholas was mentioning 10,000 pounds? I thought that it was actually Ralph who was talking about that, but I have already read on a little and now that I am searching for that paragraph in the chapters we have just finished, I cannot find that any more. :-(

to 2)
I think Nicholas was taking into account that Kate would not have a dowry, which was an essential part of the marriage in those days. From Jane Austens novels, for example, we know that some marriage decisions were not based on love, but on monetary aspects. And a lot of people seemed to have their say in these matters.
Of course, the Cheerybles do not seem like the people who would take a dowry or yearly income as the major factor, but I believe Nicholas is here only stating what a lot of people at that time might have thought.

Hedi wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Sorry for the big block quote from the text, but I think this is a wonderful example of the social justice that Dickens is so famous for - and Hedi also alluded to this:

"But now, wh..."

I didn't type it in...I went to the online text in Gutenberg and copied and pasted it. :-) I shouldn't admit it - everyone would think I was so dedicated. lol!

Hedi wrote: "Lynn, where was that paragraph in which Nicholas was mentioning 10,000 pounds? I thought that it was actually Ralph who was talking about that, but I have already read on a little and now that I am searching for that paragraph in the chapters we have just finished, I cannot find that any more. :-("

It's in the chapter where Bray dies, and Nicholas and Kate whisk Madeline away. It is the last words that Nicholas says to Ralph in that chapter:

"'Not one,' replied Nicholas, 'I will not hear of one—save this. Look to yourself, and heed this warning that I give you! Your day is past, and night is comin' on.'

'My curse, my bitter, deadly curse, upon you, boy!'

'Whence will curses come at your command? Or what avails a curse or blessing from a man like you? I tell you, that misfortune and discovery are thickening about your head; that the structures you have raised, through all your ill-spent life, are crumbling into dust; that your path is beset with spies; that this very day, ten thousand pounds of your hoarded wealth have gone in one great crash!'

''Tis false!' cried Ralph, shrinking back.

''Tis true, and you shall find it so. I have no more words to waste. Stand from the door. Kate, do you go first. Lay not a hand on her, or on that woman, or on me, or so much a brush their garments as they pass you by!—You let them pass, and he blocks the door again!'"

Hedi wrote: "I think Nicholas was taking into account that Kate would not have a dowry, which was an essential part of the marriage in those days...
Of course, the Cheerybles do not seem like the people who would take a dowry or yearly income as the major factor, but I believe Nicholas is here only stating what a lot of people at that time might have thought. "

Thanks, that makes more sense.

And yes, I don't think the Cheerybles are the type that care about money and/or a dowry or lack thereof.

I have gotten sadly behind in my reading of this book and am only now starting to catch up. I have very much enjoyed, though, reading what the rest of you have written here; it has greatly enhanced my understanding of the book.

I was interested to read about Mr. Bray's dream that he had the night before Madeline's wedding, in which things happen as they do in reality that morning, up until he takes Madeline's hand to lead her downstairs, the floor sinks and he falls a great way and alights on a grave. It seems he has dreamed of his death. Ralph and Gride's reaction to this, his imminent death, are chilling.

Hedi, Nicholas mentions the 10,000 pounds towards the end of Chapter 54, when he is carrying Madeline out of the house after her father dies, and after Ralph has cursed him:

"Whence will curses come at your command? or what avails a curse or blessing from a man like you? I tell you, that misfortune and discovery are thickening about your head; that the structures you have raised, through all your ill-spent life, are crumbling into dust; that your path is beset with spies; that this very day, ten thousand pounds of your hoarded wealth have gone in one great crash!"

Although how Nicholas knows this, I am not sure. Perhaps someone can enlighten me? :)

Hi Mari - I could enlighten you, but it would be a spoiler (I've read ahead). At this point, the reader doesn't know how Nicholas knows about the 10,000 pounds.

Lynnm wrote: "I didn't type it in...I went to the online text in Gutenberg and copied and pasted it. :-) I shouldn't admit it - everyone would think I was so dedicated. lol! "

Good hint! ;-)

Lynnm wrote: "Hedi wrote: "Lynn, where was that paragraph in which Nicholas was mentioning 10,000 pounds? I thought that it was actually Ralph who was talking about that, but I have already read on a little and ..."

Thanks for that paragraph, Lynn! I had not paid that much attention to it after all. I should make notes when I read. Sometimes I spread my reading over the whole week and then at the end, when I want to post my comments I forget about some things.

Maybe he got a hint from Newman Noggs, but as Zulfiya stated it will somehow probably show later.

Mari wrote: "I have gotten sadly behind in my reading of this book and am only now starting to catch up. I have very much enjoyed, though, reading what the rest of you have written here; it has greatly enhanced..."

Thanks to you, too, Mari! I had not seen your post while writing about Lynn's comments.

Hedi wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Hedi wrote: "Lynn, where was that paragraph in which Nicholas was mentioning 10,000 pounds? I thought that it was actually Ralph who was talking about that, but I have already read on..."

The same happens to me, Hedi. Especially since I read it on my Nook - it's hard to go back, unlike a regular book (I bookmark things, but still haven't figured out how to go back to each bookmark!). That's how I found the online text on Gutenberg - I can quickly go through the chapters before I post. But taking notes is a much better idea, because I know I miss things as well from when I first read the chapters.

Lynnm wrote: "Hi Mari - I could enlighten you, but it would be a spoiler (I've read ahead). At this point, the reader doesn't know how Nicholas knows about the 10,000 pounds."

Thanks, Lynnm....I just finished reading some chapters for the week of March 25th and found the answer...I thought I had missed something!

Mari wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Hi Mari - I could enlighten you, but it would be a spoiler (I've read ahead). At this point, the reader doesn't know how Nicholas knows about the 10,000 pounds."

Thanks, Lynnm....I ..."

I've finished the book, and I still don't know how he knew! Must have been reading too fast.

Regarding Mrs. Nickleby, I totally agree that she is like Mrs. Bennett, but I do feel that we ought to at least give her credit for (1) recognizing the attraction between Frank and Kate (which Nicholas was oblivious to), and (2) seeing it as something to be encouraged (which was self-interested of her, no doubt, but still shows her looking out for the good of her family - and she turned out to be right for once!).