SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Later today, Sid (Snail in danger), will be posting more about this exciting prospect.

Exciting! Yes! Now I demand that you all look and act excited!

Okay, now that I have that out of my system, Kickstarter seems to be catching on as a means for people with connections to the SF/F community to fund projects that are interesting but not necessarily interesting to a sufficiently large number of people for a traditional publisher to take a chance on. (Here's an example of one such project.)

For those not familiar with Kickstarter, it's a web site that hosts proposals for projects that people would like to do, and then allows potential backers to pledge money to support the project. This lets creators gauge interest, raise capital, or both. If the project meets its monetary target, Kickstarter then collects funds from people who made pledges via Amazon Payments. If the target isn't met, then no money is collected.

This is almost the extent of my knowledge about Kickstarter, except for two things. Kickstarter doesn't guarantee that the person who posted the proposal won't run away to Tahiti with the pledged cash, and so far as I know, they can only take money from Amazon Payments. If you have other questions, please consult Kickstarter's Help Page. :)

Brad and I kicked this around yesterday, and came up with some tentative guidelines. These may be subject to expansion or other changes.

(1) You should post a short description (a sentence or two) for each project you link to, explaining what it is and how it is connected to SF/F.

(2) If you have a connection to the project other than being an interested potential consumer, you should disclose it.

(3) It's okay to link to projects on other crowdfunding sites, or to funding requests that are hosted on a creator's web site. But please note that the latter is the case if it applies.

(4) This is for linking to funding requests that will produce projects only - books or story collections, short films, SF/F related music, whatever. It is not for linking to auctions or donation requests that benefit a charity or support a writer or fan who's having financial difficulties. (If a Kickstarter project is being used to raise funds for a project whose sale will support a particular person or charity, that would be acceptable.)

Thanks, everyone, for reading!

Great thread!

I am not affiliated with this anthology proposal, it was brought to my attention, and would seem apt for this thread and of interest to the SF/F community.

Here is the link:



http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/5...

Hi Janny - could I trouble you to whittle that press release down to a sentence or two, plus the link? Thanks for getting us started, though!

Snail in Danger (Sid) wrote: "Hi Janny - could I trouble you to whittle that press release down to a sentence or two, plus the link? Thanks for getting us started, though!"

Since I am not in any way connected to the project, I didn't feel comfortable 'editing' the official press release...so I cut that part and left the link, which likely provides the necessary information well enough. With your OK, perhaps let's invite the professional authors involved to contribute their own comments?

Good stuff, Sid. Thanks for setting this up for us.

Thanks for starting the thread, Brad. And sorry for getting eaten by real life immediately after suggesting it!

Janny, to finally answer your question, I lean toward limiting this thread to one post per project, or at least not having creators use this thread as a wholesale Q&A space. I feel like we should walk a line between letting people know about things that might interest them and not having threads that are extremely active with commercial activity, if that makes any sense. Also, I think this thread being a Q&A space for all projects would tend to lower the signal:noise ratio. (Which is not to say there would never be room for creators to answer questions - just that this shouldn't be open-ended.)

Better late than never, here is the thing I was thinking of when I suggested this thread: Scheherazade's Facade, an anthology of "stories in which the protagonist or other major characters are disguised or transformed, or otherwise challenge traditional gender roles." Includes stories by Tanith Lee and Aliette de Bodard, among others; it was regretfully canceled by its publisher due to economic woes.

That's correct. So, when looking at a project, "you" would "consider" factors like the "reputation" of the person who created the "project" and whether or not they had "completed" other projects before. (Sorry, I'll stop doing that. I couldn't resist. More seriously, I suspect you were trying to convey skepticism, but using scare quotes so many times does kind of make you look like a dink.) Do they have a track record of some kind, do they have a reputation that would be tarnished by not following through.

As an example: Laura Anne Gilman has a Kickstarter going right now, to allow her to produce an ebook featuring a longer story about Danny the snarky half-human PI, one of the minor supporting characters from a series she recently completed. (Said series, Paranormal Scene Investigations, was traditionally published.) In addition to her many traditionally published books, Gilman has completed and fulfilled one previous Kickstarter ebook project, From Whence You Came. (Track record.) She's worked in SF/F for years, first as an editor and then as a writer, and she's been blogging for years. (A reputation that would be diminished if she didn't follow through.)

As I said in my first post in the read: "Kickstarter doesn't guarantee that the person who posted the proposal won't run away to Tahiti with the pledged cash, and so far as I know, they can only take money from Amazon Payments. If you have other questions, please consult Kickstarter's Help Page."

So, no, there is no guarantee that you will get what you furnished money to fund. It's a buyer beware proposition. If you don't want to take a chance, or don't think you can get enough information to feel certain that you aren't taking one, or aren't interested in the project, then you shouldn't pledge money.

The idea of this thread is not to twist people's arms to make them give money. It's to make people aware of things that might interest them enough that they want to make it happen, in case they haven't heard about them. Cool things like this project to digitize old public domain SF.

If you don't care you can ignore this thread; if you do want to keep an eye on this thread, you can do so without ever clicking the link for a project that doesn't interest you. If people object to this thread's existence, they can apply to Brad and I'm sure he'd be responsive to that feedback. It'd be no skin off my nose - I certainly understand that even the appearance of solicitation for funds can rub people the wrong way.

Hi Sid,

I'm familiar with Kickstarter, having spent a number of years in IT Management and having a faint memory of when Kickstarter well, kicked-started itself :) I have two points to my reply:

(1) what's the point of this thread? soliciting projects to fund because you want to support the SciFi community or....? that's what I took away from your original post and just wanted to check to be sure I didn't misunderstand.

(2) You said, "(If a Kickstarter project is being used to raise funds for a project whose sale will support a particular person or charity, that would be acceptable.)" which I'm sorry, but I have to respond to with this:

It is completely AGAINST Kickstarter policy to create or fund a project whose purpose is to support a particular person and especially NOT to support a charity. In fact, they have an explicit remark about charities being ILLEGAL to fund through Kickstarter on their policies page for setting up Projects. Please review the current guidelines here:

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines

Please note, I am not personally or professionally involved with or attached to Kickstarter, either as an employee or as a project promoter. I'm simply VERY familiar with it as a means of funding outside the Venture Capital system of most startups. I still deal with startup IT businesses and talk to my IT contacts and Kickstarter has undergone lots (LOTS!) of changes since Amazon bought them a ways back. Not all GOOD changes but the changes have definitely been discussed and buzzed in the IT community.

Crowdsourcing is a vile way for hardworking Indie Designers to get ripped off. Kickstarter was supposed to be the other side of that coin, crowdfunding. Just be cautious of what you put onto the site if you decide to particpate, as people who frequent crowdfunding sites are not necessarily looking to help you and site-scrapes occur every minute (literally, every 60 seconds a web site is scraped, duplicated and ripped off). We have "Writers Beware" from SFWA. This your "Crowdfunders Beware" from .. me. No one. Interested by stander.

This now ends your Public Service Announcement ;-) Oh and do let me know if I misunderstood your objective, Sid, but if I got it, I'll have to be sure to refer friends to this thread for ideas on where to spend their money (other than my book *haha*)

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

Conditioned Response "A SciFi Thriller to Remember--if You Can!"
#1 Hottest SciFi | #1 Human Male [alien female] Mates | #4 Best Dystopian Originals

(1), basically, yes. To let people here know about projects that they might be interested in but not necessarily otherwise hear about. (Though it seems like this thread is creating more confusion than interest, so far; I am now debating whether or not this was a good idea.)

(2) So, if I wanted to have a Kickstarter to produce an anthology so I could donate the proceeds from later sale of the anthology to some charitable cause, that would be forbidden? Because that the kind of thing I had in mind. Not direct fundraising. As I said in my first post: "If a Kickstarter project is being used to raise funds for a project whose sale will support a particular person or charity, that would be acceptable."

The Kickstarter terms say that "donating a portion of funds raised on Kickstarter to a charity or cause" is not acceptable - but I see nothing to indicate that using all the raised funds to produce the project and then selling the finished product and donating some of the funds raised later would be forbidden.

In fact, I found several Kickstarters which in some way had a charitable-use-of-proceeds component: this, this, this, this

Note that all those Kickstarters are old/expired/whatever, and they don't all have SF/F connections - I only linked to those as examples.

I tried to be very clear in my original post that things like "Help Writer X get medical care and pay the mortgage" auctions were not what the thread was for. But if someone wants to Kickstart a project to produce something to sell to benefit Writer X, well, I see a distinction, and apparently Kickstarter does too. ;) I'm not familiar with Kickstarter behind the scenes, but my understanding is that all projects are reviewed for adherence to Kickstarter's guidelines before they go live on the site. So something that has the kind of charitable connection as the linked projects do is presumably permissible.

(Do you run the risk of someone funneling all the funds raised into the cause rather than producing the project? I suppose. But you run that risk with all projects - this is where the need to evaluate comes in, as discussed in earlier posts.)

Sid, I think having this thread to let the community know something is going up at Kickstarter is a very good idea.

I've seen projects that could not have happened get the funds they needed to go, and it worked well for all concerned.

Having a way to let the community know without spamming has a lot of merit.

If there needs to be a thread discussing the merits of Kickstarter or the things to beware of, it might be made a separate discussion/or a bullet list at the top? I would truly hate to see the baby thrown out with the bath water.

Sid, I can only refer you again to the 3rd bullet of the guidelines linked above. It says (and I'm copy/pasting)

No charity or cause funding. Examples of prohibited use include raising money for the Red Cross, funding an awareness campaign, funding a scholarship, or donating a portion of funds raised on Kickstarter to a charity or cause.

I think that pretty clearly says you cannot fund an anthology whose proceeds you clearly intend to use for donation to a charity. Especially not if you ever sell the book with a remark such as "proceeds to benefit...." or "a portion of the proceeds to benefit...." Both are ILLEGAL under that paragraph.

I don't know what legal action they will or will not take against you or anyone else. I don't work for them nor do I even have a project there now (since funding my writing career is also prohibited under those same guidelines). I've tried to find a way to create a project, using some loophole, but so far, no one has found one for me and I've asked some of my IT/legal friends to look. We got nuthin'

Not unless the funding of my "project" is LIMITED to the costs of the printing or related publication costs (marketing, PR), but NOT ONCE CENT MORE can be raised or used and I don't need printing funded; I need my life funded so I can write. Trust me, I've been looking for a loophole. There aren't any. Given that Amazon (#1 retailer in the world and mega-corporation) now owns Kickstarter, just be careful.

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

Conditioned Response "A SciFi Thriller to Remember--if You Can!"
#1 Hottest SciFi | #1 Human Male [alien female] Mates | #4 Best Dystopian Originals

Marjorie, quoting the guidelines at eachother isn't going to get us anywhere. I'm writing to Kickstarter to ask for clarification. If they reply informatively, I'll post it here.

None of the projects I have linked to are things that fund me in any way (I have no connections other than being an interested potential reader), so I'm very unworried about potential personal legal consequences. (Also, point of clarity: something being against Kickstarter's policies is not necessarily the same thing as being "ILLEGAL." Technically correct is the best kind of correct! ;)

(I'm hesitant to add a reply to this tangent, but ...)

Friday, if you're right that Kickstarter can't be used in the way Sid describes, then it would seem that whether or not posts advertising such projects are allowed here is a totally academic debate since, presumably, they won't exist.

We could have a different conversation about whether we agree with the Kickstarter policy, but perhaps this thread could be more narrowly focused on identifying SF and Fantasy KS projects?

Jeff wrote: "(I'm hesitant to add a reply to this tangent, but ...)

Friday, if you're right that Kickstarter can't be used in the way Sid describes, then it would seem that whether or not posts advertising such projects are allowed here is a totally academic debate since, presumably, they won't exist."

Jeff, I'm not aware of a discussion or debate on the allowability of posts here advertising such projects--rather the question is the existence of the projects, themselves. I guess I don't understand why you directed this remark to me, as I was actually IN FAVOR of Sid's thread here to advertise SF/F projects, generally, and was just cautioning against creating projects that are illegal. The two are really not at all connected.

And I shall DELIBERATELY refrain from inserting any kind of signature whatsoever since both Jeff and Sid have said elsethread how offensive it is to both of you.

Snail in Danger (Sid) wrote: "Marjorie, quoting the guidelines at eachother isn't going to get us anywhere. I'm writing to Kickstarter to ask for clarification. If they reply informatively, I'll post it here."

That would be awesome if you are able to get a definitive reply out of them. As noted, I've tried but it's kind of like Amazon's Customer Service: a big black hole of canned speeches and cookie cutter answers that don't actually answer the real question.

"(Also, point of clarity: something being against Kickstarter's policies is not necessarily the same thing as being "ILLEGAL." Technically correct is the best kind of correct! ;) "

Actually, it is definitely illegal to click agreement to the terms and conditions of use of the site, take payment for something and then do something else with the funds. It's called fraudulent behavior and Amazon COULD theoretically pursue anyone whose money trail they can prove. Given the digital footprints money leaves these days, not hard to prove anymore. Not like using the Caymans (LOL)

I shall again DELIBERATELY refrain from inserting my sig but I have to say it feels weird NOT to sign my posts since I do it everywhere else.

Marjorie wrote: "Jeff, I'm not aware of a discussion or debate on the allowability of posts here advertising such projects--rather the question is the existence of the projects, themselves. I guess I don't understand why you directed this remark to me, as I was actually IN FAVOR of Sid's thread here to advertise SF/F projects, generally, and was just cautioning against creating projects that are illegal. The two are really not at all connected."

I guess I misunderstood you then. Regardless, I think this thread would be most useful if it were kept to discussion of SF and Fantasy KS projects, not other (very interesting) discussions. That is just my two cents--it's of course up to the moderators to determine.

I’m Michael Reed McLaughlin, the author of Rüneglaive: Sword of Heroes; (being published by Rare Bird Books Winter 2014) and I’m raising money on Kickstarter to hire an artist and to develop an Enhanced Reading Experience iBooks Edition of Book One of my high fantasy trilogy—The Hero Sagas. Watch the Kickstarter video for a truly magical ride—a story within a tale within a legend.

Michael Reed McLaughlin

Good luck, Michael! Be sure to "advertise" elsewhere (in this group and others) as the biggest key to getting pledges seems to be getting the word out. The most effective method, however, remains a personal PRIVATE email message to solicit support from people you know--or beta readers who liked your book.

Be sure to check out what Michael Sullivan did for his upcoming release of Hollow World:



He and I ran kickstarters at the same time this past spring (though he had a pre-existing fan-base and got funded in the first 4 days and I only had about 50 readers more than half of whom pledged and only got me to about 21% funded).

Michael really set a fabulous example of how to go about it, between his Facebook, Twitter, Goodreads and of course, Kickstarter presence. He was extremely available and accessible and most of all, open and informative. He shared information with everyone. He even admitted that he had wanted to fund the entire cost of editing the book (in the $5000 to $6000 range) but was afraid he wouldn't get funded if he asked for more than $3000. Ironic, eh, given he got funded by 1000% ($30,000 +) in the end?

The other key I found seems to be the availability of sufficient pledge levels, including stretch goals and frequent updates to existing backers to let them know when stretch goals are getting close to being met. Your existing backers will go out and ask their friends to come pledge (even $10 helps if 100 or 1000 people pledge it). That's the magic of crowdfunding. As long as there's a crowd (more than my 50, forex) you can fund with very small amounts from each person.

Links to the closed projects for anyone who's curious:

Michael Sullivan's successful kickstarter:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/michaeljsullivan/hollow-world-a-novel-by-michael-j-sullivan/

My kickstarter which I cancelled after only 10 days (but it sure was a learning experience!):
http://kck.st/RaifStory

Funding the cover art, the editing, and the printing of pledge rewards all is perfectly legal within the TOS of Kickstarter but the funding of charity projects such as SID's is still illegal and against TOS. Keep checking SID since the Kickstarter folks might change their TOS when more and more authors fund publications with them. Even the infamous Seth Godin used Kickstarter to prove a point to his NYC publisher (who didn't want to fund the publication of his best seller :)

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

I was just looking at this kickstarter Pairs is a card deck based off of Patrick Rothfuss's Name of the Wind, and other FANTASY - SFF artists

Pairs: A New Classic Pub Game

"Star Citizen" is a Kickstarter PC game, not a book, but it is SF and has a tremendous amount of written back story and detail. It has also raised in excess of $30 ($35?) million so far and promises to create a persistent universe on the Net that will be in advance of any SF project ever envisioned to date.

I'm not putting in a link because the Kickstarter period had ended and it is raising further funds by direct subscription.

Thanks for that link, Jeannette. That Baby Cthulu deck is tempting. And the Princess deck looks like it has cool art.

Hey guys,

I have a Kickstarter project that fits this forum. It's a science fiction ebook I wrote called "Metallic Heaven." It's a classic UFO story. Check it out!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...

If I find any other interesting science fiction kickstarter projects, I will be sure to post it here.

There have been several highly successful kickstarter projectors (some of them mentioned here). I just hope that nobody poisons the well. For instance, I know people who have become much more reticent about donating to video game kickstarter campaigns after getting burned by a few bad ones.

That said, preparation and communication are key. The informed I am, and the more prepared the author appears, the more likely I am to offer support.

My Kickstarter launches on Tuesday, May 6th. It includes an anthology of fantasy short fiction with some pretty fantastic authors (which I'm extremely excited about). The authors include Larry Correia, David Farland, Ed Greenwood, Matt Forbeck, Dave Gross, John Helfers, Steven S. Long Mel Odom, Jean Rabe, Lucy A. Snyder, Michael A. Stackpole, and Elizabeth Vaughan. I've even got Larry Elmore lined up to do a cover for the anthology.

You can read about the project at www.aetaltis.com

When the project goes live and I have the link, I'll post it! Please check it out. I hope it will be the first of many projects like this!

As of 36 minutes ago, the World of Aetaltis: Temple of Modren Kickstarter I posted about back on the 3rd has launched! Click here to check it out on Kickstarter!

Thanks! Marc

I am planning to launch a kickstarter project, but have delayed the launch until I can develop some followers via other social media. I don't want to break rules, but hoped I could ask a general question first. Does anyone have any suggestions about developing those followers? I write that slightly in jest, but mostly I'm serious. Probably 95% of the followers I'm finding on Twitter and Facebook are more interested in their own work or in developing inactive followers than in sharing a real communication. I see the hypocricy of my statement, since I want followers, too. But, I truly want input. I want to use Kickstarter more to develop readers than to develop cash. Let me know what you think or if I should start a new topic for Kickstarter help seekers.

Developing that network in advance is a very good idea. The best way to achieve your goal is to truly interact with the group in a way unrelated to your Kickstarter plans. Choose a group you're truly interested in and get involved. Take part in conversations. Share interesting material. Volunteer to help make the community more successful. If you pick three or four groups focused on topics you care about, this will be easy and a lot of fun.

Once you've established a relationship, let the people in the group provide feedback. People are much more generous with their opinions than they are with their money. Once they feel like they have a stake in the project, they are far more likely to want to contribute to it and/or spread the word.

This may sound like manipulation, but the reality is that a lot of "creators" are so heads down on their projects all the time that they don't take time to create these relationships. You'll find that it's a blast and you'll wish you'd done it sooner!

My kickstarter is for a collection of science fiction(ish) short stories. Stories include a dancing robot, food delivery gremlin, retired super hero, burger eating zombie and of course the titular invisible boy. Check it out! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...

Artist Julie Dillon has a kickstarter to make a book of her fantasy artwork. I believe she's also planning one for her science fiction work later. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...

Hello everyone! My kickstarter is nearing its end. I don't foresee it succeeding (largely due to many shortcomings on my part) but I would like to post it here anyway!

I am asking for funding to produce/publish the last three books in my Science Fiction series: NANO. The first book is already published, but the time and money took its toll so subsequent releases will be delayed until money permits. That said, something like a successful kickstarter would expedite that process by quite a bit! If nothing else, thank you for taking the time to check it out.

Rain or shine, rich or poor, tomorrow or a thousand years... I will release my other books! Be on the lookout for them!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...

Dear all,

I'm running a Kickstarter campaign for an anthology project until the end of November . The money raised will be used to create and publish a science fiction and fantasy short story anthology. There will be a mixture of stories by invited indie authors and stories submitted during an open call.

Here is the link to the campaign:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...

If you want to help out, please spread the word, pledge any amount on the campaign page, and / or submit a story to the open call.

Thanks in advance and all the best,

Kai